FAA Training in the UK: the legalities
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FAA Training in the UK: the legalities
Here it is hot off the Press and straight from the horse’s mouth, explained in the manner of FAQ’s;
From the student/clients perspective:
Q: I have a N-reg aircraft and I need to do my BFR and IPC in it what must I do to ensure legality of the check flight or train for a FAA pilot certificate?
A: You have to fax the Dept of Trade on 0207 944 2194, asking for permission stating the period during which you wish to have paid instruction on the aircraft. It must be your aircraft (or the pilot must be flying on behalf of the owner).You have to supply copies of: C of A, C of R, Current Insurance Certificate, latest annual maintenance record, Copy of the trust paperwork showing that you are the beneficial owner of the aircraft. You must also provide the details of the instructor/s who will be providing the training.
Q: Can I do my BFR/IPC in a G-reg aircraft?
A; Yes, as long as the instructor holds a JAA CPL & Instructors rating as well as the FAA certicates.
Q: Can I renew my JAA/CAA ratings, or receive training for these in my own aircraft?
A: Yes, but you must apply on each occasion to the D of T as previously stated.
Q: I have complied with the D of T requirements, but the instructor has only FAA licenses and Instructors certificates, if the D of T has given me permission to use him am I legal?
A: No – the D of T and the CAA are two different entities. The CAA can invoke ANO Article 21, which prohibits “any training in any aircraft” by anyone who does not hold the relevant JAA licenses.
Q: I know my instructor has the correct FAA certificates, but I have not ascertained if he/she holds JAA compliant licences could I be prosecuted if I am unaware of this and I am still flying in my N-reg aircraft?
A: ICAO and the Chicago convention states that anyone operating an aircraft of another registry in another state will default to the regulations of that state. Thus you may liable to prosecution. It is therefore up to that state if they wish to prosecute you.
Q: I have a G-reg aircraft; may I receive training in this aircraft for a FAA certificate?
A: Yes, but the instructor you use must have a JAA Instructor rating, to be paid he/she must have a Commercial License, and to make the training compliant have a FAA CFI rating. (Note for some certificates, a non-FAA rated instructor can do part of the training – e.g.: a JAA instructor or even a safety pilot can do 25 hours of FAA IR).
Q: I have a friend who wants to use my N-reg aircraft for obtaining his FAA certificate; can I hire it to him?
A: No, he must be a co-owner and again apply on his own behalf to the D of T to train on the aircraft in the same manner you have done and specify the instructor’s details.
Q: Can I do my FAA check ride in the UK?
A: Yes, you are PIC on test so you can do it in either a G-reg or N-.aircraft. However, the FAA examiner could insist on do the test in a N-reg aircraft. (Note there are reciprocal arrangements in place for mutual testing in the UK/USA).
Q: My training provider insists that they are fully compliant with the law to do my training should I confirm this with the CAA and the D of T or take his word?
A: No, you should in every case make sure what you are doing complies with the law of the state where your training is taking place.
If anyone needs any further verification please PM and I will provide you with the contact details for the Legal Department of the CAA.
From the student/clients perspective:
Q: I have a N-reg aircraft and I need to do my BFR and IPC in it what must I do to ensure legality of the check flight or train for a FAA pilot certificate?
A: You have to fax the Dept of Trade on 0207 944 2194, asking for permission stating the period during which you wish to have paid instruction on the aircraft. It must be your aircraft (or the pilot must be flying on behalf of the owner).You have to supply copies of: C of A, C of R, Current Insurance Certificate, latest annual maintenance record, Copy of the trust paperwork showing that you are the beneficial owner of the aircraft. You must also provide the details of the instructor/s who will be providing the training.
Q: Can I do my BFR/IPC in a G-reg aircraft?
A; Yes, as long as the instructor holds a JAA CPL & Instructors rating as well as the FAA certicates.
Q: Can I renew my JAA/CAA ratings, or receive training for these in my own aircraft?
A: Yes, but you must apply on each occasion to the D of T as previously stated.
Q: I have complied with the D of T requirements, but the instructor has only FAA licenses and Instructors certificates, if the D of T has given me permission to use him am I legal?
