Career FI - Does the school care?
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Career FI - Does the school care?
Hi,
I've done a few searches to make sure I'm not starting an old thread, and I've got some useful information on pay, conditions and the shortage of IR/CPL instructors.
However, I didn't manage to find any reference to a Flying School treating a career FI any different to an ATPL hour building FI prior to the big job. (For PPL instructing that is).
I've heard some moans from local students and the School top brass about no continuity with Instructors, and the hope that a "mature" instructor with no Airline ambitions would be a good thing for both the school and the students...but...
Would a school actually give preferential treatment in terms of selection/pay/conditions/permanent full time job to an older, local FI? Or, as there always seems to be a healthy supply of ATPL's, why bother?
cheers
Gugnunc
I've done a few searches to make sure I'm not starting an old thread, and I've got some useful information on pay, conditions and the shortage of IR/CPL instructors.
However, I didn't manage to find any reference to a Flying School treating a career FI any different to an ATPL hour building FI prior to the big job. (For PPL instructing that is).
I've heard some moans from local students and the School top brass about no continuity with Instructors, and the hope that a "mature" instructor with no Airline ambitions would be a good thing for both the school and the students...but...
Would a school actually give preferential treatment in terms of selection/pay/conditions/permanent full time job to an older, local FI? Or, as there always seems to be a healthy supply of ATPL's, why bother?
cheers
Gugnunc
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I'm hoping so myself, in fact I'm banking on it. I've turned 50 myself taught kids (11-18) for 13 years, adults for 4 years and run several educational businesses. I need a change of direction so building on the 250+ hours I've got as a PPL I'm taking a year out to give it a go.
Currently doing ATPL ground school with BGS and then will do (hopefully) FI and CPL training next spring. That might give me 10 years of instructing (not sure when you have to hang your boots up!)
It may all never happen and I may never get a job but I didn't want to look back in a few years time and think "I wish!"
Good luck!
AZ
Currently doing ATPL ground school with BGS and then will do (hopefully) FI and CPL training next spring. That might give me 10 years of instructing (not sure when you have to hang your boots up!)
It may all never happen and I may never get a job but I didn't want to look back in a few years time and think "I wish!"
Good luck!
AZ
Last edited by aztec25; 17th Oct 2005 at 13:46.
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I know for a fact that if you continue to keep youre medical u can go on instructing. One of the instructors where i gained my PPL, who examined me and is one of the best instructors i have flown with is 65!
Im going to become a career instructor because it is something i will love, being 17 that means i have about 50years of instructing in me!!
see you all at the top
Nick
Im going to become a career instructor because it is something i will love, being 17 that means i have about 50years of instructing in me!!
see you all at the top
Nick
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If it is all so short sighted, how (or why) do people become CPL/IR/ME instructors? Are they all retired airline pros?
Do the schools then rely on 250 hr ATPLS for PPL, and 10k+ hr 60+ yr ex V-Force ex Concorde jocks with large BA/Singapore/Emirates pensions to do the advanced stuff?
Nick/Az - good luck to you. I take it you have private incomes!
Gug
Do the schools then rely on 250 hr ATPLS for PPL, and 10k+ hr 60+ yr ex V-Force ex Concorde jocks with large BA/Singapore/Emirates pensions to do the advanced stuff?
Nick/Az - good luck to you. I take it you have private incomes!
Gug
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Career FI - Does the school care? - in short no. Perhaps when the airlines are hiring and they are they are loosing a few instructors to them they may care a teeny weensy bit (or pretend to!), but when the situation returns to normal it is back business as usual.
Ex Airline and RAF jocks in the main couldn't be bothered with it much - particularly if they have to work for the abysmal employers we do.
Ex airline chappies are getting good jobs (and pay) doing type rating training on simulators so why would they bother with prancing about the sky in all weathers and week-ends for a bag of KP's finest in some beat out ancient C150?
Ex Airline and RAF jocks in the main couldn't be bothered with it much - particularly if they have to work for the abysmal employers we do.
Ex airline chappies are getting good jobs (and pay) doing type rating training on simulators so why would they bother with prancing about the sky in all weathers and week-ends for a bag of KP's finest in some beat out ancient C150?
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Like just about every other price in this world, the price paid for instructing is governed by market forces. When the supply of cheap instructors dries up, then the wages will rise to maintain the supply!
