New ATPL Pilots
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Send in the clowns.
Dreadfully sorry to use the incorrect term old bean. Its just I don't bother with such GA terms anymore.
You set standard as a back up for RVSM etc as mentioned above. If you set regional blah blah are you expected to ask each Air Traffic Unit what it is? That would work with Maastrict I'm sure.
Its a GA thing and has been sneked into BACX (so I'm told) by the ever increasing FI fraternity sailing up the Mersey to MAN.
WWW
How long have you been an airline pilot? How many "cadets" (well ex-cadets)have you experienced?
Weren't you GA until fairly recently?
I ask because I see none of the fear you talk of in our TEP's (new term for ex-cadets). In fact they do rather well flying into some of the world's most challenging fields, particularly BOG (alas no longer). On the two occasions I have had minor incidents (with TEP's) they have reacted quickly and correctly.
Also, unlike many airlines, they are allowed to land in more than 15 knots across,call STOP, touch speedbrakes and flaps etc.
Oh well, maybe we just got the best?
Dreadfully sorry to use the incorrect term old bean. Its just I don't bother with such GA terms anymore.
You set standard as a back up for RVSM etc as mentioned above. If you set regional blah blah are you expected to ask each Air Traffic Unit what it is? That would work with Maastrict I'm sure.
Its a GA thing and has been sneked into BACX (so I'm told) by the ever increasing FI fraternity sailing up the Mersey to MAN.
WWW
How long have you been an airline pilot? How many "cadets" (well ex-cadets)have you experienced?
Weren't you GA until fairly recently?
I ask because I see none of the fear you talk of in our TEP's (new term for ex-cadets). In fact they do rather well flying into some of the world's most challenging fields, particularly BOG (alas no longer). On the two occasions I have had minor incidents (with TEP's) they have reacted quickly and correctly.
Also, unlike many airlines, they are allowed to land in more than 15 knots across,call STOP, touch speedbrakes and flaps etc.
Oh well, maybe we just got the best?
Last edited by normal_nigel; 8th Sep 2005 at 12:11.
normal_nigel - sorry but the BA cadets were not as good as the Aer Lingus or Airtours cadets in the bar room opinion of the Flying Instructors I worked with. I left GA employment nearly 5 years ago and am now a Captain on the 737 and soon 319.
My observations are nothing dramatic and I expect they disappear after just a short time in the job. Anyone with less than a thousand hours TT hasn't really seen or experienced much so its only natural that they are a bit more 'flighty' than someone who spent a few years knocking about the world of GA.
Oh and ours land in 25kts X wind, can't call Stop, and do pretty well (flying 6 sector days) into some challenging airports.
Cheers
WWW
My observations are nothing dramatic and I expect they disappear after just a short time in the job. Anyone with less than a thousand hours TT hasn't really seen or experienced much so its only natural that they are a bit more 'flighty' than someone who spent a few years knocking about the world of GA.
Oh and ours land in 25kts X wind, can't call Stop, and do pretty well (flying 6 sector days) into some challenging airports.
Cheers
WWW
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N_N, I'm not sure if you deliberately go out of your way to sound like a twonk or if it's the BA 'way.'
BA cadets have always been pretty good, but they aren't the be-all and end all of aviation.
I have been in some pretty dicey spots with all sorts of pilots (ex-raf, ex-instructors and cadets) and all have coped well. Some better than others, but no group stands out particularily from any other.
N_N, have you ever actually been an instructor? If not, then what do you really know about the FI world? Walk a mile in someone's shoes and all that...
I think WWW has it right when talking about not panicking, that seems to be the biggest difference.
BA cadets have always been pretty good, but they aren't the be-all and end all of aviation.
I have been in some pretty dicey spots with all sorts of pilots (ex-raf, ex-instructors and cadets) and all have coped well. Some better than others, but no group stands out particularily from any other.
N_N, have you ever actually been an instructor? If not, then what do you really know about the FI world? Walk a mile in someone's shoes and all that...
I think WWW has it right when talking about not panicking, that seems to be the biggest difference.
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Twonk???
If you are going to insult me please do it properly.