A: No – the D of T and the CAA are two different entities. The CAA can invoke ANO Article 21, which prohibits “any training in any aircraft” by anyone who does not hold the relevant JAA licenses.
Q: I know my instructor has the correct FAA certificates, but I have not ascertained if he/she holds JAA compliant licences could I be prosecuted if I am unaware of this and I am still flying in my N-reg aircraft?
A: ICAO and the Chicago convention states that anyone operating an aircraft of another registry in another state will default to the regulations of that state. Thus you may liable to prosecution. It is therefore up to that state if they wish to prosecute you.
Q: I have a G-reg aircraft; may I receive training in this aircraft for a FAA certificate?
A: Yes, but the instructor you use must have a JAA Instructor rating, to be paid he/she must have a Commercial License, and to make the training compliant have a FAA CFI rating. (Note for some certificates, a non-FAA rated instructor can do part of the training – e.g.: a JAA instructor or even a safety pilot can do 25 hours of FAA IR).
Q: I have a friend who wants to use my N-reg aircraft for obtaining his FAA certificate; can I hire it to him?
A: No, he must be a co-owner and again apply on his own behalf to the D of T to train on the aircraft in the same manner you have done and specify the instructor’s details.
Q: Can I do my FAA check ride in the UK?
A: Yes, you are PIC on test so you can do it in either a G-reg or N-.aircraft. However, the FAA examiner could insist on do the test in a N-reg aircraft. (Note there are reciprocal arrangements in place for mutual testing in the UK/USA).
Q: My training provider insists that they are fully compliant with the law to do my training should I confirm this with the CAA and the D of T or take his word?
A: No, you should in every case make sure what you are doing complies with the law of the state where your training is taking place.
If anyone needs any further verification please PM and I will provide you with the contact details for the Legal Department of the CAA.
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I dont understand
I want to take my CAA night rating on my N Reg plane with a CAA instrcutor. Can I do this.
I am not sure the questions above answer this.
Also what has the DOT got to do with pilot training. I have never heard this one before. Can someone explain.
I am not sure the questions above answer this.
Also what has the DOT got to do with pilot training. I have never heard this one before. Can someone explain.
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Hi Stuartforrest
Yes you can do your CAA night rating on your aircraft with a CAA instructor, but you still need to get permission from the D of T. For background there is a detailed article in the last issue of UK AOPA's General Aviation magazine entitled "Training case opens a can of worms for N-reg operators". I suggest you get a copy - a relevant highlighted point is: "Few can have sought the permission of the Secretary of State for these (training) flights which makem illegal and by extension invalidates their insurance". Also the instructor had to pay £2500 to the CAA in court costs after pleading guilty.
Yes you can do your CAA night rating on your aircraft with a CAA instructor, but you still need to get permission from the D of T. For background there is a detailed article in the last issue of UK AOPA's General Aviation magazine entitled "Training case opens a can of worms for N-reg operators". I suggest you get a copy - a relevant highlighted point is: "Few can have sought the permission of the Secretary of State for these (training) flights which makem illegal and by extension invalidates their insurance". Also the instructor had to pay £2500 to the CAA in court costs after pleading guilty.
Q: I have complied with the D of T requirements, but the instructor has only FAA licenses and Instructors certificates, if the D of T has given me permission to use him am I legal?
A: No – the D of T and the CAA are two different entities. The CAA can invoke ANO Article 21, which prohibits “any training in any aircraft” by anyone who does not hold the relevant JAA licenses.
A: No – the D of T and the CAA are two different entities. The CAA can invoke ANO Article 21, which prohibits “any training in any aircraft” by anyone who does not hold the relevant JAA licenses.
(3) Subject as aforesaid, a person shall not act as a member of the flight crew required by or under this Order to be carried in an aircraft registered in a country other than the United Kingdom unless:
(a) in the case of an aircraft flying for the purpose of public transport or aerial work, he is the holder of an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under the law of the country in which the aircraft is registered or the State of the operator; or
...
If the instructor has an FAA CPL and CFI, what precisely is being violated?