Originally the instructor rating was used as a route to get the necessary hours/experience element of a CPL. Hence there were plenty of fresh new PPL instructors around all busily hour building but not instructing too well because of this. Then they introduced the BCPL in the hope that holders of this would either go commercial or instruct. Not a bit of it - instructing was still a route to get the necessary experience. Today is the same. Commercial jobs are hard to come by, so many get their CPL, then do an instructor course so that they can build cheap (free) hours to make themselves more attractive to a commercial employer.
Making a profit as a flying school is hard enough as it is, so all costs must be minimised - including the cost of instructors!
On the helicopter side the situation is different. As a CPL(H) is not the start of a route to the airlines, there are fewer people around who hold the appropriate instructor ratings and the instructor fees are much more realistic.
Years ago I used to have fun comparing my hourly fee as a fixed wing instructor, BX examiner, ATPL holder e.t.c. with my colleagues in other recreations. I discovered that my hourly rate was less than a basic horse riding instructor, a music (piano) teacher a driving instructor, a scuba diving instructor, a golf pro, a microlite instructor and (incredibly) a model helicopter flying instructor!
As others have said, you will do well if you have a private income but I made it a hobby for 25 years and enjoyed trying to do a good job. The satisfaction is there but until the flying instructor rating is no longer a route to an airline position, the fees paid will continue to be cr*p
P.P.
Originally the instructor rating was used as a route to get the necessary hours/experience element of a CPL. Hence there were plenty of fresh new PPL instructors around all busily hour building but not instructing too well because of this. Then they introduced the BCPL in the hope that holders of this would either go commercial or instruct. Not a bit of it - instructing was still a route to get the necessary experience. Today is the same. Commercial jobs are hard to come by, so many get their CPL, then do an instructor course so that they can build cheap (free) hours to make themselves more attractive to a commercial employer.
Making a profit as a flying school is hard enough as it is, so all costs must be minimised - including the cost of instructors!
On the helicopter side the situation is different. As a CPL(H) is not the start of a route to the airlines, there are fewer people around who hold the appropriate instructor ratings and the instructor fees are much more realistic.
Years ago I used to have fun comparing my hourly fee as a fixed wing instructor, BX examiner, ATPL holder e.t.c. with my colleagues in other recreations. I discovered that my hourly rate was less than a basic horse riding instructor, a music (piano) teacher a driving instructor, a scuba diving instructor, a golf pro, a microlite instructor and (incredibly) a model helicopter flying instructor!
As others have said, you will do well if you have a private income but I made it a hobby for 25 years and enjoyed trying to do a good job. The satisfaction is there but until the flying instructor rating is no longer a route to an airline position, the fees paid will continue to be cr*p
P.P.
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If you want to be a career instructer you should consider Microlights or Helicopters; they make more money, and are not competing with wannabe airline pilots who have always dominated the GroupA/SEP training world. Who said the self improver route was DEAD!
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I've never flown a helicopter, but they sound like fun.
So here's a hypothetical question. Suppose I decided to give up flying FW aircraft for a living and learn to fly helicopters, how many helicopter hours would I need (including training) before I could become a helicopter FI? Startng from ATPL(A) with lapsed FI rating.
So here's a hypothetical question. Suppose I decided to give up flying FW aircraft for a living and learn to fly helicopters, how many helicopter hours would I need (including training) before I could become a helicopter FI? Startng from ATPL(A) with lapsed FI rating.
Rivet Gun,
250hrs (in helis) before you can start the FIC(H). 30hr course. Therefore 280ish before you can become an FI(H)(R).
Another few hoops to jump through, then you can get the (R) bit removed.
LASORS, as usual, has all the answers.
HTH,
Bravo73
250hrs (in helis) before you can start the FIC(H). 30hr course. Therefore 280ish before you can become an FI(H)(R).
Another few hoops to jump through, then you can get the (R) bit removed.
LASORS, as usual, has all the answers.
HTH,
Bravo73
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I don't think that most schools give a toss to be honest.
I have yet to find a school that has a training or development plan for instructors. They do not review flight instructor performance or monitor standardisation in any way whatsoever.
Oh but they are great at taking large amounts of cash off joe public and passing along peanuts to the instructor.
Aviation is a bit of a joke until you secure a job with a "decent" airline (unfortunately they are a dyeing breed).
I have yet to find a school that has a training or development plan for instructors. They do not review flight instructor performance or monitor standardisation in any way whatsoever.
Oh but they are great at taking large amounts of cash off joe public and passing along peanuts to the instructor.
Aviation is a bit of a joke until you secure a job with a "decent" airline (unfortunately they are a dyeing breed).
