Punter's point of view
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What used to annoy me was PPLs with differing backgrounds of training and experience pitch up for a check ride and when asked to do a weight & balance calc or performance calc-didnt have the fogiest clue.Or didnt even know where to get the info.Thats surely a case of passed that in the exam-dont need to remember that.
How long does it take-about 15/20 minutes.
How long does it take-about 15/20 minutes.
Joined: Jan 1999
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From: north of barlu
Frank i think it,s just the two of us who start the check out with the w&b and performance..........i had one guy walk out when i asked him for the TOW CofG and take off roll for the day as he walked out he muttered "i have an FAA CPL and dont have to do all this stuff to fly a PA28"
Please guys dont start an anti american war over one idiot !.
Please guys dont start an anti american war over one idiot !.
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WWW,
You're missing my point. To continue with that example, if I'm happily putting carb heat back on short final with no problem, I don't an instructor deciding that I shouldn't be doing it. Or if he's convinced he's right for some reason, an explanation along the lines of: "We're ending up too high/low, I think you're getting overloaded, maybe if you didn't do that even if you've been taught to, try my way and see if it helps...." or something like that, might help. Telling me to do something your way just because you say so, may or may not be instructional technique, but it comes over to the student as arrogance.
Whirly
You're missing my point. To continue with that example, if I'm happily putting carb heat back on short final with no problem, I don't an instructor deciding that I shouldn't be doing it. Or if he's convinced he's right for some reason, an explanation along the lines of: "We're ending up too high/low, I think you're getting overloaded, maybe if you didn't do that even if you've been taught to, try my way and see if it helps...." or something like that, might help. Telling me to do something your way just because you say so, may or may not be instructional technique, but it comes over to the student as arrogance.
Whirly
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I teach flaps up (in C152 and C172) as soon as touched down and STAYED DOWN, otherwise the flukey winds here tend to pick you up again. Also a good habit to form (I've found) for short strips to stick to the ground instead of bouncy-bouncy-bouncing down the runway.
I recently did a night rating for a guy who hadn't flown with an instructor since his PPL BFR 18 months ago. He flew so well I didn't dare demonstrate anything
and accepted his habits (in general) until I saw him put the carb heat away at 500' on final. Told him the story of the B-Cat instructor doing the A-Cat flight test, carb heat off at 500' and engine failed at 300'. The moral (which is policy and SOP here) is don't go CH cold until you need full power, the reasoning is you get more from the throttle than you do from the CH in the event of a go around.
Where I learnt, the reasoning for putting it cold at 300' was "it's in the checklist, and you'll follow the checklist or you'll never graduate." Guess which one I prefer.
I think the "follow checklists" vs. "think about what you are doing, and operate appropriately" are not, repeat NOT mutually exclusive. The checklist is there for normal operations. If there is anything abnormal in the pilot's opinion, then it MUST be their responsibility to deviate from the normal procedures.
I thought I read "rouge pilot" somewhere here, is that too much makeup on and the headset keeps sliding off?
A fine thread this is too. But please don't start me on American pilots.
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Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.
I recently did a night rating for a guy who hadn't flown with an instructor since his PPL BFR 18 months ago. He flew so well I didn't dare demonstrate anything
and accepted his habits (in general) until I saw him put the carb heat away at 500' on final. Told him the story of the B-Cat instructor doing the A-Cat flight test, carb heat off at 500' and engine failed at 300'. The moral (which is policy and SOP here) is don't go CH cold until you need full power, the reasoning is you get more from the throttle than you do from the CH in the event of a go around.Where I learnt, the reasoning for putting it cold at 300' was "it's in the checklist, and you'll follow the checklist or you'll never graduate." Guess which one I prefer.
I think the "follow checklists" vs. "think about what you are doing, and operate appropriately" are not, repeat NOT mutually exclusive. The checklist is there for normal operations. If there is anything abnormal in the pilot's opinion, then it MUST be their responsibility to deviate from the normal procedures.
I thought I read "rouge pilot" somewhere here, is that too much makeup on and the headset keeps sliding off?
A fine thread this is too. But please don't start me on American pilots.
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Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.
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From: Australia
On the carby heat on final theme, and going back to the owner and operator having a say in the SOPs...