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UK ANO2000 Article 21 also goes on to state:
"(4) (a) that the holder of a license issued by any ICAO Contracting State - including a JAA State that has not yet been recommended for mutual recognition - cannot:
1. act as a member of the flight crew of any aircraft flying for the purpose of public transport or aerial work or on any flight in respect of which he receives remuneration for his services as a member of the flight crew; or
2. in the case of a pilots license, to act as pilot of any aircraft a flying in controlled airspace in any circumstances requiring compliance with the instrument flight rules or to give any instruction in flying."
I think the intrpretation as far I gathered from the CAA rests on the work any. I may be wrong and the CAA may later put a different interpretation on it, however it hasn't been done yet as far as I know.
"(4) (a) that the holder of a license issued by any ICAO Contracting State - including a JAA State that has not yet been recommended for mutual recognition - cannot:
1. act as a member of the flight crew of any aircraft flying for the purpose of public transport or aerial work or on any flight in respect of which he receives remuneration for his services as a member of the flight crew; or
2. in the case of a pilots license, to act as pilot of any aircraft a flying in controlled airspace in any circumstances requiring compliance with the instrument flight rules or to give any instruction in flying."
I think the intrpretation as far I gathered from the CAA rests on the work any. I may be wrong and the CAA may later put a different interpretation on it, however it hasn't been done yet as far as I know.
I agree that's probably what they're looking at. But it's wrong, because you paraphrase 4(a). Here's 3 again:
(3) Subject as aforesaid, a person shall not act as a member of the flight crew required by or under this Order to be carried in an aircraft registered in a country other than the United Kingdom unless:
(a) in the case of an aircraft flying for the purpose of public transport or aerial work, he is the holder of an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under the law of the country in which the aircraft is registered or the State of the operator;
And here's 4(a)
(4) (a) For the purposes of this Part of this Order subject to sub-paragraph (b), a licence granted either under the law of a Contracting State other than the United Kingdom but which is not a JAA licence or a licence granted under the law of a relevant overseas territory, purporting in either case to authorise the holder thereof to act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft, not being a licence purporting to authorise him to act as a student pilot only, shall, unless the CAA in the particular case gives a direction to the contrary, be deemed to be a licence rendered valid under this Order but does not entitle the holder:
(i) to act as a member of the flight crew of any aircraft flying for the purpose of public transport or aerial work or on any flight in respect of which he receives remuneration for his services as a member of the flight crew; or
(ii) in the case of a pilot’s licence, to act as pilot of any aircraft flying in controlled airspace in circumstances requiring compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules or to give any instruction in flying.
If we interpret "but does not entitle the holder" as applying not just to licences rendered valid under the ANO but also licences granted by a foreign authority and used according to 3(a), then it's not just instruction in flying that would be illegal without a JAA licence but also IFR in controlled airspace. That would ground every foreign airline and would be a breach of the Chicago Convention. Thus sub-paras (i) and (ii) must apply only to the use of foreign licences on G-reg aircraft.
So perhaps you could disclose your source please, porridge?
(3) Subject as aforesaid, a person shall not act as a member of the flight crew required by or under this Order to be carried in an aircraft registered in a country other than the United Kingdom unless:
(a) in the case of an aircraft flying for the purpose of public transport or aerial work, he is the holder of an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under the law of the country in which the aircraft is registered or the State of the operator;
And here's 4(a)
(4) (a) For the purposes of this Part of this Order subject to sub-paragraph (b), a licence granted either under the law of a Contracting State other than the United Kingdom but which is not a JAA licence or a licence granted under the law of a relevant overseas territory, purporting in either case to authorise the holder thereof to act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft, not being a licence purporting to authorise him to act as a student pilot only, shall, unless the CAA in the particular case gives a direction to the contrary, be deemed to be a licence rendered valid under this Order but does not entitle the holder:
(i) to act as a member of the flight crew of any aircraft flying for the purpose of public transport or aerial work or on any flight in respect of which he receives remuneration for his services as a member of the flight crew; or
(ii) in the case of a pilot’s licence, to act as pilot of any aircraft flying in controlled airspace in circumstances requiring compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules or to give any instruction in flying.