I am a training captain but have never instructed on light aircraft.
WWW
Admirable anti-BAism. However if you are correct why do you think EI or Airtours were better then?
I would expect the standard to be dictated by the school and the instruction, as a random sample of cadets from the three companies should be roughly the same (my earlier comments re "the best" were TIC).
Could it be that your bar room talk was a reflection on the poor standard of instruction given to the BA people, or just people talking bollocks and letting their anti Big Airways chips surface?
I would also go so far as to say your airline experience is limited.
Do you think you are better suited to a command than an ex-cadet? Is you FI background relevent or do you think their airline training is more suited?
I ask because we are now seeing the first ex-cadets from the 1987 Prestwick/Oxford era with 744 Training Captain jobs in their mid 30's. They seem to be doing a pretty good job as well.
If you are going to insult me please do it properly.
I am a training captain but have never instructed on light aircraft.
WWW
sorry but the BA cadets were not as good as the Aer Lingus or Airtours cadets in the bar room opinion of the Flying Instructors I worked with.
I would expect the standard to be dictated by the school and the instruction, as a random sample of cadets from the three companies should be roughly the same (my earlier comments re "the best" were TIC).
Could it be that your bar room talk was a reflection on the poor standard of instruction given to the BA people, or just people talking bollocks and letting their anti Big Airways chips surface?
I would also go so far as to say your airline experience is limited.
Do you think you are better suited to a command than an ex-cadet? Is you FI background relevent or do you think their airline training is more suited?
I ask because we are now seeing the first ex-cadets from the 1987 Prestwick/Oxford era with 744 Training Captain jobs in their mid 30's. They seem to be doing a pretty good job as well.
No anti-BAism.
Just that the Lingus courses had high esprit de corps more banter and generally worked better as a team and seemed more grateful of the opportunity they had landed. The Airtours courses were similarly thought of and seemed to contain a high proportion of Total Aviation People, i.e. they might have been keen PPL'rs, in the Air Cadets or possibly even spotters.
BA cadets were similarly fine people - nobody ever said they weren't and frankly I think you've got a chip on your shoulder about BA bashing. BA cadets were nothing special and nothing bad and in the opinion of some instructors other airlines seemed to choose better cadets. And, Yes I didn't get a BA cadetship but then neither did I get a BMI or Airtours or Lingus or FlyBe or Britannia or Atlantique one either and I've not got room on my shoulders for that many chips - trust me, I'm over it.
My thoughts on the subject were posted with the caveat that I have both been an airline cadet flying instructor and am now an airline Captain who gets to fly with cadet FO's. Thereby establishing that I have a possibly interesting insight into the thread topic.
I have a sense that you think ego is entering the debate. I couldn't give a stuff if your airline is bigger than mine, whether you think I'm inexperienced or whether or not 'your' cadets are better than 'our' cadets! I'm sure BA suits you but trust me I can't think of anything worse than having to drag myself to Heathrow to go on BA shorthaul tours of Europe. Longhaul I've no interest in anyway.
I reiterate my one and only point which is that I think very low houred FO's an be more panicky. This is understandable and disappears with hours. Those with perhaps a few years flying GA kit have had many more scares and close shaves and perhaps as a result are slightly more steely eyed. Pop psychology I know.
Cheers
WWW
Just that the Lingus courses had high esprit de corps more banter and generally worked better as a team and seemed more grateful of the opportunity they had landed. The Airtours courses were similarly thought of and seemed to contain a high proportion of Total Aviation People, i.e. they might have been keen PPL'rs, in the Air Cadets or possibly even spotters.
BA cadets were similarly fine people - nobody ever said they weren't and frankly I think you've got a chip on your shoulder about BA bashing. BA cadets were nothing special and nothing bad and in the opinion of some instructors other airlines seemed to choose better cadets. And, Yes I didn't get a BA cadetship but then neither did I get a BMI or Airtours or Lingus or FlyBe or Britannia or Atlantique one either and I've not got room on my shoulders for that many chips - trust me, I'm over it.
