"your circuits are too wide"
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There is a limit to the nanny society approach to life in aviation. Trainee pilots must understand that aviation requires discipline - and an example of that is accurate circuit flying!! Although we don't push civilian trainee pilots as hard as the military do, they MUST DO THINGS PROPERLY!! The whining "it's doin' me 'ead in" teenager has to be told "Do it right, or not at all. Your choice, pure and simple". I get totally fed up with some of the ridiculous nannying that goes on nowadays - I once heard an instructor telling his student that it was vital to carry a bottle of water in the cockpit of a PA28 to avoid dehydration.....in the UK in April on a 1 hour navex!??!!
Glasgow's Gallus Gigolo .... PPRuNeing is like making love to a beautiful woman ... I take hours.
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I have to adnit, I'm with Apache and BEagle on this one- maybe it's because I taught for years at an airfield where you go into the nearest MATZ if you too wide downwind!
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Diesel8.....do you want someone in your circuit who has been taught properly....or someone who thinks that they can do what they like because "it's a little bit harder today than yesterday....and mummy isn't with me"?
I say..."teach them properly or not at all!"
I know I never felt guilty about taking home a paypacket after teaching students properly....how about you?
I say..."teach them properly or not at all!"
I know I never felt guilty about taking home a paypacket after teaching students properly....how about you?
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Jatz...thank you for your concern.As a matter of fact I am aware of "proper procedures" for questions, and I did make sure that the student had left and there were only instructors about.Two reasons for this....1- NEVER EVER chastise an instructor in front of his/her student...
2- I may be wrong!and I don't want to be corrected in front of students!
I was very polite and sincere and got a very rude response from this instructor...which upset me a little.
A smile costs nothing....rudeness may cost you your career!
2- I may be wrong!and I don't want to be corrected in front of students!
I was very polite and sincere and got a very rude response from this instructor...which upset me a little.
A smile costs nothing....rudeness may cost you your career!
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class-e
I had a similar situation where a superior undermined my authority in front of a group of subordinates.
I took said person away from view, shirt fronted him and said "Don't you ever embarrass me in front of the others like that again".
After he cleaned his strides, I never had another problem with him again.
May not work or be appropriate in all circumstances but it certainly shows the other person you will not be walked over.
I had a similar situation where a superior undermined my authority in front of a group of subordinates.
I took said person away from view, shirt fronted him and said "Don't you ever embarrass me in front of the others like that again".
After he cleaned his strides, I never had another problem with him again.
May not work or be appropriate in all circumstances but it certainly shows the other person you will not be walked over.
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DB-6...what is your aim in instructing?To let the students' abilities(or lack of) dictate the whole circuit pattern?To make the feel like Kings so they will come back and spend more money...when in fact they are not learning anything because you are "babying" them?
And at what stage do you stop letting them do wider circuits?.....CPL????ATPL???
In a busy circuit they will stuff it up for everyone.At remote airports...if they call "tuning base" 5 mile out...then they could cost a Regional Airline hundreds of dollars in extra flying...just because you(and others like you) can not teach proper circuits!!!
And how will the poor student feel later on when he is failed on a test because his circuits were too wide!!!
If you are not going to teach it properly....don't teach at all!!!
And at what stage do you stop letting them do wider circuits?.....CPL????ATPL???
In a busy circuit they will stuff it up for everyone.At remote airports...if they call "tuning base" 5 mile out...then they could cost a Regional Airline hundreds of dollars in extra flying...just because you(and others like you) can not teach proper circuits!!!
And how will the poor student feel later on when he is failed on a test because his circuits were too wide!!!
If you are not going to teach it properly....don't teach at all!!!
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My dear friend Apache,
I do not feel guilty taking home my paycheck, since I take what I do very serious, although I am far below your esteemed standards, I have had nothing but succes teaching students. Spent 3000 hours teaching all levels and still teach on occasion, since I enjoy it.
Not all people learn equally fast, we all know that, some allowances has to be made. The question should be, will this person make a good, safe pilot in the end? Does the person enjoy it? If the answer to both questions is yes, then we should procede.
Some people do require more room in the circuit, most often in the beginning or when moving up to a faster, more complex aircraft. I would certainly think that prudent, however, if there are more people in the cct, then perhaps one could relocate to a less used field or assist by making the calls. This is of course a short term solution, however, one that should not be required for long, since the student will become adept and learn a normal cct size.
As a Flight Instructor, our job is to teach people how to fly safely and "properly. We are the eyes, ears and brains and as such must use judgement.
Someone spoke of Military training. Military training is very hard and the washout rate very high, is that what we want? If you do not solo after 10 hrs, you are out? I have flown with military aviators, some were great, some were not. I have flown with people that got "washed out", same thing there.
To sum this up, I think you have to make reasonable allowances in teaching, while still requiring skill and aspiring for perfection. We are here to teach people to become safe pilots, not to create an elitist fraternity. IMHO:-)
I do not feel guilty taking home my paycheck, since I take what I do very serious, although I am far below your esteemed standards, I have had nothing but succes teaching students. Spent 3000 hours teaching all levels and still teach on occasion, since I enjoy it.
Not all people learn equally fast, we all know that, some allowances has to be made. The question should be, will this person make a good, safe pilot in the end? Does the person enjoy it? If the answer to both questions is yes, then we should procede.
