Dodgy flying school going ons. What to do?
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Why on earth is it NECESSARY? With FIs getting paid ten quid an hour it's hardly a money-spinner to have a PPL flying it instead of an instructor. And since it's allegedly happening at a school it's not as if they have a problem with instructor availability.
NS
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North South,
You are quite correct - big difference between supervision and observation!
However;
But if he's working on his own he'll never get his 25 sup. solos - unless he fiddles them, but no-one does that
Provided that he does not authorise any first solos or any first solo crosscountry flights, there is nothing stopping them from gaining their required solo supervisions on all the other solo flights that students make - second, third fourth solo etc and second/subsequent navigation solos!
Regards,
DFC
You are quite correct - big difference between supervision and observation!
However;
But if he's working on his own he'll never get his 25 sup. solos - unless he fiddles them, but no-one does that
Provided that he does not authorise any first solos or any first solo crosscountry flights, there is nothing stopping them from gaining their required solo supervisions on all the other solo flights that students make - second, third fourth solo etc and second/subsequent navigation solos!
Regards,
DFC
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It does seem that there is a lack of instructors at this particular school which has prompted this sort of unacceptable behaviour.
NorthSouth, I did consider going and talking 'man to man', but I'm not sure how productive that would be. I don't work there any more and since I know only instruct for a bit of fun, I am not particularily worried about stepping on toes about this, but it would make them aware that this has been noticed and unfortunately it may lead to a fast bit of record changing. (If they weren't falsified already.)
I know the campaign have proved themselves pretty toothless at times, but I reckon this is something they could get their baby teeth into.
This sort of thing needs to be stamped on and fast. I may yet take the bull by the horns, but at the moment I would like to see what the authority will do first.
I really wish I could just name the school and spread the word, but I don't think Danny would appreciate that somehow!
NorthSouth, I did consider going and talking 'man to man', but I'm not sure how productive that would be. I don't work there any more and since I know only instruct for a bit of fun, I am not particularily worried about stepping on toes about this, but it would make them aware that this has been noticed and unfortunately it may lead to a fast bit of record changing. (If they weren't falsified already.)
I know the campaign have proved themselves pretty toothless at times, but I reckon this is something they could get their baby teeth into.
This sort of thing needs to be stamped on and fast. I may yet take the bull by the horns, but at the moment I would like to see what the authority will do first.
I really wish I could just name the school and spread the word, but I don't think Danny would appreciate that somehow!
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This will be the same Director who, shortly after taking over the reins at this establishment :-
(a) announced that it's not necessary to be an FI to perform the functions of a CFI
(b) posed the zen-like question "What is an instructor anyway?"
(c) is known to associate with a certain other infamous PPL CFI, from whose temple of wisdom he has doubtless graduated.
...such thoughts promptly inspired most of his instructors to resign and pursue their destiny elsewhere.
The subsequent nominal or "puppet" CFI ( I'm doing him a favour here, since this would be his best line of defence in court if the above allegations are true) recently stood up at a social gathering within the club and announced that things had greatly improved since they had got rid of the old instructors - much to the disgust of many club members who, unlike him, had experience of the club with the previous instructor team, and actually knew the difference.
The current situation as outlined in previous posts would therefore be laughably farcical were it not so wilfully negligent and dangerous with regard to public safety. It is scarcely possible for a driver to obtain insurance to transport a member of the public on the road in a taxi until he is aged 25 - to put a 17 year old in such a position in an aeroplane without fit and proper experience, qualifications and insurance would be a serious crime.
I sincerely urge any instructor associated with this outfit who may be aware of such goings-on to resign as soon as they possibly can for the sake of their own professional integrity, and the hard-won priviledges contained in their own licence.
"What is an instructor anyway?"
....The only way he'll learn the answer to that is when he no longer has any.
(a) announced that it's not necessary to be an FI to perform the functions of a CFI
(b) posed the zen-like question "What is an instructor anyway?"
(c) is known to associate with a certain other infamous PPL CFI, from whose temple of wisdom he has doubtless graduated.
...such thoughts promptly inspired most of his instructors to resign and pursue their destiny elsewhere.
The subsequent nominal or "puppet" CFI ( I'm doing him a favour here, since this would be his best line of defence in court if the above allegations are true) recently stood up at a social gathering within the club and announced that things had greatly improved since they had got rid of the old instructors - much to the disgust of many club members who, unlike him, had experience of the club with the previous instructor team, and actually knew the difference.
