pre landing checklists
1.
Spit 747:
Looks like nobody responded, but yes, IMHO the checklist must include the checks required in the Flight Manual, although formal approval of the Manufacturer is not required. The Regulator's approval will be required if the aircraft is being operated for the purpose of an AOC, in which case the checks must also be laid out in the company Ops Manual.
2.
I don't like inappropriate checks. Calling 'Undercarriage' in a fixed gear a/c , meaningless, may lead to the old HF problem when flying a retractable, for example.
Spit 747:
Looks like nobody responded, but yes, IMHO the checklist must include the checks required in the Flight Manual, although formal approval of the Manufacturer is not required. The Regulator's approval will be required if the aircraft is being operated for the purpose of an AOC, in which case the checks must also be laid out in the company Ops Manual.
2.
I don't like inappropriate checks. Calling 'Undercarriage' in a fixed gear a/c , meaningless, may lead to the old HF problem when flying a retractable, for example.
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There's always the new guy try to reinvent the wheel.
Thereceiver, here's what you need to tell the new guy:
First and foremost, a checklist is not a "To do List." In other words, the proper technique for using the checklist is not to individually go, one by one, down the list, performing each task. Tell him, "repeat after me: the checklist is a checklist, not a to-do-list."
Second, what is the purpose of a checklist? Simply, to ensure certain procedures are performed. Who cares how they are done? Now, it certainly is logical to learn a "flow" to performing each item on the checklist, for instance, starting an after-landing checklist might be started from the top of the instrument panel and flow down to the console, but what really matters, is that the procedures are performed and then checked that they WERE (past tense) performed via the checklist.
When I flew small airplanes by myself, I seem to recall it was difficult to read a printed checklist while flying. Hence, the memory aids. Obviously, the simpler the memory aid, the better. So, for this guy to invent a new system which has no rhyme or reason, making the memory aid no longer a memory aid, makes no sense.
It would only make sense if he's training folks who are ultimately going to be flying bigger airplanes and he wants to acquaint them with "flows," and the actual use of checklists. But even if that's the case, for primary training, I would think it would hinder training at such an early stage in a pilot's development.
Thereceiver, here's what you need to tell the new guy:
First and foremost, a checklist is not a "To do List." In other words, the proper technique for using the checklist is not to individually go, one by one, down the list, performing each task. Tell him, "repeat after me: the checklist is a checklist, not a to-do-list."
Second, what is the purpose of a checklist? Simply, to ensure certain procedures are performed. Who cares how they are done? Now, it certainly is logical to learn a "flow" to performing each item on the checklist, for instance, starting an after-landing checklist might be started from the top of the instrument panel and flow down to the console, but what really matters, is that the procedures are performed and then checked that they WERE (past tense) performed via the checklist.
When I flew small airplanes by myself, I seem to recall it was difficult to read a printed checklist while flying. Hence, the memory aids. Obviously, the simpler the memory aid, the better. So, for this guy to invent a new system which has no rhyme or reason, making the memory aid no longer a memory aid, makes no sense.
It would only make sense if he's training folks who are ultimately going to be flying bigger airplanes and he wants to acquaint them with "flows," and the actual use of checklists. But even if that's the case, for primary training, I would think it would hinder training at such an early stage in a pilot's development.
We should always be open to new ideas but ...
If someone suggests something radical my first response is "why?" - if the answer is good the next question is "what about everyone else?". Sometimes a standard that's not optimum is better than a perfect but unique way of doing things. If this guy has a good reason for changing things he needs to negotiate with the rest of the training community and convince them that it's worth changing and then implement the changes - if he's right it should be relatively easy.
Unfortunately there's little doubt that, in this case, he's wrong but at least his peers will tell him the idea is a load of cr*p rather then his employees.
If someone suggests something radical my first response is "why?" - if the answer is good the next question is "what about everyone else?". Sometimes a standard that's not optimum is better than a perfect but unique way of doing things. If this guy has a good reason for changing things he needs to negotiate with the rest of the training community and convince them that it's worth changing and then implement the changes - if he's right it should be relatively easy.
Unfortunately there's little doubt that, in this case, he's wrong but at least his peers will tell him the idea is a load of cr*p rather then his employees.
