Logging of instruction hours for the IMC rating
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Logging of instruction hours for the IMC rating
Sorry if this has been answered before. I have checked LASSORS and used the search function on this forum but couldn't find a definitive answer (lot's of interesting debate though).
So if you are instructing for the IMC rating and you find yourself in actual IMC, can you in any way log it as IMC/IFR? I suspect since you are not actually manipulating the controls (the student does), it doesn't qualify as instrument time? (let's assume the FI holds an IR, even though I suppose this doesn't really matter)
So if you are instructing for the IMC rating and you find yourself in actual IMC, can you in any way log it as IMC/IFR? I suspect since you are not actually manipulating the controls (the student does), it doesn't qualify as instrument time? (let's assume the FI holds an IR, even though I suppose this doesn't really matter)
Whilst the flight might be under IFR, unless you are the sole manipulator of the controls in IMC you would be fooling yourself if you logged the 'actual' time yourself. What would it gain you?
I have never logged IF time for any flight of which I was commander if I was not handling the controls at the time.
I have never logged IF time for any flight of which I was commander if I was not handling the controls at the time.
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Most people would log the IF time so that eventually they can reach the magic number to be able to teach the IR.
Beagle, when you were flying bigger stuff did you log the time you were pnf in a multi crew situation? I always have done.
Beagle, when you were flying bigger stuff did you log the time you were pnf in a multi crew situation? I always have done.
The answer is in JAR-FCL 1.080 Recording of Flight time.
A pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
A pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
BEagle, what about when you're the Captain and the autopilot's on? How is monitoring a stude different to monitoring an autopilot.
Whopity: does "operate" include monitoring a stude? or monitoring an autopilot?
And I thought that in this JAR world we recorded IFR time rather than IMC time (?)
HFD
Whopity: does "operate" include monitoring a stude? or monitoring an autopilot?
And I thought that in this JAR world we recorded IFR time rather than IMC time (?)
HFD
Say again s l o w l y - back in the days before I was a 4-jet captain, we didn't fly leg and leg about on our fleet. So the convention for co-piglets was to record half their time as P1 and half as P2, but none as PIC. When I was a commander, all the time was PIC. If I was on a check ride, it was P1 non-captain under military recording.
"Most people would log the IF time so that eventually they can reach the magic number to be able to teach the IR."...Oh really? More like fraudulent Parker pen time, I would suggest.
When you are controlling an aeroplane through manual controls, FBW controls or autopilot controls, you are 'manipulator of the controls'. When you are monitoring someone else doing that, you are clearly not 'manipulator of the controls'.
There's always someone trying to claim time for something they haven't done - usually their performance under test shows them up for the frauds they really are.
"Most people would log the IF time so that eventually they can reach the magic number to be able to teach the IR."...Oh really? More like fraudulent Parker pen time, I would suggest.
When you are controlling an aeroplane through manual controls, FBW controls or autopilot controls, you are 'manipulator of the controls'. When you are monitoring someone else doing that, you are clearly not 'manipulator of the controls'.
There's always someone trying to claim time for something they haven't done - usually their performance under test shows them up for the frauds they really are.
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The answer is in JAR-FCL 1.080 Recording of Flight time.
A pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
I don't agree with the last answer
I don't see there where it says you have to "manipulate", it says operate, so it's rather an issue of what you interpretate it.
Besides, if you follow this logic, if you are instructing you cannot log most of the flight time as you are not manipulating anything , just monitoring your student and perhaps giving him idications.
I wonder if we can find an answer to this in LASORS.
will check it
LEVC
A pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
I don't agree with the last answer
I don't see there where it says you have to "manipulate", it says operate, so it's rather an issue of what you interpretate it.
Besides, if you follow this logic, if you are instructing you cannot log most of the flight time as you are not manipulating anything , just monitoring your student and perhaps giving him idications.