The current situation as outlined in previous posts would therefore be laughably farcical were it not so wilfully negligent and dangerous with regard to public safety. It is scarcely possible for a driver to obtain insurance to transport a member of the public on the road in a taxi until he is aged 25 - to put a 17 year old in such a position in an aeroplane without fit and proper experience, qualifications and insurance would be a serious crime.
I sincerely urge any instructor associated with this outfit who may be aware of such goings-on to resign as soon as they possibly can for the sake of their own professional integrity, and the hard-won priviledges contained in their own licence.
"What is an instructor anyway?"
....The only way he'll learn the answer to that is when he no longer has any.
Last edited by Blackshift; 18th Feb 2005 at 06:43.
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A phonecall and letter to the Belgrano has been done, but like everything, there is a procedure and like it or not we are all innocent until proven guilty.
Going in guns blazing may make you feel better, but at the end of the day procedures need to be followed. So it may be better if the previous poster removed the name of the school. I'm not confirming it's them however.
Going in guns blazing may make you feel better, but at the end of the day procedures need to be followed. So it may be better if the previous poster removed the name of the school. I'm not confirming it's them however.
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I have removed my post naming the school in Glenrothes, not that it's their of course.
The CAA had better bloody do something about this sort of behaviour before it pervades the rest of our professional enviroment. I just know the minute i inavertantly do something wrong i'll have people down on me like a loads of bricks.
cheers Tonker
The CAA had better bloody do something about this sort of behaviour before it pervades the rest of our professional enviroment. I just know the minute i inavertantly do something wrong i'll have people down on me like a loads of bricks.
cheers Tonker
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If you know someone has burgled your neighbours house, do you ask others what you should do or contact the police?
If the law is being broken surely the only people who should be informed are the appropriate authorities. If the criminal law is being broken surely that is the police. Illegal operations do the cause of aviation no good at all, neither does public hand wringing.
And for the conspiracy theorists....if one business is in competition with another business one method sometimes used by unsavoury competition is the dissemination of false information to dissuade prospective new clients. Whilst I am sure this is not the case in this case and I am not for one instance casting any doubt on any claim made in the above post, this is perhaps the wrong arena in which to discuss such matters.
If the law is being broken surely the only people who should be informed are the appropriate authorities. If the criminal law is being broken surely that is the police. Illegal operations do the cause of aviation no good at all, neither does public hand wringing.
And for the conspiracy theorists....if one business is in competition with another business one method sometimes used by unsavoury competition is the dissemination of false information to dissuade prospective new clients. Whilst I am sure this is not the case in this case and I am not for one instance casting any doubt on any claim made in the above post, this is perhaps the wrong arena in which to discuss such matters.
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In response to the last post, it is a fair point that some people may use this sort of thing for their own ends. Not in this situation however.
I have no connection with any school in that area and this is not motivated by anything other than horror that this sort of thing happens.
It's not as cut and dried as the analogy you use referencing a house being burgled, unfortunately.
We'll have to see what happens.
I have no connection with any school in that area and this is not motivated by anything other than horror that this sort of thing happens.
It's not as cut and dried as the analogy you use referencing a house being burgled, unfortunately.
We'll have to see what happens.
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If the law does not appear to show sufficient teeth when dealing with such matters, as has been suggested by others above, this is indeed an appropriate forum for such discussion.
It is not, however, an appropriate place to name the alleged perpetrators of criminal activity.
It is not, however, an appropriate place to name the alleged perpetrators of criminal activity.
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How is burglery a more criminal act than acting not in accordance with the ANO? Because it is an offence against the person? How much damage could this person do to the whole flight training industry if he were allowed to continue operating and went on to have an accident. The press would have a field day, the NIMBY's would be given yet more ammunition to bash flying schools with etc. If a person suspects a pilot of being drunk, they tell the police (witness the farce of the Manchester go-arounds). How is this case any different?
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In this case, irrespective of the legal outcome, we have the ability to influence our peers not to stand for such conduct within their own zone of influence.
In doing so we can help to protect the good name of the industry and avert a tragedy that would provide fodder for public scandal.
It's quite simple really and its Pprune at its best.
In doing so we can help to protect the good name of the industry and avert a tragedy that would provide fodder for public scandal.
It's quite simple really and its Pprune at its best.
