HASELL check before Steep turns Ex15
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HASELL check before Steep turns Ex15
Hi,
With reference to Exercise 15 Steep turns. I would like to get a feel of what most instructors teach in terms of checks before carrying out a steep turn.
Example a full HASELL check,
or
above 3000' agl and good look out, under both wings and behind.
and finally do you advise the student to complete a HASELL check before the tight turn in the test if you might not necessary do it during the lessons.
Thanks
mint
With reference to Exercise 15 Steep turns. I would like to get a feel of what most instructors teach in terms of checks before carrying out a steep turn.
Example a full HASELL check,
or
above 3000' agl and good look out, under both wings and behind.
and finally do you advise the student to complete a HASELL check before the tight turn in the test if you might not necessary do it during the lessons.
Thanks
mint
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It certainly can't be considered to be bad practice to carry out a HASELL check before doing steep turns. I suppose it's a more extreme manoeuvre than normal therefore there is a greater risk of the aeroplane departing so checking "brakes off" and "loose articles" is probably sensible, in which case why not do the HASELL checks anyway.
A good lookout, particularly behind ('cos that's where you'll be going fairly shortly) goes without saying I would hope. Good practice would be entry to the steep turn from a standard rate 1 turn, where you've carried out a good lookout.
IMHO, ideally you should train as if you were on test, just to make sure you don't miss anything on the day by getting out of your routine.
A good lookout, particularly behind ('cos that's where you'll be going fairly shortly) goes without saying I would hope. Good practice would be entry to the steep turn from a standard rate 1 turn, where you've carried out a good lookout.
IMHO, ideally you should train as if you were on test, just to make sure you don't miss anything on the day by getting out of your routine.
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A full HASELL check is a bit of overkill for EX15. A verry good look around, especially behind is sufficient, followed by T's and P's. If in a warrior where the rearward view is restricted, then this might involve a 90 degree turn to check your six. The exercise is to teach the proper technique for executing a 180 aboutturn in a tight space (ie a valley avec low cloud). No real time to go through a full HASELL in that situation.
A HASELL check is really to check your airspace is clear if you are about to commence 'high energy' or 'unpredicable' maneouvres like stalls/spins or aerobatics.
A HASELL check is really to check your airspace is clear if you are about to commence 'high energy' or 'unpredicable' maneouvres like stalls/spins or aerobatics.
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I don't see a lot of point in doing a clearing turn to see if it's safe to do a turn - especially if you consider that the radius of the clearing turn is greater than the steep turn and uses more space.
100% agree on a thorough - and CONSTANT - lookout though (and going left first?).
It would be easier to encompass all, if the student were taught to enter and control the exercise by reference to the outside World and not the instruments.
When it comes to the question of passing a test - a perfectly co-ordinated instrument turn into another aircraft is not as good as losing 100 feet of altitude whilst checking the airspace.
On the subject - why does the FAA require steep turns on instruments?
100% agree on a thorough - and CONSTANT - lookout though (and going left first?).
It would be easier to encompass all, if the student were taught to enter and control the exercise by reference to the outside World and not the instruments.
When it comes to the question of passing a test - a perfectly co-ordinated instrument turn into another aircraft is not as good as losing 100 feet of altitude whilst checking the airspace.
On the subject - why does the FAA require steep turns on instruments?
In my opinion there's no need for any checks other than a FREDA at the start and end, nor is there any reason to be above 3000ft. As Keygrip said, why do a clearing turn before a turn?
It's v.important that studes eyes are outside and that he/she only glances in to check that they've selected and held the right attitude. However, the aim is to maintain altitude (and maintain IAS if possible) so some reference to instruments is required.
HF: why is the aircraft more likely to depart? It should be balanced and at a safe speed; at level 60deg bank you'll only be at 2g so a 41.4% increase in stall speed from the 1g stall.
GHB: a wingover would be more appropriate in a narrow valley, I'd assumed the application of a steep turn was collision avoidance and development of handling skill.
HFD
It's v.important that studes eyes are outside and that he/she only glances in to check that they've selected and held the right attitude. However, the aim is to maintain altitude (and maintain IAS if possible) so some reference to instruments is required.
HF: why is the aircraft more likely to depart? It should be balanced and at a safe speed; at level 60deg bank you'll only be at 2g so a 41.4% increase in stall speed from the 1g stall.
GHB: a wingover would be more appropriate in a narrow valley, I'd assumed the application of a steep turn was collision avoidance and development of handling skill.
HFD
Why do you teach Steep Turns?
so that the student will be able to safely avoid other traffic, objects etc.
If you teach HASELL first, then they will not develop any sense of urgency!