My thoughts on the subject were posted with the caveat that I have both been an airline cadet flying instructor and am now an airline Captain who gets to fly with cadet FO's. Thereby establishing that I have a possibly interesting insight into the thread topic.
I have a sense that you think ego is entering the debate. I couldn't give a stuff if your airline is bigger than mine, whether you think I'm inexperienced or whether or not 'your' cadets are better than 'our' cadets! I'm sure BA suits you but trust me I can't think of anything worse than having to drag myself to Heathrow to go on BA shorthaul tours of Europe. Longhaul I've no interest in anyway.
I reiterate my one and only point which is that I think very low houred FO's an be more panicky. This is understandable and disappears with hours. Those with perhaps a few years flying GA kit have had many more scares and close shaves and perhaps as a result are slightly more steely eyed. Pop psychology I know.
Cheers
WWW
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No chip. No need to have. I'm where I want to be.
However, some people who aren't, display the chips
You may have instructed cadets at college and flown with them. This indeed gives you a fine insight and you are entitled to your opinion.
As does mine, having trained cadets and their trainers
The frozen rabit in the headlights I haven't seen.
I've seen inexperience from new TEP's and I've seen appalling multi crew performance and also dangerous arrogance from FI's.
The inexperience is far easier to remedy, in fact it fixes itself.
The other doesn't.
However, some people who aren't, display the chips
You may have instructed cadets at college and flown with them. This indeed gives you a fine insight and you are entitled to your opinion.
As does mine, having trained cadets and their trainers
The frozen rabit in the headlights I haven't seen.
I've seen inexperience from new TEP's and I've seen appalling multi crew performance and also dangerous arrogance from FI's.
The inexperience is far easier to remedy, in fact it fixes itself.
The other doesn't.
Last edited by normal_nigel; 8th Sep 2005 at 13:12.
Hey, I'm 30 in the LHS of a new Jet out in the region where I want to be home every night to the gorgeous woman I'm marrying next week.
There ain't no chips here either.
WWW
There ain't no chips here either.
WWW
Good lord! I've just done a search on Normal_Nigels posting histrory... talk about reinforcing a stereotype:
1. Doesn't like Flying Club types 'breaking out'.
There's a lot of Flying Club types that break into Commercial aviation and suddenly know everything there is to know.
2. Doesn't like the common people who can't afford to fly with the right airline.
What a load of crap. The bucket and spade brigade don't just
make charter flying unpleasant they make life unpleasant with their underclass chav ways, lager, B+H and their children. A curse on Britain thats getting worse. Decent working class has given way to an underclass who all travel on charter flights.
Now I'm not saying BA passengers are all wonderful. On the contrary. However I know where I prefer to sit.
I'm sorry you didn't enjoy your longhaul experience with BA. Obviously M class isn't all its cracked up to be. I wouldn't know. I haven't had to travel anything less than club for about 8 years.
Oh well you enjoy your knees up to your chin on My Travel to Sandford. I'll stick to the flat bed and champers as usual.
Another thing, why was the original thread locked? We're the boys not playing nicely enough for the sterile little world of pprune??
3. Doesn't sound like much sympathy for the Military pilots either.
Topic: Red Arrows To Finish - Has Tony Gone Too Far?? (Merged x 2)
Yeah
Who cares?
Less egos for us to put up with when they join the real world.
NN
4. But he does seem to have a high regard for himself.
What do you think pilots should get paid? £20000, £30000pa? My mate who is a barrister and has trained and spent time working up his profession (almost identical time to me) earns £265000 pa.
He doesn't sign for an aircraft with $2 billion of liability as every BA captain does every day at work. And neither do you so don't be bitter about pilots pay just because you don't earn it.
I have far better qualifications than him and law training is just time consuming. I don't begrudge him his money, I just think BA captains should earn about the same. Yes I am being serious.
Now answer my question. What do you think pilots should be paid? (a tube driver gets about £40000 pa I'm told).
Engineers do a crucial important job but they aint there when the **** hits the fan in flight.
NN
---
Normal_Nigel - I don't think you are as I know quite a few BA pilots and they are all charming. But somehow, I cannot for the life of me think how, BA pilots have acquired something of a 'reputation'....