I wonder if we can find an answer to this in LASORS.
will check it
LEVC
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In a two crew situation the pilot not flying has always got to be able to take over from the PF if required, especially in the case of incapacitation or total incompetence.
As PNF I am always monitoring the other pilot's actions as much as I would the auto pilot if I was handling, so why can't I log it?
Usually it is made fairly clear by the use of trhe phrase "sole manipulator of the controls" I fail to see that in this case, so my reading is that the PNF can log the IF time.
I will agree with you about FI's logging IF time, when they are in gin clear conditions, it's only their student who can't see the rest of the world. At the end of the day however, there is really no way of checking if they were in actual IFR conditions on a particular flight.
As PNF I am always monitoring the other pilot's actions as much as I would the auto pilot if I was handling, so why can't I log it?
Usually it is made fairly clear by the use of trhe phrase "sole manipulator of the controls" I fail to see that in this case, so my reading is that the PNF can log the IF time.
I will agree with you about FI's logging IF time, when they are in gin clear conditions, it's only their student who can't see the rest of the world. At the end of the day however, there is really no way of checking if they were in actual IFR conditions on a particular flight.
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As stated before, it must be logged, the instructor is PIC so legally must log it as such. The conditions of flight are IMC and IFR, therefore the flight must be logged as such.
Going by BEagle's over-emotive contribution the instructor would not log any time for a competent student doing brush up for a flight test, for the flight before first solo or first solo navigation (where I was taught never to touch the controls or give much advice if the student was handling the trip competently), let alone for a check flight or revision flight for a qualified student. Certainly anyone logging the time as flight by instruments is not indulging himself with "Parker ballpen" hours!
Going by BEagle's over-emotive contribution the instructor would not log any time for a competent student doing brush up for a flight test, for the flight before first solo or first solo navigation (where I was taught never to touch the controls or give much advice if the student was handling the trip competently), let alone for a check flight or revision flight for a qualified student. Certainly anyone logging the time as flight by instruments is not indulging himself with "Parker ballpen" hours!
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As an IR instructor I log the whole flight IFR, if we are in cloud (since I don't have x-ray vision) I log that time as actual instrument. So far my log book has passed three CAA inspections so I presume that is correct.
"Going by BEagle's over-emotive contribution the instructor would not log any time for a competent student doing brush up for a flight test, for the flight before first solo or first solo navigation (where I was taught never to touch the controls or give much advice if the student was handling the trip competently), let alone for a check flight or revision flight for a qualified student."
Utter horse$hit. The FI is the Commander and logs the time as such.
Anyway, it's quite clear from LASORS Section A Appendix B that although the JAA requires you to log any 'operational conditions' (i.e. night or IFR), for any licensing requirement which states a minimum total of 'instrument flight time', that is defined as per Appendix A: Instrument Flight Time: Time during which a pilot is controlling an aircraft in flight solely by reference to instruments. Watching your student doing so does NOT meet this definition.
If there is a general misunderstanding of these requirements, perhaps it's time for the CAA to clarify the matter?
Fat chance!
Utter horse$hit. The FI is the Commander and logs the time as such.
Anyway, it's quite clear from LASORS Section A Appendix B that although the JAA requires you to log any 'operational conditions' (i.e. night or IFR), for any licensing requirement which states a minimum total of 'instrument flight time', that is defined as per Appendix A: Instrument Flight Time: Time during which a pilot is controlling an aircraft in flight solely by reference to instruments. Watching your student doing so does NOT meet this definition.
If there is a general misunderstanding of these requirements, perhaps it's time for the CAA to clarify the matter?
Fat chance!
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I'm surprised that no one has so far mentioned the requirements for instructing for an IR, since these, IMHO, give interesting clues as to how to log instrument time.
In order to instruct for an IR, you need a certain amount of IFR flight. The rules then go on to say something along the lines of (I don't have the exact quote to hand, and I'm not going to track it down right now because the exact details aren't relevant) "if you have logged time by sole reference to instruments, as oposed to logging IFR time, then 1 hour by sole reference to instruments counts as 4 hours IFR."