Think of minimum level operation with minimum visibility, a mast looms up ahead; you really don't want them to hit the mast whilst doing HASELL checks.
so that the student will be able to safely avoid other traffic, objects etc.
If you teach HASELL first, then they will not develop any sense of urgency!
Think of minimum level operation with minimum visibility, a mast looms up ahead; you really don't want them to hit the mast whilst doing HASELL checks.
Last edited by Whopity; 10th Aug 2005 at 20:42.
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Checks before a steep turn? Instructor has a quick look at the Ts & Ps, and a discrete but thorough look in the direction of turn, then calls out an imaginary close contact! Teach them what it's really for, and that whatever they might be expected to do in the test, gaining or losing 1-200' is less important than hauling the aircraft onto a heading that is not in conflict with another flying piece of steel!
I even demo the max-rate turn, to show them that the aircraft will (a) roll really quickly if you use lots of rudder too, roll rate being important at this stage, (b) stay in one piece as long as you're below the yellow arc and (c) turn level at more than 60°, so slight overbanking need not result in a panicked spiral descent. Oh, and (d) stall and enter an incipient spin if you take it too far into the buffet.
I even demo the max-rate turn, to show them that the aircraft will (a) roll really quickly if you use lots of rudder too, roll rate being important at this stage, (b) stay in one piece as long as you're below the yellow arc and (c) turn level at more than 60°, so slight overbanking need not result in a panicked spiral descent. Oh, and (d) stall and enter an incipient spin if you take it too far into the buffet.
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HF: why is the aircraft more likely to depart? It should be balanced and at a safe speed; at level 60deg bank you'll only be at 2g so a 41.4% increase in stall speed from the 1g stall.
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Rather than going around in circles trying to pull the wings off the aircraft, would be far more useful to practise 45 degree steep turns with say two stage of flap.
This would represent more the situation in bad weather, say low level turn onto final and all the nasties that can happen.
Also much more comfortable way to circle a ground object.
This would represent more the situation in bad weather, say low level turn onto final and all the nasties that can happen.
Also much more comfortable way to circle a ground object.
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A 60 degree level banked turn is a high energy manoeuvre, you are pulling 2g. I don’t ask my PPL students to perform that kind of turn, but I do demonstrate to them to show the amount of back pressure and power required. Hopefully the stall warning will sound and they can appreciate the higher stall speed associated. Therefore, I would certainly clear the area and make an announcement that we are general handling.
I do not see any reason to complete a HASELL check for 45 degree turns (you may as well do a RayBan alignment check!). It’s a basic manoeuvre; eyes should be outside anyway, just like any other stage of flight. What I will be prepared for, is the possible (hopeful) wake turbulence and the students reaction.
I do not see any reason to complete a HASELL check for 45 degree turns (you may as well do a RayBan alignment check!). It’s a basic manoeuvre; eyes should be outside anyway, just like any other stage of flight. What I will be prepared for, is the possible (hopeful) wake turbulence and the students reaction.
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I wouldn't make that separation between a 45° and 60° turn - the 60° is no more challenging than many other parts of the syllabus, nor would I say a high-energy manouevre, although perhaps that is because of having learnt aeros. 45 and 60 are just different degrees of steep turn, although obviously the only one I teach as a quick, immediate avoidance turn is 60°.
Surely the 60° turn is in the syllabus, so can be expected on test? Your students need to know how to perform it anyway, being the quickest turn that is safe for most people and not considered aerobatic!
Bob
Why teach students to circle an object? Apart, of course, from an orbit which is best shown at downwind or cruise speed, IMHO, at around 30° average AOB. They should not be encouraged to be flying around ground objects until they have much more experience. OK circling objects is used in the low-level exercise to teach wind awareness, but I would not generally use 45° or 2 stages of flap for that matter. That's a lot of drag if there's a problem!
Surely this is one of the areas of temptation we should be teaching them not to explore, the circling low and slow around the girlfriend's house.
Perhaps occasional practice with flap just in case of an error on final, and you are right limited to 45°, but mostly steep turns are for avoidance, more likely in the longer cruise section where lookout might be sacrificed in complacent pilots. Certainly I would suggest that more than 30° onto final should only be shown as "how not to do it", a demonstration of overbanking getting them into trouble. I always teach them to use a maximum of 30° in the final turn, and can see no reason to use more unless there is imminent risk of collision.
Surely the 60° turn is in the syllabus, so can be expected on test? Your students need to know how to perform it anyway, being the quickest turn that is safe for most people and not considered aerobatic!