Some people do require more room in the circuit, most often in the beginning or when moving up to a faster, more complex aircraft. I would certainly think that prudent, however, if there are more people in the cct, then perhaps one could relocate to a less used field or assist by making the calls. This is of course a short term solution, however, one that should not be required for long, since the student will become adept and learn a normal cct size.
As a Flight Instructor, our job is to teach people how to fly safely and "properly. We are the eyes, ears and brains and as such must use judgement.
Someone spoke of Military training. Military training is very hard and the washout rate very high, is that what we want? If you do not solo after 10 hrs, you are out? I have flown with military aviators, some were great, some were not. I have flown with people that got "washed out", same thing there.
To sum this up, I think you have to make reasonable allowances in teaching, while still requiring skill and aspiring for perfection. We are here to teach people to become safe pilots, not to create an elitist fraternity. IMHO:-)
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A mix of sentiments here...if you allow the stude to fly erratic circuits (several reasonable ones followed by a wide "breather") how can you possibly say you're teaching him/her properly?
Wide circuits in whatever capacity demonstrate a willingness to accept errors and that isn't good enough. Now how you go about telling the perpetrator is up to you - in this case it sounds like a one to one chat backed up by a standards meeting. D8, I accept that in the commercial world, people who fly for fun want to enjoy it - but isn't that going to shaft everyone else in the cct? And the point you made about not going solo after 10 hours isn't strictly true either, but I won't go into that as it's beyond the scope of the topic.
Wide circuits in whatever capacity demonstrate a willingness to accept errors and that isn't good enough. Now how you go about telling the perpetrator is up to you - in this case it sounds like a one to one chat backed up by a standards meeting. D8, I accept that in the commercial world, people who fly for fun want to enjoy it - but isn't that going to shaft everyone else in the cct? And the point you made about not going solo after 10 hours isn't strictly true either, but I won't go into that as it's beyond the scope of the topic.
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Diesel8,
I also agree with apache. I was in a 250 knot machine only a couple of hours ago and we followed a Tomahawk and 152 around the circuit very successfully. If you had of run a piece of string to illustrate the aircraft's flight path then we all would have flown through it!
You seem to think that you can widen a circuit to give your students time to think! Crazy! Aircraft manufacturers were very mindful of the fact that students would need to move into bigger aircraft and they built aeroplanes with that type of progression in mind.
PA38 -> PA28 -> PA28R -> Saratoga etc...
C152 -> C172 -> C182 -> C182RG -> C210 etc
It's your responsibility to ensure that they aren't flying aeroplanes that they aren't really up to flying. Make them take baby steps until they find themselves in an aircraft that they are comfortable with.
Circumstances often dictate that you fly a Shonky circuit (such as wind on base? or a fellow flying a crazy wide or slow circuit) so it's not like they are never going to see a non-standard circuit - it's pretty obvious that they will see many of them during their training. It seems to me that YOU are one of those shonks that has the rest of us working hard to follow you. It's up to you to teach a consistent circuit that is nothing but perfect so they can recognise those patterns that are not.
It's all part of being a professional.
[This message has been edited by Swamp (edited 14 December 1999).]
I also agree with apache. I was in a 250 knot machine only a couple of hours ago and we followed a Tomahawk and 152 around the circuit very successfully. If you had of run a piece of string to illustrate the aircraft's flight path then we all would have flown through it!
You seem to think that you can widen a circuit to give your students time to think! Crazy! Aircraft manufacturers were very mindful of the fact that students would need to move into bigger aircraft and they built aeroplanes with that type of progression in mind.
PA38 -> PA28 -> PA28R -> Saratoga etc...
C152 -> C172 -> C182 -> C182RG -> C210 etc
It's your responsibility to ensure that they aren't flying aeroplanes that they aren't really up to flying. Make them take baby steps until they find themselves in an aircraft that they are comfortable with.
Circumstances often dictate that you fly a Shonky circuit (such as wind on base? or a fellow flying a crazy wide or slow circuit) so it's not like they are never going to see a non-standard circuit - it's pretty obvious that they will see many of them during their training. It seems to me that YOU are one of those shonks that has the rest of us working hard to follow you. It's up to you to teach a consistent circuit that is nothing but perfect so they can recognise those patterns that are not.
It's all part of being a professional.
[This message has been edited by Swamp (edited 14 December 1999).]
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This is one of my favorite topics. I'm a US CFI (please don't flog me!) Most US pilots fly HUGE circuits. I taught at a field where noise abatement dictated close in circuits. I found that when properly trained from the beginning all students are capable of flying a tight circuit. There is another skill I haven't seen mentioned: the ability to plan and keep a tight circuit even when following a c152 flying a 747 circuit. Teach them to slow down (not VMC) this gives them real world reasons for all that speed changing training we give them initially. If the one you are following goes really far out, suggest to the tower that you could turn base now and procede direct to the runway to "tighten up the pattern." This serves 3 purposes: 1) you get to land first 2) your student gets another lesson in flexibility 3) controlling the aircraft rafther than following a rote pattern of power reductions, flap settings etc.is good training. I'd also like to mention that I have 10 years as ATC also and I always appreciated pilots who volunteered to help out in this manner.
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eX-Chief CFI, X-ATC,AVN map maker,F
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eX-Chief CFI, X-ATC,AVN map maker,F