Cheers
WWW
1. Doesn't like Flying Club types 'breaking out'.
There's a lot of Flying Club types that break into Commercial aviation and suddenly know everything there is to know.
2. Doesn't like the common people who can't afford to fly with the right airline.
What a load of crap. The bucket and spade brigade don't just
make charter flying unpleasant they make life unpleasant with their underclass chav ways, lager, B+H and their children. A curse on Britain thats getting worse. Decent working class has given way to an underclass who all travel on charter flights.
Now I'm not saying BA passengers are all wonderful. On the contrary. However I know where I prefer to sit.
I'm sorry you didn't enjoy your longhaul experience with BA. Obviously M class isn't all its cracked up to be. I wouldn't know. I haven't had to travel anything less than club for about 8 years.
Oh well you enjoy your knees up to your chin on My Travel to Sandford. I'll stick to the flat bed and champers as usual.
Another thing, why was the original thread locked? We're the boys not playing nicely enough for the sterile little world of pprune??
3. Doesn't sound like much sympathy for the Military pilots either.
Topic: Red Arrows To Finish - Has Tony Gone Too Far?? (Merged x 2)
Yeah
Who cares?
Less egos for us to put up with when they join the real world.
NN
4. But he does seem to have a high regard for himself.
What do you think pilots should get paid? £20000, £30000pa? My mate who is a barrister and has trained and spent time working up his profession (almost identical time to me) earns £265000 pa.
He doesn't sign for an aircraft with $2 billion of liability as every BA captain does every day at work. And neither do you so don't be bitter about pilots pay just because you don't earn it.
I have far better qualifications than him and law training is just time consuming. I don't begrudge him his money, I just think BA captains should earn about the same. Yes I am being serious.
Now answer my question. What do you think pilots should be paid? (a tube driver gets about £40000 pa I'm told).
Engineers do a crucial important job but they aint there when the **** hits the fan in flight.
NN
---
Normal_Nigel - I don't think you are as I know quite a few BA pilots and they are all charming. But somehow, I cannot for the life of me think how, BA pilots have acquired something of a 'reputation'....
Cheers
WWW
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Is that because I tell it like I see it and don't butter up to the Old Boys PPrune way of things?
Or does it amuse you to take 4 quotes (all I still stand by) from the last 4 years or so and post them with no context?
Also www, you have to remember I've been in the airline game more than 5 minutes, and have seen a lot more than you.
After all, you were scraping around BALPA employement confernences as late as 1999 were you not?
Maybe when you have served some time you may remove your rose tinted specs.
Now back to the debate...
Or does it amuse you to take 4 quotes (all I still stand by) from the last 4 years or so and post them with no context?
Also www, you have to remember I've been in the airline game more than 5 minutes, and have seen a lot more than you.
After all, you were scraping around BALPA employement confernences as late as 1999 were you not?
Maybe when you have served some time you may remove your rose tinted specs.
Now back to the debate...
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Well as everyone is hiding their dislikes behind "in my experience " here goes.
I have been flying 17 years, have 14000 hrs, 2000 as an instructor and am/have been a line trainer on 5 types. 7000 in some of the worst bush,warzone areas in the world from light twins upto mil transports. the balance as f/o and cpt on 737ng.
In the first existance the most inflexible non achieveing bush drivers were the Brits , ex raf followed by FI types. Too much attitude, obsession with petty rules not comensurate with the conditions. Very few adapted, most legged iit back to blighty yelping about unproffessionalism or any other security blanket.
In my later reincranation the worst captains were the self abusers/FI types. Like Scared rabbits in the headlights on say a nasty night in the balkans, cockpit crm gradient that franz klammer could ski down. (reverting under stress maybe to a windy day in a pa28) Now the shining stars are the cadets we have employed, bright, knowledgeable and talented. They put their senior Ex fi fos to shame in all situations. Except probably bashing circuit after circuit in a pa28. But then thats not 65 tonnes into a cat 3 airfield in greece 200 people in the back. Thats what they were trained for. Dragging in that pa28 paid off because these guys fly the jet well. Better than someone with old skills to loose. and i include myself in that grouping.