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Yes - I agree that calling out "undercarriage" then something like "down and welded" is a bit daft if you only fly, or ever intend to fly, fixed gear singles, but as I explained above the old "BUMFF checklist, engraved on my heart for over 1000 hours instructing at the time saved my bacon under CAAFU's beady eye, indeed those pre-landing checks were all I needed downwind when flying the Twin Otter as I did single crew many years later.
P.P.
P.P.
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Good thread.
Oxford Aviation's CPL Landing Cx list is simply...
1. Brakes (on/off & parking off)
2. Flaps (as required)
3. Fuel (Mix rich, pump on, quantity sufficient)
I guess the idea being that your head should be out of the cockpit during this crucial stage.
The more detailed and time comsuming cx's are carried out in the Approach Cx's before the circuit
Anyone agree?
Craggs
Oxford Aviation's CPL Landing Cx list is simply...
1. Brakes (on/off & parking off)
2. Flaps (as required)
3. Fuel (Mix rich, pump on, quantity sufficient)
I guess the idea being that your head should be out of the cockpit during this crucial stage.
The more detailed and time comsuming cx's are carried out in the Approach Cx's before the circuit
Anyone agree?
Craggs
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Anyone agree?
Absolutely.
Just like the organisations who call the checks "downwind checks" - what if you are joining base or doing a straight in approach........are they forgotten if there is no downwind call to remind them - unfortunately yes!
Regards,
DFC
Absolutely.
Just like the organisations who call the checks "downwind checks" - what if you are joining base or doing a straight in approach........are they forgotten if there is no downwind call to remind them - unfortunately yes!
Regards,
DFC
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What a refreshing post! I am so glad Oxford have come up with such a sensibly short list. As I posted above, I spent ages trying to learn their old infinitely long set of downwind checks years ago, only to suffer memory failure when it was supposed to matter most! Basically, all you need to do is to make sure that your undercarriage is down, your brakes are off but working and your engine(s) are set up for a possible go-around.
I'm sure I've forgotton a thing or two, but this is the bottom line, and if you always fly fixed gear machines, you can forget the first one as well.
P.P.
(There are two kinds of pilots - those who have landed with their gear up, and those that haven't - yet!)
I'm sure I've forgotton a thing or two, but this is the bottom line, and if you always fly fixed gear machines, you can forget the first one as well.
P.P.
(There are two kinds of pilots - those who have landed with their gear up, and those that haven't - yet!)
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Why check brakes on/off before landing. if you have an unknown hydraulic leak from a brake, by depressing the brake pedal you will just as likely squirt the remaining fluid overboard.
Mnemonics are fun but a bit infantile really. Have you ever heard of 747 crews using mnemonics? I doubt it.
That said, I loved the downwind check mnemonic that one instructor taught me and which I learned by heart which is probably a good thing. It went "My Friend Fred Had Hairy Balls". You can make want you want of that but suggest Mixture rich - Fuel on - Flaps as requ - Hatches - and I forget what Balls stood for - Oh I remember now - it was Brakes. In addition he taught me the PPUFF checks on final which were Pitch fine - Power Poles -Undercarriage - Flaps and Feathered friends. And this idiot was dead serious...
Mnemonics are fun but a bit infantile really. Have you ever heard of 747 crews using mnemonics? I doubt it.
That said, I loved the downwind check mnemonic that one instructor taught me and which I learned by heart which is probably a good thing. It went "My Friend Fred Had Hairy Balls". You can make want you want of that but suggest Mixture rich - Fuel on - Flaps as requ - Hatches - and I forget what Balls stood for - Oh I remember now - it was Brakes. In addition he taught me the PPUFF checks on final which were Pitch fine - Power Poles -Undercarriage - Flaps and Feathered friends. And this idiot was dead serious...
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A 747 crew (or any other multi pilot crew) won't use mnemonics since they have a non flying pilot to read the relevant checklist.
Certain emergencies are done from memory but I can't remember ever using a mnemonic to help remember those drills.
Checking the brakes is an important check, if you try the pedals and they go to the floor, then you know you haven't got any, certainly something I'd like to know before going into a short strip with big hedge at the end. Squirting brake fluid out by checking it doesn't make the brakes any less effective, if the fluid can get out, then the brakes are knackered. Time to find a nice long runway.
Certain emergencies are done from memory but I can't remember ever using a mnemonic to help remember those drills.
Checking the brakes is an important check, if you try the pedals and they go to the floor, then you know you haven't got any, certainly something I'd like to know before going into a short strip with big hedge at the end. Squirting brake fluid out by checking it doesn't make the brakes any less effective, if the fluid can get out, then the brakes are knackered. Time to find a nice long runway.
