final VFR approach for PPL training
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final VFR approach for PPL training
There two possibilities to instruct a VFR-approach during PPL training:
enter the final, reduce to flight idle, set flaps and try to get the field in a glide without power,
and
start shallow descent (300 - 500 ft/min.) when turning base (basicly, but depending on the pattern) and continue with power until touchdown.
or a mixture of them, say without power until first sole, than the second version.
I hope to start an discussion on this subject.
enter the final, reduce to flight idle, set flaps and try to get the field in a glide without power,
and
start shallow descent (300 - 500 ft/min.) when turning base (basicly, but depending on the pattern) and continue with power until touchdown.
or a mixture of them, say without power until first sole, than the second version.
I hope to start an discussion on this subject.
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Seems to me that BlueLine has it - set yourself reference points starting from the threshold at XX kts, work your way back up the approach path you want and set intermediate aim points on the way.
For example, we teach (in C152s) 60 kts over the threshold with full flap, so we need to set ourselves up before then.
The 1 mile final at 500' works for us, and we have a target speed for that point, which is 65kts with 20deg flap.
Working back along the approach gives 70kts, 10deg flap just before you turn base. To set this up so that you turn base at about 45deg to your aim point, you need to start slowing down at 30deg to your aim point.
Power settings are incidental to achieving these targets, so we use whatever we need to LOOKING OUTSIDE! We start with a reference power setting of about 1700 RPM, but the only instrument we look at is the ASI. Heights are visual, looking at the shape of the runway and how that changes is the more important part in the initial training. As we travel to different aerodromes in the cross countries, then we start introducing more instruments but initially we want to get them looking outside.
Safe flying
[This message has been edited by chicken6 (edited 25 March 2000).]
For example, we teach (in C152s) 60 kts over the threshold with full flap, so we need to set ourselves up before then.
The 1 mile final at 500' works for us, and we have a target speed for that point, which is 65kts with 20deg flap.
Working back along the approach gives 70kts, 10deg flap just before you turn base. To set this up so that you turn base at about 45deg to your aim point, you need to start slowing down at 30deg to your aim point.
Power settings are incidental to achieving these targets, so we use whatever we need to LOOKING OUTSIDE! We start with a reference power setting of about 1700 RPM, but the only instrument we look at is the ASI. Heights are visual, looking at the shape of the runway and how that changes is the more important part in the initial training. As we travel to different aerodromes in the cross countries, then we start introducing more instruments but initially we want to get them looking outside.
Safe flying
[This message has been edited by chicken6 (edited 25 March 2000).]
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So all agree to fly the final with power. I understand, that noboddy who answerd wants to make the final as a "glider" (with power idel, you control speed with elevator by changing pitch).
I have heard, but not confirmed, that in the USA the final with idle power is practiced and they didn't want you to touch the powerlever. All landings are simulated engine failures.
Are there some more information available?
I have heard, but not confirmed, that in the USA the final with idle power is practiced and they didn't want you to touch the powerlever. All landings are simulated engine failures.
Are there some more information available?
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Power off approaches are ok in summer ,But keep the engine warm.In some parts of the world if you do power off approaches you better slow down or you will shock cool the engine and you will never see tbo.Best to learn all the approaches,they are all fun. 
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Shock cooling is a myth according to some US experts on engine handling. Bob Hoover uses a standard Aero Commander for his high speed engine feathered loops and there is no shortage of owners to lend him their aircraft. Heavy rain cools the front cylinders dramatically, but one did not hear of DC3's and Catalinas falling out of the sky with shock cooled Pratt and Whitneys. In any case, at the low speeds used in Cessna 152's for gliding, shock cooling does not exist. It is my understanding that there has been no specific proof from measured tests that cylinder cracking has been caused specifically by shock cooling.
During the war years around 10,000 Tiger Moths were produced for training military pilots - and for aero clubs after the war. In those days the standard circuit always concluded in a full glide approach, where the throttle was set to idle on base leg (depending on wind) and not touched (unless undershooting, of course)
The RAAF certainly did not have Moths falling from the sky due cracked cylinders.
