Running a flying school
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South East
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Running a flying school
Hi,
Didn't really know where to ask this - thought this forum would be most appropriate.
Im just wondering about what it would take to start up a small flying school offering PPL/NPPL/Night/IMC - not commercial. I am not in a position to do this at the moment nor have I the experience but I am interested in learning more about the sort of startup costs etc.
How many aircraft do you think would be necessary to make the school viable? 2,3,4? Probably PA28's/172's. Diesel??
If you divide up the costs per hour what sort of profit would you be looking at, bearing in mind that the instructors would be myself and and a friend who I would be in partnership with. Maybe 1 salaried member of staff to manage the reception etc.
I guess Im just wondering if this is possible at all or not worth it financially - what do you think??
Cheers
SS.
Didn't really know where to ask this - thought this forum would be most appropriate.
Im just wondering about what it would take to start up a small flying school offering PPL/NPPL/Night/IMC - not commercial. I am not in a position to do this at the moment nor have I the experience but I am interested in learning more about the sort of startup costs etc.
How many aircraft do you think would be necessary to make the school viable? 2,3,4? Probably PA28's/172's. Diesel??
If you divide up the costs per hour what sort of profit would you be looking at, bearing in mind that the instructors would be myself and and a friend who I would be in partnership with. Maybe 1 salaried member of staff to manage the reception etc.
I guess Im just wondering if this is possible at all or not worth it financially - what do you think??
Cheers
SS.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London, UK
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If my experience is anything to go by you don't need to be particularly large or lavish to make a pretty good go of it.
I fly out of High Cross just north of Ware in Herts - the school is PSF, run by Alan Adams (who won't, I hope, mind me mentioning him here as publicity is publicity is publicity, I suppose!) out of what is essentially a farm strip. Portacabin office/lounge area, one PA38, and thassit. Two instructors.
Depending on whether it's winter hours or summer, at most he'll get 5 lessons (in two hour slots) a day.
The difficulty, I think, is structuring your prices appropriately - on the one hand if you run a smaller operation then prospective students will expect your prices to be lower than somewhere like, say, Cabair, and your running costs will in any case generally be lower. But on the other hand you can't be that much cheaper, because you still have to maintain and certify the a/c each year, take on fuel, ensure your ratings are renewed, pay the rent and all the rest of it. And your maintenance costs are likely to be more because you'll have to sub-contract the bulk of your maintenance.
Depends how much money you want to make as well as on what sort of image you think you need. The reason I use PSF is because I prefer the rather more relaxed, instructing-for-the-sake-of-instructing type approach than the I'd-rather-be-an-airline-pilot type. But others will prefer having more a/c, be reassured by instructors with nice uniforms and like the idea of operating from a nice busy airfield like Elstree.
Sorry, I'm rambling, the only point I wanted to make was that you don't need a fleet of a/c and a receptionist.
LB.
I fly out of High Cross just north of Ware in Herts - the school is PSF, run by Alan Adams (who won't, I hope, mind me mentioning him here as publicity is publicity is publicity, I suppose!) out of what is essentially a farm strip. Portacabin office/lounge area, one PA38, and thassit. Two instructors.
Depending on whether it's winter hours or summer, at most he'll get 5 lessons (in two hour slots) a day.
The difficulty, I think, is structuring your prices appropriately - on the one hand if you run a smaller operation then prospective students will expect your prices to be lower than somewhere like, say, Cabair, and your running costs will in any case generally be lower. But on the other hand you can't be that much cheaper, because you still have to maintain and certify the a/c each year, take on fuel, ensure your ratings are renewed, pay the rent and all the rest of it. And your maintenance costs are likely to be more because you'll have to sub-contract the bulk of your maintenance.
Depends how much money you want to make as well as on what sort of image you think you need. The reason I use PSF is because I prefer the rather more relaxed, instructing-for-the-sake-of-instructing type approach than the I'd-rather-be-an-airline-pilot type. But others will prefer having more a/c, be reassured by instructors with nice uniforms and like the idea of operating from a nice busy airfield like Elstree.
Sorry, I'm rambling, the only point I wanted to make was that you don't need a fleet of a/c and a receptionist.
LB.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South East
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for your reply LB,
Can you run a flying school from a farm strip?? I thought it had to be licenced or something? Do you have to go and do a touch and go at another airfield before you start the lessons?
So in theory, you can buy some suitable land, and simply startup a flying school from it? Surely you need some kind of approval from the CAA to run a strip that is being used for flight instruction?
Thanks
SS
Can you run a flying school from a farm strip?? I thought it had to be licenced or something? Do you have to go and do a touch and go at another airfield before you start the lessons?
So in theory, you can buy some suitable land, and simply startup a flying school from it? Surely you need some kind of approval from the CAA to run a strip that is being used for flight instruction?
Thanks
SS
Last edited by Skyseeker; 4th Aug 2004 at 16:36.