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Have you ever heard of 747 crews using mnemonics?
Lots!
NITS and DODAR spring to mind!
Oh and - Time Turn Track Talk Think - some things don't change with weight!
One must remember that mnemonics are an aid to assist a pilot in completing a checklist. They should not be treated as essential pre-requisites for checklists that are completed from memory.
Regards,
DFC
Lots!
NITS and DODAR spring to mind!
Oh and - Time Turn Track Talk Think - some things don't change with weight!
One must remember that mnemonics are an aid to assist a pilot in completing a checklist. They should not be treated as essential pre-requisites for checklists that are completed from memory.
Regards,
DFC
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lscajp;
I hope you really meant to put Ts and Ps after alt air?!
It makes so much sense to learn the whole checklist. Less time in the cockpit looking at paper and more understanding about what's going on around.
Emergency initial actions should all be from memory - aviate first!
I hope you really meant to put Ts and Ps after alt air?!
It makes so much sense to learn the whole checklist. Less time in the cockpit looking at paper and more understanding about what's going on around.
Emergency initial actions should all be from memory - aviate first!
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Christ, things get made complicated with light aircraft !
On a B757 (and most other airliners) there are 4 items on the landing cx list;
speedebrake
gear
flaps
cabin
Thats just under half the checks for many people flying C152's and still less than landing a bloody microlight !!!!!!!!
T's and P's, approach clear, check wind etc. Are you serious ? Thats all called airmanship !!!
God help some of you if the check list ever fails.
Written CX lists should never be seen when off the ground unless your multi crew or something stopped working.
On a B757 (and most other airliners) there are 4 items on the landing cx list;
speedebrake
gear
flaps
cabin
Thats just under half the checks for many people flying C152's and still less than landing a bloody microlight !!!!!!!!
T's and P's, approach clear, check wind etc. Are you serious ? Thats all called airmanship !!!
God help some of you if the check list ever fails.
Written CX lists should never be seen when off the ground unless your multi crew or something stopped working.
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Hoey50 good point !
Airbus checklist can easily fit on one laminated side of A4 sheet with main emergeny actions on the reverse
Why do we see "booklets" of C152, pa28 CHECKS which go on and on for ever? (left sock red - check, right sock green - check)
Why do students still get charged for checklists when there are some great single sheet a5 size checklists available on the web ?checkout the PA28 checklist at www.dauntless-soft.com
Why do some die hards insist that their overly complex and not easily learned checks are better than the aircraft manufacturers concise checks (try using the PA28 checks suggested by Piper and posted inside the cockpit which work and yes you can get airborne in a couple of minutes without falling back to earth.
And finally - why do many students spend 10 minutes with heads buried in the checks totally oblivious to the outside world (at an average cost of approx = £20)
Keep It Simple works for me ! if it;s important memorise it !!!
Look at Bumfitch (Brakes - "of course they are off on a single who would put them on after takeoff !", brake pressure ? maybe but critical ? Only if landing on a postage stamp runway.
Undercarriage VALID
Mix = VALID
Fuel = VALID
Instruments = should have been checked via FREDA in cruise and why not stick with QNH
t&p'S = Who cares at this point, we are landing anyway !
Carb Ht - VALID (But see Piper pre landing checklist NOT needed)
Harnesses and hatches = does anybody take them off ?wander around the cabin of the PA28 ? open them ? unlikely !
So boiling it down to absolute "essentials" for a SE FIXED GEAR not IMC/IFR
Fuel - (Mixture and pump)
Carb Heat
Prop ?
Anyone know "GLUMPS" GAS, Landing light, undercarriage, mixture, power/prop, seatbelts.
Or final pre takeoff (after power checks) essentials= "CIGAR" - Controls free and correct, Instruments set, Gas (mix rich pump on , correct tank, ATTITUDE (Flaps and trim), Radios (Com, transponder and Nav set). Takes about 2 minutes !
Now I know its bound to ruffle a few feathers and there is a lot of debate possible on the above but hey !! that's what it is all about !!!