Bob
Why teach students to circle an object? Apart, of course, from an orbit which is best shown at downwind or cruise speed, IMHO, at around 30° average AOB. They should not be encouraged to be flying around ground objects until they have much more experience. OK circling objects is used in the low-level exercise to teach wind awareness, but I would not generally use 45° or 2 stages of flap for that matter. That's a lot of drag if there's a problem!
Surely this is one of the areas of temptation we should be teaching them not to explore, the circling low and slow around the girlfriend's house.
Perhaps occasional practice with flap just in case of an error on final, and you are right limited to 45°, but mostly steep turns are for avoidance, more likely in the longer cruise section where lookout might be sacrificed in complacent pilots. Certainly I would suggest that more than 30° onto final should only be shown as "how not to do it", a demonstration of overbanking getting them into trouble. I always teach them to use a maximum of 30° in the final turn, and can see no reason to use more unless there is imminent risk of collision.
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Agree with BEagle on this. I thought that the teachiong of steep turns was related to having to do an avoiding manoeuvre. So if one is on a collision course with a fast jet and one needs to turn out of the way a HASELL check is going to be somewhat irrelevant.
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Interesting views.
I agree the steep turn is used to avoid other objects that require a sense of urgency, and therefore a HASELL would not be appropriate, but then again nor would the the 180 deg lookout in this situation, as your priority rightly said is to get out of the way.
On the other hand we are also trying to demonstrate to the student the importance of airmanship. When you know you are going to perform such manouvres I feel that 3000' is not a bad idea because when the student tries it for the first time solo he is not going to always get it right.
A good all round lookout is paramount.
A full HASELL check maybe good in the test to show the examiner that the stude understands the importance of good airmanship and therefore extra browny points.
mint
I agree the steep turn is used to avoid other objects that require a sense of urgency, and therefore a HASELL would not be appropriate, but then again nor would the the 180 deg lookout in this situation, as your priority rightly said is to get out of the way.
On the other hand we are also trying to demonstrate to the student the importance of airmanship. When you know you are going to perform such manouvres I feel that 3000' is not a bad idea because when the student tries it for the first time solo he is not going to always get it right.
A good all round lookout is paramount.
A full HASELL check maybe good in the test to show the examiner that the stude understands the importance of good airmanship and therefore extra browny points.
mint
BW:
I assume (hope) this was said with tongue firmly in cheek - there's nothing "high energy" about a 60 deg turn and it's a required part of the syllabus; if you're serious you may be giving the wrong message to your studes.
HFD
A 60 degree level banked turn is a high energy manoeuvre, you are pulling 2g. I don’t ask my PPL students to perform that kind of turn
HFD
"I feel that 3000' is not a bad idea because when the student tries it for the first time solo he is not going to always get it right."
Thats why Ex 15 includes recovery from a Spiral Dive; this is one of the worst, or least taught items in the syllabus.
Thats why Ex 15 includes recovery from a Spiral Dive; this is one of the worst, or least taught items in the syllabus.
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...and again... well said Beagle old chap...
Mintflavour, there is a subtle difference between a good lookout before a practise manouvre and the execution of the real thing! Therefore lookout before a steep turn is good airmanship, a HASELL check is, as Beagle said...
Mintflavour, there is a subtle difference between a good lookout before a practise manouvre and the execution of the real thing! Therefore lookout before a steep turn is good airmanship, a HASELL check is, as Beagle said...
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Agree with other posts that the HASELL is unnecessary before the steep turn, as it is essentially an avoidance manoeuvre. Also worth noting that in the eyes of an examiner, if a candidate loses 100 to 200 feet but retains basic control of the aircraft it is not a fail point. The important thing is control and avoiding the hazard. IMHO there is too much faffing about before getting on with a manoeuvre and far too little emphasis on lookout IN THE TURN!!
Also whilst we are at it, recovery from the spiral dive must be emphasised to be CLOSE THE THROTTLE- ROLL THE WINGS LEVEL, then PITCH UP to the horizon, only adding power once the airspeed reduces to cruise speed. Otherwise the height loss is excessive. Must avoid the "rolling pull" as the torsional load on the airframe is excessive and in a worst case scenario the wings could fall off. There seems to be little understanding of this in the basic instructor world...
Also whilst we are at it, recovery from the spiral dive must be emphasised to be CLOSE THE THROTTLE- ROLL THE WINGS LEVEL, then PITCH UP to the horizon, only adding power once the airspeed reduces to cruise speed. Otherwise the height loss is excessive. Must avoid the "rolling pull" as the torsional load on the airframe is excessive and in a worst case scenario the wings could fall off. There seems to be little understanding of this in the basic instructor world...