There are a few points here:
First of all, there are (at least) two different ways of logging instrument time.
Secondly, an hour by sole reference to instruments is considered more valuable than an hour IFR. From that, we can surely imply that you should log your time as IFR, even if you are in VMC and not using any view-limiting device, any time you undertake an IFR flight - this is why such time is not as valuable as time by sole reference to instruments. That would include any airways flight. It would include any flight where you are prepared to enter IMC should you encounter such conditions. It would even include any night flight in the UK outside controlled airspace - although that may be stretching the point too far!
The alternative method of logging time - by sole reference to instruments - seems to me to only include that time where you are in actual IMC, or where you are using a view-limiting device.
How does this relate to an IMC instructor? Well, if the instructor has chosen to log his IFR time, then any routes he flies, and probably any approaches, must be IFR, and should be logged as such. General handling might be IFR, or it might be VFR if the weather is VMC and the instructor has chosen to fly VFR.
On the other hand, if the instructor has chosen to log his time by sole reference to instruments, then only that time in actual IMC may be logged, since the instructor is presumably not wearing a view limiting device.
So, is this actually relevant? It is based purely on the requirements for becoming and IR instructor, which is something which no one has asked about, so maybe it's not relevant? But, as far as I'm aware, there are only 2 times where either the CAA or JAR-FCL requires a given amount of instrument time. One is the instrument flying requirements for ATPL issue (75 hours, I think?), and there is no detail about exactly what counts as instrument flying for this purpose. And then there are the requirements for becoming an IR instructor. So yes, I think it is relevant, because it's the only written guidelines that I can find anywhere.
All of this assumes, by the way, that BEagle is incorrect in his assumption that an IMC instructor can not log instrument time because he is not at the controls - something which everyone seems to be agreed on except BEagle himself.
FFF
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In order to instruct for an IR, you need a certain amount of IFR flight. The rules then go on to say something along the lines of (I don't have the exact quote to hand, and I'm not going to track it down right now because the exact details aren't relevant) "if you have logged time by sole reference to instruments, as oposed to logging IFR time, then 1 hour by sole reference to instruments counts as 4 hours IFR."
There are a few points here:
First of all, there are (at least) two different ways of logging instrument time.
Secondly, an hour by sole reference to instruments is considered more valuable than an hour IFR. From that, we can surely imply that you should log your time as IFR, even if you are in VMC and not using any view-limiting device, any time you undertake an IFR flight - this is why such time is not as valuable as time by sole reference to instruments. That would include any airways flight. It would include any flight where you are prepared to enter IMC should you encounter such conditions. It would even include any night flight in the UK outside controlled airspace - although that may be stretching the point too far!
The alternative method of logging time - by sole reference to instruments - seems to me to only include that time where you are in actual IMC, or where you are using a view-limiting device.
How does this relate to an IMC instructor? Well, if the instructor has chosen to log his IFR time, then any routes he flies, and probably any approaches, must be IFR, and should be logged as such. General handling might be IFR, or it might be VFR if the weather is VMC and the instructor has chosen to fly VFR.
On the other hand, if the instructor has chosen to log his time by sole reference to instruments, then only that time in actual IMC may be logged, since the instructor is presumably not wearing a view limiting device.
So, is this actually relevant? It is based purely on the requirements for becoming and IR instructor, which is something which no one has asked about, so maybe it's not relevant? But, as far as I'm aware, there are only 2 times where either the CAA or JAR-FCL requires a given amount of instrument time. One is the instrument flying requirements for ATPL issue (75 hours, I think?), and there is no detail about exactly what counts as instrument flying for this purpose. And then there are the requirements for becoming an IR instructor. So yes, I think it is relevant, because it's the only written guidelines that I can find anywhere.
All of this assumes, by the way, that BEagle is incorrect in his assumption that an IMC instructor can not log instrument time because he is not at the controls - something which everyone seems to be agreed on except BEagle himself.