Re approach and landings in Cessna 152 and similar types. The approach speeds are similar to the Tiger and Chipmunk. Forget 1700rpm on base. That just complicates things. Hold level flight at 1000 agl on base until you judge you can get in without flaps, then close the throttle completely and glide using flap as required. Cross the fence at 54 knots (not 60 knots which gives excessive and unwanted float, let alone tendency to balloon). The Cessna POH states that normal landing approaches can be made with power-on or power-off. So obviously so called shock cooling is not an issue as far as the manufacturer is concerned. Glide approaches (if taught correctly) require only basic handling skills. Many present day schools teach glide approaches from a downwind position which requires cutting corners. This was never the original concept of glide approaches to land in circuit training. Certainly, students taught glide approaches as the norm in Tigers and Chippies, usually soloed in half the time that you see nowadays. Circuits were tighter because instructors insisted upon it. None of these huge money earning circuits taught as the normal procedure today. Much fewer bull-sh.t cockpit drills certainly helped too.
During the war years around 10,000 Tiger Moths were produced for training military pilots - and for aero clubs after the war. In those days the standard circuit always concluded in a full glide approach, where the throttle was set to idle on base leg (depending on wind) and not touched (unless undershooting, of course)
The RAAF certainly did not have Moths falling from the sky due cracked cylinders.
Re approach and landings in Cessna 152 and similar types. The approach speeds are similar to the Tiger and Chipmunk. Forget 1700rpm on base. That just complicates things. Hold level flight at 1000 agl on base until you judge you can get in without flaps, then close the throttle completely and glide using flap as required. Cross the fence at 54 knots (not 60 knots which gives excessive and unwanted float, let alone tendency to balloon). The Cessna POH states that normal landing approaches can be made with power-on or power-off. So obviously so called shock cooling is not an issue as far as the manufacturer is concerned. Glide approaches (if taught correctly) require only basic handling skills. Many present day schools teach glide approaches from a downwind position which requires cutting corners. This was never the original concept of glide approaches to land in circuit training. Certainly, students taught glide approaches as the norm in Tigers and Chippies, usually soloed in half the time that you see nowadays. Circuits were tighter because instructors insisted upon it. None of these huge money earning circuits taught as the normal procedure today. Much fewer bull-sh.t cockpit drills certainly helped too.
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Azzie
The RAF teach power for speed from the 500 ft point. Up to that point its attitude for speed then change over to power for speed. Commonly refered to as "Point and Power". I believe this technique was endorsed at a recent instructor Seminar by the former Chief Panel Examiner
The RAF teach power for speed from the 500 ft point. Up to that point its attitude for speed then change over to power for speed. Commonly refered to as "Point and Power". I believe this technique was endorsed at a recent instructor Seminar by the former Chief Panel Examiner
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Now that "power for speed" thing I find very strange. I had a BFR student who was trained by an instructor from the UK who embraced the same philosophy. On take off trundling along at 10 knots below Vy I asked for more speed and they replied "I've already got full power"...like duh, its not a car...lower the nose!!
In the old days (30 years ago) every approach for students in the USA was a glide approach. Not anymore. Pitch for speed and power for altitude. We teach power reduction abeam touch down point on downwind; initially hold the nose level to let airspeed bleed off to initial approach speed, then keep the nominated "stabilised approach" speed all the way to the threshold.
I have always found it hard to judge height from visual references until final. I teach lose about 200' on the latter part of downwind, about 300' on base and the last 500' on final.
The trick for final is to keep the airspeed constant and keep the runway threshold in a little "box" 1/3 of the way up the windscreen. I tell the students to imagine a little box about 15 cm x 10 cm drawn in magic marker on the windscreen. Pitch for airspeed and power to keep it in the box - works every time.
In the old days (30 years ago) every approach for students in the USA was a glide approach. Not anymore. Pitch for speed and power for altitude. We teach power reduction abeam touch down point on downwind; initially hold the nose level to let airspeed bleed off to initial approach speed, then keep the nominated "stabilised approach" speed all the way to the threshold.