If we interpret "but does not entitle the holder" as applying not just to licences rendered valid under the ANO but also licences granted by a foreign authority and used according to 3(a), then it's not just instruction in flying that would be illegal without a JAA licence but also IFR in controlled airspace. That would ground every foreign airline and would be a breach of the Chicago Convention. Thus sub-paras (i) and (ii) must apply only to the use of foreign licences on G-reg aircraft.
So perhaps you could disclose your source please, porridge?
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Porridges postings seem to run contrary to everything I have read in the past. I see that a PM has been sent regarding the source of this advice. I think this is important and that the advice should be promulgated. Perhaps you would share the information?
Regards,
Chopperpilot47
Regards,
Chopperpilot47
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porridge
I still haven't received your PM, but in the meantime can you provide a reference for (or more details of)
I still haven't received your PM, but in the meantime can you provide a reference for (or more details of)
Q: Can I do my FAA check ride in the UK? Q: Can I do my FAA check ride in the UK?
A: Yes, you are PIC on test so you can do it in either a G-reg or N-.aircraft. However, the FAA examiner could insist on do the test in a N-reg aircraft. (Note there are reciprocal arrangements in place for mutual testing in the UK/USA).
A: Yes, you are PIC on test so you can do it in either a G-reg or N-.aircraft. However, the FAA examiner could insist on do the test in a N-reg aircraft. (Note there are reciprocal arrangements in place for mutual testing in the UK/USA).
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Your PMs Porridge are no more than a contact name at the CAA 
It is now pretty clear that what really upset the powers to be was the commentary/article in the AOPA magazine on the prosecution of D Kenyon.
IMHO two things have led to the present manic situation:
1) While most people knew that aerial work in a non-G-reg has always required Secy of State permission, this was never enforced, and the overt behaviour of certain high profile commercial ops made people think it won't ever be
2) The fact that the DfT routinely hands out the permission for training to aircraft owners and small groups has, quite astonishingly, been a well kept secret. This has led to many more people breaking the law - all the more sadly because most of them would have been owner-pilots who would have got the DfT permission anyway.
It is now pretty clear that what really upset the powers to be was the commentary/article in the AOPA magazine on the prosecution of D Kenyon.
IMHO two things have led to the present manic situation:
1) While most people knew that aerial work in a non-G-reg has always required Secy of State permission, this was never enforced, and the overt behaviour of certain high profile commercial ops made people think it won't ever be
2) The fact that the DfT routinely hands out the permission for training to aircraft owners and small groups has, quite astonishingly, been a well kept secret. This has led to many more people breaking the law - all the more sadly because most of them would have been owner-pilots who would have got the DfT permission anyway.
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I may have the wrong end of the stick here and I am sorry if I do.
I have been told, now by more than one person, that in order to fly an N reg Aircraft in the UK you must be an owner of that aircraft, not hiring it just flying it. I am not interested in getting training on the aircraft or hiring it out. However, I may let a very select group of friends use the aircraft that have a sign off for the type aeroplane from an FAA instructor and these people and only these people, who will be fully insured will I allow to fly my aircraft P1.
I understand that there has been a change in the regulations from the CAA side of things but the FAA??? Also does this only affect the Commercial side of things???
Thanks C210
I have been told, now by more than one person, that in order to fly an N reg Aircraft in the UK you must be an owner of that aircraft, not hiring it just flying it. I am not interested in getting training on the aircraft or hiring it out. However, I may let a very select group of friends use the aircraft that have a sign off for the type aeroplane from an FAA instructor and these people and only these people, who will be fully insured will I allow to fly my aircraft P1.
I understand that there has been a change in the regulations from the CAA side of things but the FAA??? Also does this only affect the Commercial side of things???
Thanks C210
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The following advice has just appeared on the DfT website
Foreign registered aircraft may only to be used for flying training in the UK if the flying instructor does not receive valuable consideration for his services or permission has been obtained from the Secretary of States under article 115 of the Air Navigation Order 2000. Flying training includes any flights with instructors which are necessary to maintain the validity of a licence. Aircraft registered in a UK Dependant Territory are not considered to be foreign aircraft for the purposes of article 115.