Skyseeker, for JAR-FCL PPL SEP Class Rating training in the UK, a licensed or Government aerodrome is required. This is not the case for Microlight or SLMG NPPL training - but it is also the case for NPPL SSEA training.
It might be worth your while reading http://www.caa.co.uk/publications/pu...ls.asp?id=1203 as Standards Document 11 gives you all the details needed for applying to become a Registered Facility.
No, you cannot simply buy up a piece of land and start operating from it for ab-initio PPL SEP training. 'High Cross' (Benington?) would appear to be neither government nor licensed......??
It might be worth your while reading http://www.caa.co.uk/publications/pu...ls.asp?id=1203 as Standards Document 11 gives you all the details needed for applying to become a Registered Facility.
No, you cannot simply buy up a piece of land and start operating from it for ab-initio PPL SEP training. 'High Cross' (Benington?) would appear to be neither government nor licensed......??
Last edited by BEagle; 4th Aug 2004 at 17:44.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South East
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Beagle, Ill have a read of that link.
I too was a bit confused about the instructing from High Cross.
Cheers
SS
I too was a bit confused about the instructing from High Cross.
Cheers
SS
Last edited by Skyseeker; 4th Aug 2004 at 18:37.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: England
Posts: 908
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At Kemble to comply with flying out of a licensed before being so ourselves we touch and go'd at GLos thus complying with flying out of a licensed etc
If i'm not wrong Enstone teach for the PPL and they are not licensed.
We always found it crazy that Kemble which has a 1st class fire service/runways/tower was not licensed and yet when flying into the likes of Shobdon it was hit and miss if the radio would even be answered let alone a line of fire trucks steaming onto the runway. Its all a bit hazy and needs sorting out to encourage more GA in my view.
Thats it, Tonker
If i'm not wrong Enstone teach for the PPL and they are not licensed.
We always found it crazy that Kemble which has a 1st class fire service/runways/tower was not licensed and yet when flying into the likes of Shobdon it was hit and miss if the radio would even be answered let alone a line of fire trucks steaming onto the runway. Its all a bit hazy and needs sorting out to encourage more GA in my view.
Thats it, Tonker
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South East
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lawyerboy,
Thanks that makes things a bit clearer. So he is operating an ab initio PPL school from High Cross strip? Where does he get customers from because the strip isn't on the topographical map and there doesn't seem to be any Website or web presence? How does he attract people to learn with him? Word of mouth?
Im just interested..!!
Cheers
SS
BTW the PA38 he uses isn't G-BJUS is it? Think I may have seen it around Stapleford!
Thanks that makes things a bit clearer. So he is operating an ab initio PPL school from High Cross strip? Where does he get customers from because the strip isn't on the topographical map and there doesn't seem to be any Website or web presence? How does he attract people to learn with him? Word of mouth?
Im just interested..!!
Cheers
SS
BTW the PA38 he uses isn't G-BJUS is it? Think I may have seen it around Stapleford!
Last edited by Skyseeker; 6th Aug 2004 at 17:53.
The 'start and stop' at another aerodrome concept seems to be increasingly commonplace.
Many in the industry are in favour of less stringent regulations for aerodrome standards at places used for flight training; we are currently awaiting the results of a CAA internal discussion process.
The concept most seem to support is that the Training Provider will indicate what the proposed aerodrome standard (RW length, fire and rescue availability, etc) is - and what the intended training offered will consist of. You don't need a 10 000 ft RW for SEP Class Rating training, nor would it be appropriate to operate a fleet of a dozen aircraft from a short wet patch of mud miles from the nearest fire and rescue. So some 'assessment' process will say YES or NO.....
Too simple?
Many in the industry are in favour of less stringent regulations for aerodrome standards at places used for flight training; we are currently awaiting the results of a CAA internal discussion process.
The concept most seem to support is that the Training Provider will indicate what the proposed aerodrome standard (RW length, fire and rescue availability, etc) is - and what the intended training offered will consist of. You don't need a 10 000 ft RW for SEP Class Rating training, nor would it be appropriate to operate a fleet of a dozen aircraft from a short wet patch of mud miles from the nearest fire and rescue. So some 'assessment' process will say YES or NO.....
Too simple?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South East
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hang on a minute - You say the school is called PSF - what does it stand for? Maybe a total coincidence - but: Panshanger School of Flying? Confused now... Why would it be called that not being based at Panshanger?
SS
SS
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 1,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Going back to the original thread, first thing to do is to write down every expense you can think of, for example
aircraft loan repayment ( buy over 5 years, your students would have bought you a nice aeroplane to retire on!), maintenance (50hr and annual, C of a), engine fund ( remember if busy 1000hr per a/c/yr, engine will be burnt out after 2 yrs), insurance(last time think it was 4% value a/c, plus £100 per seat), rent, rates, parking, block landings, fuel, wages with tax!( your self and office staff ), 3rd party liability insurance, advertising, office equipment. don't forget VAT!
Now have to decide how many aircraft, 1, 2 or 3.