Hot air is unfiltered and if you are the one who has to pay for the next engine (say AU$30 000.00 ish) you may not like the idea of people landing your aeroplane on dusty airsrtips with carby heat hot!
I teach check for ice on downwind as part of the BUMFCH check then leave it alone. I don't mind if people come from elsewhere and keep it hot on finals, so long as it goes cold for landing.
Hot air is unfiltered and if you are the one who has to pay for the next engine (say AU$30 000.00 ish) you may not like the idea of people landing your aeroplane on dusty airsrtips with carby heat hot!
I teach check for ice on downwind as part of the BUMFCH check then leave it alone. I don't mind if people come from elsewhere and keep it hot on finals, so long as it goes cold for landing.
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I think the above debate has proved my point. There are many ways to deal with carb heat on finals. If you are teaching a student from scratch (or pre PPL) then by all means take a stand and stick to it, if I come and want you to teach me additional skills, please don't make me re-learn how to fly finals.
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Chicken6 and Charlie Foxtrot India,
Jeeeez, now I don't know what to do!
To be honest, I learned both ways and didn't think it was that big a deal. It seemed to me you were unlikely to have engine failure on short final, and also unlikely to need all the power you could possibly get for a go around. Then one day at Welshpool - 800 metre very narrow runway with trees at far end - I was waiting to take off when a Cessna 152 landed long, bounced, and tried to go around. He was obviously having problems getting full power and was heading straight for the trees. I couldn't look and my co-pilot was halfway out the door to get help, when we realised he'd made it, literally by inches. I don't know if his problem was having carb heat on, but I always thought it could have been. It was after that I decided it was easier to remember carb heat back on final, than to do it when you're narrowly averting disaster in the event of a last minute go around.
OK, I think I've now decided. Carb heat in at about 200 feet or lower, but before landing. And I won't listen to anyone who tells me otherwise! On second thoughts I think I'll stick to helicopters
But seriously, this is a useful discussion guys. TELL your students these sort of things. Don't just demand they do it because you say so.
Whirly
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To fly is human, to hover, divine.
Jeeeez, now I don't know what to do!
To be honest, I learned both ways and didn't think it was that big a deal. It seemed to me you were unlikely to have engine failure on short final, and also unlikely to need all the power you could possibly get for a go around. Then one day at Welshpool - 800 metre very narrow runway with trees at far end - I was waiting to take off when a Cessna 152 landed long, bounced, and tried to go around. He was obviously having problems getting full power and was heading straight for the trees. I couldn't look and my co-pilot was halfway out the door to get help, when we realised he'd made it, literally by inches. I don't know if his problem was having carb heat on, but I always thought it could have been. It was after that I decided it was easier to remember carb heat back on final, than to do it when you're narrowly averting disaster in the event of a last minute go around.
OK, I think I've now decided. Carb heat in at about 200 feet or lower, but before landing. And I won't listen to anyone who tells me otherwise! On second thoughts I think I'll stick to helicopters
But seriously, this is a useful discussion guys. TELL your students these sort of things. Don't just demand they do it because you say so.
Whirly
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To fly is human, to hover, divine.
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The teaching on the use of carb heat and variations I have heard over the years
are quite large varying from no use at all.
The bottom line is the procedures defined
in the POH, flight manual and common sense
Its instilling the latter, rather than the monkey see monkey do approach that is hard.
are quite large varying from no use at all.
The bottom line is the procedures defined
in the POH, flight manual and common sense
Its instilling the latter, rather than the monkey see monkey do approach that is hard.
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This is an interesting thread - here's a punter perspective, which I hope is helpful.
I am a PPL and don't mind two approaches to the training of procedures by instructors -(a) use approved organisational SOPs - e.g. like OATS who publish a comprehensive company checklist for the PA28 or (b) use the manufacurers POH. Either way, the approach is "right", becuase it is officially proven and consistent.
What I find intensely irritating is an instructor who uses neither. e.g. a few years ago I was checking out on one of the heavier singles and landing on a short field [with a flying club without their own checklist/POH.]
As soon as we touched down [and stayed down], I retracted the flaps. The instructor immediately re-deployed them and gave me a lecture all the way back to the parking area about the evils of "doing your after landing checks on the roll."