Permission for flying training will normally be given only to the owners of the aircraft concerned or to any pilot employed by the owner to fly the aircraft on their behalf. If the aircraft is owned by a Trust permission may be given to the trustor. If the trustor is a group or company permission may be given to members of that group or Directors if the number of members or Directors is no more than four. Permission will normally be given for a fixed period up to a maximum of 12 months in duration. Permission will not be granted beyond the validity of the certificate of insurance or the certificate of airworthiness.
It should be noted that the Department is currently reviewing the legislation affecting the use of foreign registered aircraft in the UK. It is possible that the legislation may be amended to prevent foreign registered aircraft which are not involved in commercial air transportation from being permanently based in the UK.
Applications for Permission Under Article 115
Applications for permission to undertake flying training should be made to:
International Aviation and Safety Division
Department for Transport
Zone 1/25
Great Minster House
76 Marsham Street
London
SW1P 4DR
Tel: 0207 944 5847/5806
Fax: 0207 944 2194
Applications should be made at least 30 days before the flying training is due to take place and should include the following
A copy of the Certificate of Airworthiness. If the CofA is not time limited please also supply any additional documentation necessary to prove that it is currently valid (e.g. the latest annual maintenance entry in the aircraft log book).
A copy of the Certificate of Registration. If the registered owner is a Trustee, a copy of the trust documents.
A copy of the Certificate of Insurance.
A copy of the Radio Station Licence if the aircraft is equipped with radio transmitting equipment.
Details of the person(s) being trained and the type of training being undertaken.
Details of how long the aircraft will be in the UK, where it is based and where it will be maintained
Confirmation that, to the best of the applicant's knowledge, the person(s) to be trained meets the medical standards for pilots established in Annex 1 to the Chicago Convention.
Confirmation that, to the best of the applicant's knowledge, all flight crew licences relevant to the flights covered by the permit meet the standards established in Annex 1 to the Chicago Convention.
Confirmation that, to the best of the applicants knowledge, the operation of the aircraft will be conducted in accordance with the requirements of Part II of Annex 6 to the Chicago Convention.
Confirmation that the pilot is aware of all requirements of the Air Navigation Order 2000(as amended) and associated Regulations which will apply to intended flights.
Applications can be submitted on the application form below:
Foreign registered aircraft may only to be used for flying training in the UK if the flying instructor does not receive valuable consideration for his services or permission has been obtained from the Secretary of States under article 115 of the Air Navigation Order 2000. Flying training includes any flights with instructors which are necessary to maintain the validity of a licence. Aircraft registered in a UK Dependant Territory are not considered to be foreign aircraft for the purposes of article 115.
Permission for flying training will normally be given only to the owners of the aircraft concerned or to any pilot employed by the owner to fly the aircraft on their behalf. If the aircraft is owned by a Trust permission may be given to the trustor. If the trustor is a group or company permission may be given to members of that group or Directors if the number of members or Directors is no more than four. Permission will normally be given for a fixed period up to a maximum of 12 months in duration. Permission will not be granted beyond the validity of the certificate of insurance or the certificate of airworthiness.
It should be noted that the Department is currently reviewing the legislation affecting the use of foreign registered aircraft in the UK. It is possible that the legislation may be amended to prevent foreign registered aircraft which are not involved in commercial air transportation from being permanently based in the UK.
Applications for Permission Under Article 115
Applications for permission to undertake flying training should be made to:
International Aviation and Safety Division
Department for Transport
Zone 1/25
Great Minster House
76 Marsham Street
London
SW1P 4DR
Tel: 0207 944 5847/5806
Fax: 0207 944 2194
Applications should be made at least 30 days before the flying training is due to take place and should include the following
A copy of the Certificate of Airworthiness. If the CofA is not time limited please also supply any additional documentation necessary to prove that it is currently valid (e.g. the latest annual maintenance entry in the aircraft log book).