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Yeah, there's nothing you can't fix with a trip to Halfords, a hammer, and the Haynes Workshop manual for the Katana. Who needs engineers?!? Or properly qualified flying instructors for that matter? It's a free-for-all folks! Do what you like!
ST
ST
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Any instructor who turns up for work at such an establishment without complaint in the full knowledge of what is going on is criminally complicit, and should hang their head in shame.
You know who you are.
The proverbial dogs in the street will know who you are by now.
You know who you are.
The proverbial dogs in the street will know who you are by now.
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I know who they are....
It is really bad...if it's happened twice, then it will happen again.
I once heard the new 'director' clear an aircraft for take off (not a controlled airport) with the CFI around and the CFI did not say a word about it, probably too scared to open his mouth. What a man!
Blackshift is absolutely right...
Shame on the 17 year old too who obviously does not know about the privileges of his licence.
SAS, I know who you are talking about and I definitely agree with you, these people are dangerous and not very professional, to say the least....They are just in for the money, they know absolutely nothing about aviation!
Take the matter as far as you can with the campaign.
Good luck
It is really bad...if it's happened twice, then it will happen again.
I once heard the new 'director' clear an aircraft for take off (not a controlled airport) with the CFI around and the CFI did not say a word about it, probably too scared to open his mouth. What a man!
Blackshift is absolutely right...
Shame on the 17 year old too who obviously does not know about the privileges of his licence.
SAS, I know who you are talking about and I definitely agree with you, these people are dangerous and not very professional, to say the least....They are just in for the money, they know absolutely nothing about aviation!
Take the matter as far as you can with the campaign.
Good luck
Last edited by Another Pilot 2005; 23rd Feb 2005 at 18:00.
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Guys, before you bust a blood vessel shopping allegedly illegal activity to the CAA just take a moment to consider the one missing item in all of this - the changing hands of money. If these alleged flights took place but the person receiving the flight did not give or promise valuable consideration then there is nothing illegal about them. If money did change hands then sure, go ahead and shop. But make sure you have the evidence before you waste the CAA's time and blacken fellow pilots' names. Some of you seem to have personal knowledge of this school. But the money side of any flying school is an administrative matter which may not be visible to the passing observer. Make sure you know what you are talking about.
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Sausages
Just wondered if their was such a thing as a Cumbernauld sausage.
I've heard if you witness one smoking and then get the next chef to take it for inspection....say Belfast.....the chances are that the chef who has taken the sausage for inspection would have his life put at risk as he wasn't aware of the previous problem. He would then probably have to crash his sausage at any availble site.
Of course the chef who sent this bod on this suicide trip would obviously be reported and dealt with...........or not as the case may be!!
I suppose this is why they're called bangers
I've heard if you witness one smoking and then get the next chef to take it for inspection....say Belfast.....the chances are that the chef who has taken the sausage for inspection would have his life put at risk as he wasn't aware of the previous problem. He would then probably have to crash his sausage at any availble site.
Of course the chef who sent this bod on this suicide trip would obviously be reported and dealt with...........or not as the case may be!!
I suppose this is why they're called bangers
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But make sure you have the evidence before you waste the CAA's time and blacken fellow pilots' names.
When this thread appeared last year I hoped it would serve as a shot across the bows for the operator concerned not to continue with such practices.
The more recent allegations, which are even worse, have also reached my own ears from a trusted source.
Bearing in mind that the operator concerned will no doubt have the gumption not to leave a transparent paper trail for any passing CAA inspector, what do you suggest would be the best course of action - to do and say nothing?
Lets not bother the busy and important men at the CAA.
Lets not go casting aspersions on our fellow aviators.
Lets just wait until it all goes tragically wrong one day.
Then those of us who knew what was happening can just quietly shrug and continue on our way without having troubled anyone about something that wasn't our doing anyway.
Thank you for taking an interest in my conscience.
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sas:
But you do need to say more don't you? Certainly if these alleged flights were given in exchange for gift vouchers which were submitted to the operator and receipted then there's illegality. But as I said in my previous post you would have to be able to show that the gift voucher was used for that flight.
Looking back, all of this was already said way back last August by tacpot and jaarrgh. It's still true even though it's me saying it.
Gift vouchers, say no more........
Looking back, all of this was already said way back last August by tacpot and jaarrgh. It's still true even though it's me saying it.