I have always found it hard to judge height from visual references until final. I teach lose about 200' on the latter part of downwind, about 300' on base and the last 500' on final.
The trick for final is to keep the airspeed constant and keep the runway threshold in a little "box" 1/3 of the way up the windscreen. I tell the students to imagine a little box about 15 cm x 10 cm drawn in magic marker on the windscreen. Pitch for airspeed and power to keep it in the box - works every time.
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Oleo,
Power for speed is only practiced on a powered approach,not in the climb. Its purpose is to ensure a constant rate of descent from 500 feet to the landing point.
It is not unlike your box idea i.e dont make excessive changes of attitude, but why accept a box when you want to land at a point. If you fix the landing point on the windscreen, the only variable left is power. The basic assumption is that if you start from the right position, the changes required are minimal.
The practice of descending on the downwind leg is not taught to PPL students in the UK to prevent them from making a low and slow turn onto Final with the risk of a stall and spin. It is primarily designed to keep it safe for the infrequent flyer.
Power for speed is only practiced on a powered approach,not in the climb. Its purpose is to ensure a constant rate of descent from 500 feet to the landing point.
It is not unlike your box idea i.e dont make excessive changes of attitude, but why accept a box when you want to land at a point. If you fix the landing point on the windscreen, the only variable left is power. The basic assumption is that if you start from the right position, the changes required are minimal.
The practice of descending on the downwind leg is not taught to PPL students in the UK to prevent them from making a low and slow turn onto Final with the risk of a stall and spin. It is primarily designed to keep it safe for the infrequent flyer.
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The RAF flying scholarship teach "point and power" for the final approach. Once levelled ob final point the nose so that the threshold is about 1/3 up the windscreen, and adjust your attitude to keep it there. Whatever happens to be in that position is where the a/c will land. As you can't now use attitude to control airspeed, you use the power.
This method is taught, as when you move onto bigger/faster a/c, it is the only way that will work.
This method is taught, as when you move onto bigger/faster a/c, it is the only way that will work.
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Sceptics might like to note that Capt Kember, ex-CAA Chief Examiner, advised the recent ETA instructor seminar that 'Point and Power' allowed the RAF to shave a couple of hours off the average time to solo as it was so easy for students to assimilate. I consider that the main advantage with 'P&P' is that deviation from a required IAS value is easily deduced from an ASI, whereas using the 'traditional' method you have to wait for a glidepath error to become apparent before you can correct it - which most students find difficult to assess.
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Glad to see some other folks are beginning to see it - I've been teaching it for nearly 30 years:
When power is available and variable (the throttle is useable) - Power controls speed and pitch controls altitude (ie: vertical speed)
When power is fixed (by choice or by chance) - Pitch controls airspeed and God controls altitude.
...and above all,
FLY SAFE!
WileyP
When power is available and variable (the throttle is useable) - Power controls speed and pitch controls altitude (ie: vertical speed)
When power is fixed (by choice or by chance) - Pitch controls airspeed and God controls altitude.
...and above all,
FLY SAFE!
WileyP
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On the Tucano (where we fly oval ccts) there are 2 techniques adopted.
1. We choose a 300'pt 1nm on the extended centre line.
2. Once abeam the 300'pt on the d/wind leg we fly a descending turn with the aim to be rolling out on r/w hdg at 300', set up nicely for a 3 deg glidepath. For this turn we use power to ctrl the ROD and vary the attitude to maintain a constant airspeed.
3. Once aligned with the r/w we then use attitude to ctrl the flightpath and power to ctrl airspeed (ie slowly reducing to Vth)
1. We choose a 300'pt 1nm on the extended centre line.
2. Once abeam the 300'pt on the d/wind leg we fly a descending turn with the aim to be rolling out on r/w hdg at 300', set up nicely for a 3 deg glidepath. For this turn we use power to ctrl the ROD and vary the attitude to maintain a constant airspeed.
3. Once aligned with the r/w we then use attitude to ctrl the flightpath and power to ctrl airspeed (ie slowly reducing to Vth)