FFF
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Utter horse$hit. The FI is the Commander and logs the time as such
No-one has mentioned anthing about "instrument flight time". We have been talking about flight in IMC and flight under IFR. The former does not quite fit the definition you quote, as a student can be flying by sole reference to instruments in VMC rather than IMC due to a sight-limiting device, and IFR does not fit your description as many IFR flights are on gin-clear days.
Do you have an answer to my other points, that on many trips the instructor doesn't touch the controls but still logs the hours?
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Agreed, and if we took Beagles logic to the extreme, I imagine most FI's would never reach the 200 hours IF required to teach the IR. Instead we'd reach 800 hours IFR (the alternative route)which could have all been flown in VMC.
Extract from an e-mail received some months ago from the Belgrano -
"The CAA will accept flight time gained as a flight instructor in IMC as counting towards the instrument flight time requirements for a licence or rating irrespective of whether said instructor was handling the flight controls."
Why rely on opinion and rumour when you can simply ask the Authority?
"The CAA will accept flight time gained as a flight instructor in IMC as counting towards the instrument flight time requirements for a licence or rating irrespective of whether said instructor was handling the flight controls."
Why rely on opinion and rumour when you can simply ask the Authority?
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Under JAR-FCL the definitions of IFR and instrument time are quite clear but some schools and instructors seem to be confusing the two.
I know of one school (approved & training for the IR) where they log the block time of each flight as IFR and use this time to meet the JAR-FCL 1 requirements for the IR (40 FNPT 2 + 15 hrs aircraft). In my opinion this is wrong, 15 hours block time on an IFR flight plan does not mean 15 hours Instrument time!
I know of one school (approved & training for the IR) where they log the block time of each flight as IFR and use this time to meet the JAR-FCL 1 requirements for the IR (40 FNPT 2 + 15 hrs aircraft). In my opinion this is wrong, 15 hours block time on an IFR flight plan does not mean 15 hours Instrument time!
Quite so!
The CAA's e-mail merely confuses the issue yet further. Quite how watching a student's flying in IMC can be considered to be 'Instrument Flight Time' for the FI is something I simply cannot comprehend.
The CAA's e-mail merely confuses the issue yet further. Quite how watching a student's flying in IMC can be considered to be 'Instrument Flight Time' for the FI is something I simply cannot comprehend.
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The problem seems to be including the term IFR.
We know that any flight could be flown IFR. That doesn't prove anything regard I/F experience.
Surely we/they, who ever they are, should only be considering IMC flight only, manually flown, only in a P.1 capacity.
True I/F time is hard to get, simulator is 100% I/F.
I have seen airline pilot log books where flight time and I/F logged are nearly the same. How can this be, most airline flights i,ve been on there is only about 10% of time spent IMC and probably only 2% manually flown! (I except there are exceptions). In 25 years of flying and 9000 hrs i have probably managed to get 300hrs actual I/F, from doing my IMC rating, I/R rating, sim. time and flogging through crap to find a descent horizon through the winter in the UK.
We know that any flight could be flown IFR. That doesn't prove anything regard I/F experience.
Surely we/they, who ever they are, should only be considering IMC flight only, manually flown, only in a P.1 capacity.
True I/F time is hard to get, simulator is 100% I/F.
I have seen airline pilot log books where flight time and I/F logged are nearly the same. How can this be, most airline flights i,ve been on there is only about 10% of time spent IMC and probably only 2% manually flown! (I except there are exceptions). In 25 years of flying and 9000 hrs i have probably managed to get 300hrs actual I/F, from doing my IMC rating, I/R rating, sim. time and flogging through crap to find a descent horizon through the winter in the UK.
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May seem like a stupid question, but who actually decided to use 'IFR' hours for removal of the FI rating restrictions under JAR-FCL 1? Was this a mistake that should be changed?
All other ratings talk of Instrument time.
All other ratings talk of Instrument time.