Have suffered this running tirade without answering back [I don't think that arguing and taxying mix too well] I shutdown and retrieved the manufacturer's POH from the seat back and pointed out that my procedure was defined by the manufacturer and had nothing to do with after landing checks.
Strangely enough, he had little to say when I asked him where he though that his intervention added value to my learning experience.
I also strongly support the instructors on the forum who expect PPLs to be able to calculate C of G and take off roll - the P in PPL may literally mean private priviliges, but it should also denote a professional attitude to flying.
I hope you don't mind me "lurking" on your forum, I'm not a wannabe, just a guy who loves flying and benefits from the obvious wisdom and experience shared.
Just out of interest, whre do you guys stand on the use of commercially available third party checklists which are not officially approved documents?
I am a PPL and don't mind two approaches to the training of procedures by instructors -(a) use approved organisational SOPs - e.g. like OATS who publish a comprehensive company checklist for the PA28 or (b) use the manufacurers POH. Either way, the approach is "right", becuase it is officially proven and consistent.
What I find intensely irritating is an instructor who uses neither. e.g. a few years ago I was checking out on one of the heavier singles and landing on a short field [with a flying club without their own checklist/POH.]
As soon as we touched down [and stayed down], I retracted the flaps. The instructor immediately re-deployed them and gave me a lecture all the way back to the parking area about the evils of "doing your after landing checks on the roll."
Have suffered this running tirade without answering back [I don't think that arguing and taxying mix too well] I shutdown and retrieved the manufacturer's POH from the seat back and pointed out that my procedure was defined by the manufacturer and had nothing to do with after landing checks.
Strangely enough, he had little to say when I asked him where he though that his intervention added value to my learning experience.
I also strongly support the instructors on the forum who expect PPLs to be able to calculate C of G and take off roll - the P in PPL may literally mean private priviliges, but it should also denote a professional attitude to flying.
I hope you don't mind me "lurking" on your forum, I'm not a wannabe, just a guy who loves flying and benefits from the obvious wisdom and experience shared.
Just out of interest, whre do you guys stand on the use of commercially available third party checklists which are not officially approved documents?
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Returning briefly to the carb heat thing, my initial PPL(A) training taught me to put carb heat away on the ground after landing, or immediately after throttle fully open for a go-around.
Learning to fly helicopters in Australia, the only time I really touched the carb heat ( this is in an R22 ) was during the power checks. Converting my Australian PPL(H) to a UK one, the school I went to teach ( as per R22 POH ) full carb heat below 18" MP, and no carb heat below 200' on finals - it makes a considerable power difference ( I've seen up to 1.5" MP ) if you're a fat b***ard like me.
Personally I'd have like to have been taought correct use of carby heat in Aus - even though in Sydney temperatures rarely dip to the point of needing it, go flying in the Snowy Mountains and it's a different ball game - last thing you want is an ice-induced engine failure !!
Learning to fly helicopters in Australia, the only time I really touched the carb heat ( this is in an R22 ) was during the power checks. Converting my Australian PPL(H) to a UK one, the school I went to teach ( as per R22 POH ) full carb heat below 18" MP, and no carb heat below 200' on finals - it makes a considerable power difference ( I've seen up to 1.5" MP ) if you're a fat b***ard like me.
Personally I'd have like to have been taought correct use of carby heat in Aus - even though in Sydney temperatures rarely dip to the point of needing it, go flying in the Snowy Mountains and it's a different ball game - last thing you want is an ice-induced engine failure !!
Joined: Jan 1999
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From: north of barlu
A warning to you all that carb icing is also a function of intake shape and diferent types of aircraft with the same engine type may pick up ice at diferent rates.
I have found that robin aircraft pick up ice much more that the pipers despite the fact that the engine is identical.
I am sure more examples of this can be found.
I have found that robin aircraft pick up ice much more that the pipers despite the fact that the engine is identical.
I am sure more examples of this can be found.
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On the carb heat issue, I've always been taught carb heat ON as you reduce power (on base leg) and then OFF on short finals in case you have to GA. Some of the posts on this thread seem to be indicating the opposite, or did I have too much to drink last night?