A copy of the Certificate of Registration. If the registered owner is a Trustee, a copy of the trust documents.
A copy of the Certificate of Insurance.
A copy of the Radio Station Licence if the aircraft is equipped with radio transmitting equipment.
Details of the person(s) being trained and the type of training being undertaken.
Details of how long the aircraft will be in the UK, where it is based and where it will be maintained
Confirmation that, to the best of the applicant's knowledge, the person(s) to be trained meets the medical standards for pilots established in Annex 1 to the Chicago Convention.
Confirmation that, to the best of the applicant's knowledge, all flight crew licences relevant to the flights covered by the permit meet the standards established in Annex 1 to the Chicago Convention.
Confirmation that, to the best of the applicants knowledge, the operation of the aircraft will be conducted in accordance with the requirements of Part II of Annex 6 to the Chicago Convention.
Confirmation that the pilot is aware of all requirements of the Air Navigation Order 2000(as amended) and associated Regulations which will apply to intended flights.
Applications can be submitted on the application form below:
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tot
i wont ever pay you then
go to it man
this info relates to forign aircraft what about a jar/jaa aircraft say from france germany ect
i thought jar /jaa was suposed to stop this
steve
i wont ever pay you then
go to it man
this info relates to forign aircraft what about a jar/jaa aircraft say from france germany ect
i thought jar /jaa was suposed to stop this
steve
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That DfT letter is mostly consistent with what they've been telling people on the phone, which I suppose is good news....
I do wonder however why they insist on Directors rather than just shareholders.
In a lot of ltd company syndicates, there is just one Director and he looks after the company, the books, etc. the other members are mere shareholders. That's the whole point of a ltd company as opposed to a partnership: exceptional situations aside, a shareholder doesn't have liability for the actions of other shareholders.
Perhaps they want to prevent some "creative" flying school selling 1 share to each of 4 students?
That's the problem with aviation. There's always some smart a**e trying to push things, and usually it is on the training front. When I spoke to the CAA, they blamed this clampdown on "abuse", and also on certain magazine articles.
The vast majority of N-reg private pilots are just happy to quietly go about their own business. Most FAA IRs are experienced high-hour pilots so safety isn't an argument.
But since when did flight training businesses have a real interest in flying?
I do wonder however why they insist on Directors rather than just shareholders.
In a lot of ltd company syndicates, there is just one Director and he looks after the company, the books, etc. the other members are mere shareholders. That's the whole point of a ltd company as opposed to a partnership: exceptional situations aside, a shareholder doesn't have liability for the actions of other shareholders.
Perhaps they want to prevent some "creative" flying school selling 1 share to each of 4 students?
That's the problem with aviation. There's always some smart a**e trying to push things, and usually it is on the training front. When I spoke to the CAA, they blamed this clampdown on "abuse", and also on certain magazine articles.
The vast majority of N-reg private pilots are just happy to quietly go about their own business. Most FAA IRs are experienced high-hour pilots so safety isn't an argument.
But since when did flight training businesses have a real interest in flying?
Just wanted to follow up on a post early in this thread.
Porridge wrote:
which I questioned.
The relevant regulation is actually Article 29, which makes specific requirements for giving instruction in flying for the grant or renewal of a licence or rating (regardless of the state of issue of the licence). Thus the answer is, I believe, correct, even though the citation is not.
Porridge wrote:
Q: I have complied with the D of T requirements, but the instructor has only FAA licenses and Instructors certificates, if the D of T has given me permission to use him am I legal?
A: No – the D of T and the CAA are two different entities. The CAA can invoke ANO Article 21, which prohibits “any training in any aircraft” by anyone who does not hold the relevant JAA licenses.
A: No – the D of T and the CAA are two different entities. The CAA can invoke ANO Article 21, which prohibits “any training in any aircraft” by anyone who does not hold the relevant JAA licenses.
The relevant regulation is actually Article 29, which makes specific requirements for giving instruction in flying for the grant or renewal of a licence or rating (regardless of the state of issue of the licence). Thus the answer is, I believe, correct, even though the citation is not.