WWW the danger in this country is that people who made it on their own against the will of the establishment become bigger career bigots once in the system, than the dianosaurs that caused their problems in the early stage of their career. Nothing like new money eh. Fact ..approved trianing is the future. I dont agree but thats how it is.
I date you from the 1999 balpa conference and remember some of your attempts to get work. Youve done well but have considered you may still harbour a grudge subconciously against the rich kids. We each have our tales of abuse and rejection , I now judge each by their performance not their age or training...........Except ex raf instructors who have to get a management job of any sort to sate their egos. Care to comment nigel. Or where is flashhart when you need a laugh
I have been flying 17 years, have 14000 hrs, 2000 as an instructor and am/have been a line trainer on 5 types. 7000 in some of the worst bush,warzone areas in the world from light twins upto mil transports. the balance as f/o and cpt on 737ng.
In the first existance the most inflexible non achieveing bush drivers were the Brits , ex raf followed by FI types. Too much attitude, obsession with petty rules not comensurate with the conditions. Very few adapted, most legged iit back to blighty yelping about unproffessionalism or any other security blanket.
In my later reincranation the worst captains were the self abusers/FI types. Like Scared rabbits in the headlights on say a nasty night in the balkans, cockpit crm gradient that franz klammer could ski down. (reverting under stress maybe to a windy day in a pa28) Now the shining stars are the cadets we have employed, bright, knowledgeable and talented. They put their senior Ex fi fos to shame in all situations. Except probably bashing circuit after circuit in a pa28. But then thats not 65 tonnes into a cat 3 airfield in greece 200 people in the back. Thats what they were trained for. Dragging in that pa28 paid off because these guys fly the jet well. Better than someone with old skills to loose. and i include myself in that grouping.
WWW the danger in this country is that people who made it on their own against the will of the establishment become bigger career bigots once in the system, than the dianosaurs that caused their problems in the early stage of their career. Nothing like new money eh. Fact ..approved trianing is the future. I dont agree but thats how it is.
I date you from the 1999 balpa conference and remember some of your attempts to get work. Youve done well but have considered you may still harbour a grudge subconciously against the rich kids. We each have our tales of abuse and rejection , I now judge each by their performance not their age or training...........Except ex raf instructors who have to get a management job of any sort to sate their egos. Care to comment nigel. Or where is flashhart when you need a laugh
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Good Lord I've been searching WWW's history
So an endorsement of the scheme and an admission of failure to get in.
No chips at all then and no bias as to who were the "best " cadets. In fact, I think you must be the instructor that our guys tell us about.
Oh and if you did Met in 1998, have you only had a licence for 7 years?
Your experience overwhelms me.
Bart
Career bigots.
Accurate phrase. They are also the type that likes to see the door close behind them.
Interesting observations from your bush days etc.
Bit of a different perspective from the " airline FO's can't fly PA28's but I'm not jealous honestly" brigade.
Hey I got TWO letters from BA telling me I was not good enough for their training scheme
British Airways have been putting 200hr guys and gals into heavy jets operating out of the London TMA since 1963.
No chips at all then and no bias as to who were the "best " cadets. In fact, I think you must be the instructor that our guys tell us about.
Oh and if you did Met in 1998, have you only had a licence for 7 years?
Your experience overwhelms me.
Bart
Career bigots.
Accurate phrase. They are also the type that likes to see the door close behind them.
Interesting observations from your bush days etc.
Bit of a different perspective from the " airline FO's can't fly PA28's but I'm not jealous honestly" brigade.
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Btw w.w.w
A cadet may get a command after 3yrs from school, say 3000 hrs, i dont necessarily agree with that hr level in general (see ryr posts), however you as a first job at easy may have been promoted with about the same hr/time frame on the jet. Your previous is therefore irrelevant as you were both deemed suitable. From my greater time in the industry observing i would wager than in the enviroment you have been assessed in the cadet would revert under pressure to a more jet like response. Human factors mate, not a dig. I know i dont always fall back on the right experince block under pressure.
Maybe it this that bothers you and the FI fraternity about cadets. They are more suited to the enviroment for the future.