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Very good thread and thanks for the use of the lurking privileges. More cat-skinning on carb heat: a few posts up a contributor referred to opening the throttle on go around and then setting carb heat to cold. I have heard some instructors suggest that this could produce a rich cut (too much fuel, not enough air, glug glug, putter putter, stop stop).
I usually remember to shove the heat to cold before applying full power in any situation, and was always told to get rid of the heat at 300 agl on final, principally to facilitate the go around if needed and secondarily to stop the engine getting clagged up by unfiltered air as you pile onto the field in a flurry of dust, feathers and wet grass.
On clean ups on the roll: at least one instructor I have flown with insisted I do them when clear of the runway, but whenever he landed the beast he always did them on the roll. This may have been a judgment as to student capacity thing. I must confess that I have taken to cleaning up on the runway these days (If he's reading these he'll come round and tw*t me). Are there not good aerodynamic reasons for raising flaps as soon as the aircraft is safely down (OK it helps if the idiot designer hasn't stuck a gear handle or switch right next to the flap handle or switch), but all the rest (fuel pump, transponder, VOR etc) could wait for later and may be better done from checklist simply because they are fiddly and easy to forget.
I usually remember to shove the heat to cold before applying full power in any situation, and was always told to get rid of the heat at 300 agl on final, principally to facilitate the go around if needed and secondarily to stop the engine getting clagged up by unfiltered air as you pile onto the field in a flurry of dust, feathers and wet grass.
On clean ups on the roll: at least one instructor I have flown with insisted I do them when clear of the runway, but whenever he landed the beast he always did them on the roll. This may have been a judgment as to student capacity thing. I must confess that I have taken to cleaning up on the runway these days (If he's reading these he'll come round and tw*t me). Are there not good aerodynamic reasons for raising flaps as soon as the aircraft is safely down (OK it helps if the idiot designer hasn't stuck a gear handle or switch right next to the flap handle or switch), but all the rest (fuel pump, transponder, VOR etc) could wait for later and may be better done from checklist simply because they are fiddly and easy to forget.
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Here's another refugee from Private Flying, I was taught the same as FNG, carb heat on before reducing power and off on finals. As I understand it, carb heat should be off before applying full power cos the engine does not need to be sucking hot air when it's being asked to produce full power (and heat).
I usually fly behind a Continental A-65 or an O-200 both notorious carb ice generators so I apply carb heat every 10 minutes or so in the cruise regardless of conditions. As the venturi effect and fuel evaporation process in the carb throat can produce a temerature drop approaching -50 C, outside air temperature can easily become irrelevant in a moderatly humid environment.
Check out the accident section in GASIL to see how many "engine stopped. Carb ice suspected" incidents there are. A lot of people are not getting it right it seems.
I usually fly behind a Continental A-65 or an O-200 both notorious carb ice generators so I apply carb heat every 10 minutes or so in the cruise regardless of conditions. As the venturi effect and fuel evaporation process in the carb throat can produce a temerature drop approaching -50 C, outside air temperature can easily become irrelevant in a moderatly humid environment.
Check out the accident section in GASIL to see how many "engine stopped. Carb ice suspected" incidents there are. A lot of people are not getting it right it seems.
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 6,209
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From: north of barlu
Rich cut on full power aplication with carb heat on........I think not on eny modern aircraft engine this seems to be another ongoing myth probably from the Bristol mercury engine so remember that next time you fly a gladiator.
the carb heat should be cold on the GA to get max power.
the carb heat should be cold on the GA to get max power.
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Blimey, there goes my Gladiator type rating again. So much for Faith, Hope and whatever the other one was called (Big Issue or something, I seem to recall).
Request to Capt Fyne: how about a forum dedicated to aviation's urban myths? Prizes (pref non existent ones) could be awarded to the credulous and for the incredible.
Remember, on Hallowe'en the footprints of Ginger the ghostly aviator are once again seen on the ceiling of the clubhouse....
Request to Capt Fyne: how about a forum dedicated to aviation's urban myths? Prizes (pref non existent ones) could be awarded to the credulous and for the incredible.
Remember, on Hallowe'en the footprints of Ginger the ghostly aviator are once again seen on the ceiling of the clubhouse....