Don't believe anybody could afford to buy anything fancy, stick with basic Cessna/Pipers. easy to fix if pranged.
How many hours do you think you are going to do per year?
Would 2 a/c 1000hr year make a profit?
Income from groundschool, charge for it, they do in USA, so why don't we do it here. I was always embarrased to, because of the already high cost of flying. Who looses out?
Ground exams, r/t courses, flight test if examiner.
what ifs?
Engine blows up, a/c damage off line, more bad weather, price of fuel goes through roof.
Like any flight it requires careful pre flight planning, the results are not only monetary, but thats what keeps the dream airborne.
aircraft loan repayment ( buy over 5 years, your students would have bought you a nice aeroplane to retire on!), maintenance (50hr and annual, C of a), engine fund ( remember if busy 1000hr per a/c/yr, engine will be burnt out after 2 yrs), insurance(last time think it was 4% value a/c, plus £100 per seat), rent, rates, parking, block landings, fuel, wages with tax!( your self and office staff ), 3rd party liability insurance, advertising, office equipment. don't forget VAT!
Now have to decide how many aircraft, 1, 2 or 3.
Don't believe anybody could afford to buy anything fancy, stick with basic Cessna/Pipers. easy to fix if pranged.
How many hours do you think you are going to do per year?
Would 2 a/c 1000hr year make a profit?
Income from groundschool, charge for it, they do in USA, so why don't we do it here. I was always embarrased to, because of the already high cost of flying. Who looses out?
Ground exams, r/t courses, flight test if examiner.
what ifs?
Engine blows up, a/c damage off line, more bad weather, price of fuel goes through roof.
Like any flight it requires careful pre flight planning, the results are not only monetary, but thats what keeps the dream airborne.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London, UK
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Skyseeker -
Yes, BJUS (probably me, especially if you see it bounce down the tarmac a few times on landing) and yes, used to be Panshanger School of Flying. Alan used to be fairly heavily involved in Panshanger (which is still running, I think?) and then a few years back moved a little to the East to set up PSF at High Cross.
I found it through the Yellow Pages, but that was years ago. Don't think Alan's done much advertising lately - mostly word of mouth.
BigEndBob -
You can make a profit from only one or two a/c, but you're quite right - you need to be pretty careful about it. Cost of fuel goes up, then prices have to follow; price of lessons has to have a buffer to cope with exploding engines and bad weather. Yes, charge for groundschool. Why not? If an instructor is spending an hour on the ground teaching you how a wing works he's not in the air teaching someone how to climb, so he's not earning the school a full hour's flying lesson. You may not be able to charge as much (after all, no fuel used, no wear and tear on the a/c) but you can charge an element for the lost income. Even £20 for the hour, it's not that bad a deal for the student.
BEagle -
Have to confess, I've always wondered why it is that the aerodrome needs to be licensed. As an aside, if you learn how to get a PA38 into and out of a small farm strip it's likely to stand you in far better stead than if all your training consists of operating out of that 10,000 footer made of tarmac - how often is there a topic here on Pprune about 'I've always flown out of Luton and now I'm worried about flying into Sywell'? If the school itself is regulated (the instructors licensed, the examiners rated, the school subject to regular inspections) then the state and adequacy of the aerodrome will form part of that process anyway, will it not?
LB.
Yes, BJUS (probably me, especially if you see it bounce down the tarmac a few times on landing) and yes, used to be Panshanger School of Flying. Alan used to be fairly heavily involved in Panshanger (which is still running, I think?) and then a few years back moved a little to the East to set up PSF at High Cross.
I found it through the Yellow Pages, but that was years ago. Don't think Alan's done much advertising lately - mostly word of mouth.
BigEndBob -
You can make a profit from only one or two a/c, but you're quite right - you need to be pretty careful about it. Cost of fuel goes up, then prices have to follow; price of lessons has to have a buffer to cope with exploding engines and bad weather. Yes, charge for groundschool. Why not? If an instructor is spending an hour on the ground teaching you how a wing works he's not in the air teaching someone how to climb, so he's not earning the school a full hour's flying lesson. You may not be able to charge as much (after all, no fuel used, no wear and tear on the a/c) but you can charge an element for the lost income. Even £20 for the hour, it's not that bad a deal for the student.
BEagle -
Have to confess, I've always wondered why it is that the aerodrome needs to be licensed. As an aside, if you learn how to get a PA38 into and out of a small farm strip it's likely to stand you in far better stead than if all your training consists of operating out of that 10,000 footer made of tarmac - how often is there a topic here on Pprune about 'I've always flown out of Luton and now I'm worried about flying into Sywell'? If the school itself is regulated (the instructors licensed, the examiners rated, the school subject to regular inspections) then the state and adequacy of the aerodrome will form part of that process anyway, will it not?
LB.
Yes, it will..................because that's what happens in Oz. As far as I can find the safety of learning to fly in the UK is no better than Oz - so exactly what benefit is achieved by the UK's more onerous rules?