I am a self abuser as well but appreciate when i sit next to a talented youth and take pride when they adapt some of my philosophies combine it with their current knowledge to become a better pilot than me. Maybe not as experienced, but better suited for the future
A cadet may get a command after 3yrs from school, say 3000 hrs, i dont necessarily agree with that hr level in general (see ryr posts), however you as a first job at easy may have been promoted with about the same hr/time frame on the jet. Your previous is therefore irrelevant as you were both deemed suitable. From my greater time in the industry observing i would wager than in the enviroment you have been assessed in the cadet would revert under pressure to a more jet like response. Human factors mate, not a dig. I know i dont always fall back on the right experince block under pressure.
Maybe it this that bothers you and the FI fraternity about cadets. They are more suited to the enviroment for the future.
I am a self abuser as well but appreciate when i sit next to a talented youth and take pride when they adapt some of my philosophies combine it with their current knowledge to become a better pilot than me. Maybe not as experienced, but better suited for the future
Oh I love a good debate me.
1. I never said cadets were crap or anything approaching that. I said the only slight difference was being slightly more flighty. Maybe. Other were having much more of a go and I was essentially saying there is no difference, it doesn't really matter if you did 5000hrs GA or not. Thats an ENDORSEMENT of cadets a REFUTATION that there is anything wrong or different or lacking in them. OK - get that into your heads if nothing else.
2. Normal_Nigel, I've been defending cadet training for many many years now as that quote shows. There are always people who scoff that 200hr guys should not be put into large jets and I've always pointed out the BA have done it very successfully for decades. I don't hate BA either. Yes I applied to them and no I didn't get in. But in the end its worked out much much better for me. I was lucky I didn't get accepted because things worked out better in the long run. But you never know that at the time of course.
3. I don't claim any vast experience. I just accurately imply what my experience is. An Jerez FI and a current 737 Captain. Attempting to refute my view by pointing out that you have more hours, fly a bigger airplane, are a training captain or WHATEVER is a fairly weak strategy.
So lets here people's views and insights and stop waving willys at each other, please.
Cheers
WWW
1. I never said cadets were crap or anything approaching that. I said the only slight difference was being slightly more flighty. Maybe. Other were having much more of a go and I was essentially saying there is no difference, it doesn't really matter if you did 5000hrs GA or not. Thats an ENDORSEMENT of cadets a REFUTATION that there is anything wrong or different or lacking in them. OK - get that into your heads if nothing else.
2. Normal_Nigel, I've been defending cadet training for many many years now as that quote shows. There are always people who scoff that 200hr guys should not be put into large jets and I've always pointed out the BA have done it very successfully for decades. I don't hate BA either. Yes I applied to them and no I didn't get in. But in the end its worked out much much better for me. I was lucky I didn't get accepted because things worked out better in the long run. But you never know that at the time of course.
3. I don't claim any vast experience. I just accurately imply what my experience is. An Jerez FI and a current 737 Captain. Attempting to refute my view by pointing out that you have more hours, fly a bigger airplane, are a training captain or WHATEVER is a fairly weak strategy.
So lets here people's views and insights and stop waving willys at each other, please.
Cheers
WWW
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I ask because we are now seeing the first ex-cadets from the 1987 Prestwick/Oxford era with 744 Training Captain jobs in their mid 30's. They seem to be doing a pretty good job as well.
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Very good.
Actually he was an ex Flying Instructor. Air Force, I believe.
Also, would you like to share with us your 2/3/4 engine and airline experience?
You can miss out anything below,say,20 tonnes.
Actually he was an ex Flying Instructor. Air Force, I believe.
Also, would you like to share with us your 2/3/4 engine and airline experience?
You can miss out anything below,say,20 tonnes.
Yeah, thats a lame shot. I'd have made the same call in his boots.
For god's sake lets not take this debate past 500hrs of airline flying because trust me - after that you can't and won't see a difference.
Cheeers
WWW
For god's sake lets not take this debate past 500hrs of airline flying because trust me - after that you can't and won't see a difference.
Cheeers
WWW