Airbus checklist can easily fit on one laminated side of A4 sheet with main emergeny actions on the reverse
Why do we see "booklets" of C152, pa28 CHECKS which go on and on for ever? (left sock red - check, right sock green - check)
Why do students still get charged for checklists when there are some great single sheet a5 size checklists available on the web ?checkout the PA28 checklist at www.dauntless-soft.com
Why do some die hards insist that their overly complex and not easily learned checks are better than the aircraft manufacturers concise checks (try using the PA28 checks suggested by Piper and posted inside the cockpit which work and yes you can get airborne in a couple of minutes without falling back to earth.
And finally - why do many students spend 10 minutes with heads buried in the checks totally oblivious to the outside world (at an average cost of approx = £20)
Keep It Simple works for me ! if it;s important memorise it !!!
Look at Bumfitch (Brakes - "of course they are off on a single who would put them on after takeoff !", brake pressure ? maybe but critical ? Only if landing on a postage stamp runway.
Undercarriage VALID
Mix = VALID
Fuel = VALID
Instruments = should have been checked via FREDA in cruise and why not stick with QNH
t&p'S = Who cares at this point, we are landing anyway !
Carb Ht - VALID (But see Piper pre landing checklist NOT needed)
Harnesses and hatches = does anybody take them off ?wander around the cabin of the PA28 ? open them ? unlikely !
So boiling it down to absolute "essentials" for a SE FIXED GEAR not IMC/IFR
Fuel - (Mixture and pump)
Carb Heat
Prop ?
Anyone know "GLUMPS" GAS, Landing light, undercarriage, mixture, power/prop, seatbelts.
Or final pre takeoff (after power checks) essentials= "CIGAR" - Controls free and correct, Instruments set, Gas (mix rich pump on , correct tank, ATTITUDE (Flaps and trim), Radios (Com, transponder and Nav set). Takes about 2 minutes !
Now I know its bound to ruffle a few feathers and there is a lot of debate possible on the above but hey !! that's what it is all about !!!
I'matightbastard
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Here's the mnemonic checklist I use...
MVLQKFEJBVPKLMWRMWKGNBLKBWRAMGBLKLKBQWRLBLNLRWGBKR
It's a bit of a mouthful and took me eight years to memorise correctly, but it covers just about everything in the C120 I fly on a regular basis.
The A is for Anual btw
Seriously now. You're talking about primary students and simple single pilot aircraft here right? Give them a crutch to rely on, but don't over complicate things, or they'll start to focus on whether they have suficient fuel to complete the landing
instead of monitoring their airspeed.
Not the point really. They use flows and come back around with a checklist to ...check the flow was done correctly. That's what you should be striving for really: Flow Patterns.
Think about it. How do you drive your car? Do you say "Headlights on"? No. If it's dark, you just put them on. Do you recite "Mirror, Signal, Brakes"? No. You do it because it's instinctual, you're driving. You should have a similar goal with flying - Aviating.
I understand that this is an instructor forum, so it tends to deal with teaching primary students, and checklists are fine, even necessary for them, but they need to be simple, worthwhile, meaningful and put into context.
Other points: Yes to Min sink vs Best Glide. No point gliding for miles if you don't know where to (we're a little spoiled here in Texas). Better still would be to "fly the airplane".
GUMPS must be an American thing then. I'm surprised it only got mentioned once here.
MVLQKFEJBVPKLMWRMWKGNBLKBWRAMGBLKLKBQWRLBLNLRWGBKR
It's a bit of a mouthful and took me eight years to memorise correctly, but it covers just about everything in the C120 I fly on a regular basis.
The A is for Anual btwSeriously now. You're talking about primary students and simple single pilot aircraft here right? Give them a crutch to rely on, but don't over complicate things, or they'll start to focus on whether they have suficient fuel to complete the landing
instead of monitoring their airspeed.
A 747 crew (or any other multi pilot crew) won't use mnemonics since they have a non flying pilot to read the relevant checklist.
Think about it. How do you drive your car? Do you say "Headlights on"? No. If it's dark, you just put them on. Do you recite "Mirror, Signal, Brakes"? No. You do it because it's instinctual, you're driving. You should have a similar goal with flying - Aviating.
I understand that this is an instructor forum, so it tends to deal with teaching primary students, and checklists are fine, even necessary for them, but they need to be simple, worthwhile, meaningful and put into context.
Other points: Yes to Min sink vs Best Glide. No point gliding for miles if you don't know where to (we're a little spoiled here in Texas). Better still would be to "fly the airplane".
GUMPS must be an American thing then. I'm surprised it only got mentioned once here.