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In short there are a lot of people at the bottom of the food
chain in this industry - There IS no shortage and never will
be.
There is a plentiful supply of obsessive blokes willing to work for bugga all despite the fact that in this industry there is often no salary, no holiday pay, no insurance, little ongoing security, low wages, antisocial hours.....
Does that help?
chain in this industry - There IS no shortage and never will
be.
There is a plentiful supply of obsessive blokes willing to work for bugga all despite the fact that in this industry there is often no salary, no holiday pay, no insurance, little ongoing security, low wages, antisocial hours.....
Does that help?
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RVR800 - Mrs Unfazed was just looking over my shoulder and felt the need to comment as follows (hands over keyboard to her indoors)......
You lot take the biscuit ! Imagine working long hours for little or no pay, then you come home and e-mail everybody to tell them how awful it all is, what is going on with your brains ? !!
.....I wouldn't normally post her comments but they made me laugh !!!
You lot take the biscuit ! Imagine working long hours for little or no pay, then you come home and e-mail everybody to tell them how awful it all is, what is going on with your brains ? !!
.....I wouldn't normally post her comments but they made me laugh !!!
Not Good Airline Material
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I hope to have the chance to fly full time at some point - whether instructing or otherwise.
Seems to me that the only way someone of maturish years (I'm 40 now) can make a half-decent living in aviation is to get all the bells and whistles for CPL/Multi/IR training or shell-out megabucks for a type rating and take their chances.
In the meantime its part-time flight instruction only until the day that I acheive the above, or a bog standard FI can expect to earn at least as much as a bog standard driving instructor.
That surely wouldn't be too much to ask?
Seems to me that the only way someone of maturish years (I'm 40 now) can make a half-decent living in aviation is to get all the bells and whistles for CPL/Multi/IR training or shell-out megabucks for a type rating and take their chances.
In the meantime its part-time flight instruction only until the day that I acheive the above, or a bog standard FI can expect to earn at least as much as a bog standard driving instructor.
That surely wouldn't be too much to ask?
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Blackshift - I understand your views and share the sentiment
You would think that a flying instructor could make a similar income as a driving instructor and that would be great. I suspect that the reason we can't is for some or all of the following:
1 - The weather !
2 - Not as much demand
3 - Less competition
4 - More stringent regulations and licensing / medical costs
5 - More expensive to qualify
6- Exploitative attitude due to quick turnover of instructors
Sad but true !
You would think that a flying instructor could make a similar income as a driving instructor and that would be great. I suspect that the reason we can't is for some or all of the following:
1 - The weather !
2 - Not as much demand
3 - Less competition
4 - More stringent regulations and licensing / medical costs
5 - More expensive to qualify
6- Exploitative attitude due to quick turnover of instructors
Sad but true !
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Unfazed -
Yup, the silence is deafening. I can understand the smaller club based schools having no margins to invest in the future, but I would have thought the larger Training companies would be able to think more strategically.
My apologies for applying sensible business philosophies learnt in other sectors to aviation.
I'll get my coat.......................
Yup, the silence is deafening. I can understand the smaller club based schools having no margins to invest in the future, but I would have thought the larger Training companies would be able to think more strategically.
My apologies for applying sensible business philosophies learnt in other sectors to aviation.
I'll get my coat.......................
Not Good Airline Material
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Unfazed,
From my recollection of first-year Economics, factors 3-5 should provide an upward pressure on instructors pay; 3 would increase the opportunity for profits from the customer without being undercut in the marketplace; 4 and 5 would tend to reduce supply and therefore increase the value of an instructor to an employer.
However these factors are undoubtedly outweighed by 1,2 and especially 6, which is the real problem within the industry.
There are probably a few out there who would probably pay for the opportunity of using an instructors job as a springboard for the airlines, and probably many who are in denial about the fact that, all things considered, they probably do.
The exploitative attitude therefore works both ways.
From my recollection of first-year Economics, factors 3-5 should provide an upward pressure on instructors pay; 3 would increase the opportunity for profits from the customer without being undercut in the marketplace; 4 and 5 would tend to reduce supply and therefore increase the value of an instructor to an employer.
However these factors are undoubtedly outweighed by 1,2 and especially 6, which is the real problem within the industry.
There are probably a few out there who would probably pay for the opportunity of using an instructors job as a springboard for the airlines, and probably many who are in denial about the fact that, all things considered, they probably do.
The exploitative attitude therefore works both ways.