jobs go at OATS
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I didnt realise there were any VFR instructors left at Oxford. I thought they retrained all of them to do the IFR phase. (or are the job cuts referring to the modular instructors?)
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It doesn't matter how good 'they' are or were because insufficient revenue = unlikely to survive, even with mugs like mattince.. .Does OATS, like SFT, now = history?. .P.S. where is 'Oxford Tyler'?
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Oxford Blue and Magcheck.
Just to set the record straight(er).
1. OATS declined to re-employ an ex BA 747 Capt, allegedly because he had been an effective union rep for the instructors,
2. The 'new' MD. He is not a new hand at all. Three years ago he was selected to run the flying school by Mick Daw, the previous CEO. I believe his previous experience was running a bar in the caribean, but that may just be crew room gossip. When he was last at Oxford, when asked by TLT what his greatest achievement there was, he replied "sacking Andy ****". At the time 'Tony had been nicknamed ILS by groundschool, a name that aquired commen currency with the flying instructors. (ILS doesn't stand for a landing aid).
3. All the flying instructors have been offered a new pay package, on a take it or leave it basis.
4. On news of his return, staff morale slumped to its present position.
5. The instructors are still good.
Just to set the record straight(er).
1. OATS declined to re-employ an ex BA 747 Capt, allegedly because he had been an effective union rep for the instructors,
2. The 'new' MD. He is not a new hand at all. Three years ago he was selected to run the flying school by Mick Daw, the previous CEO. I believe his previous experience was running a bar in the caribean, but that may just be crew room gossip. When he was last at Oxford, when asked by TLT what his greatest achievement there was, he replied "sacking Andy ****". At the time 'Tony had been nicknamed ILS by groundschool, a name that aquired commen currency with the flying instructors. (ILS doesn't stand for a landing aid).
3. All the flying instructors have been offered a new pay package, on a take it or leave it basis.
4. On news of his return, staff morale slumped to its present position.
5. The instructors are still good.
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The relevance (if not the interest) of this thread to Wannabes is getting weaker with each post. As it appears to revolve entirely around issues regarding instructors, that is the forum on which I shall place it. Feel free to continue your debate there.
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Well, I work there and my way of viewing it doesn't tally with yours. To take your 5 points in order:
1/ This instructor was before my time but, the way I hear it, all he did was to cause the management hassle by his aggressive confrontation as a union rep. Not only did he have no tact, he was bloody rude. His approach actually achieved damn-all in terms of improvements in terms and conditions for the instructors.
2/ No-one ever said Anthony was new to Oxford - just new in the post as MD. His previous experience includes being Director of Training at Oxford and being a line pilot for bmi. He's had other jobs as well - it's amazing what a difference it makes to the story when you're highly selective in what you tell.
3/ Absolutely right. The place needed sharpening up.
4/ Not true.
5/ True.
And, no, I'm not management - I'm a rank-and-file instructor.
It's up to the readership of this thread to decide which version they prefer.
[ 23 February 2002: Message edited by: oxford blue ]</p>
1/ This instructor was before my time but, the way I hear it, all he did was to cause the management hassle by his aggressive confrontation as a union rep. Not only did he have no tact, he was bloody rude. His approach actually achieved damn-all in terms of improvements in terms and conditions for the instructors.
2/ No-one ever said Anthony was new to Oxford - just new in the post as MD. His previous experience includes being Director of Training at Oxford and being a line pilot for bmi. He's had other jobs as well - it's amazing what a difference it makes to the story when you're highly selective in what you tell.
3/ Absolutely right. The place needed sharpening up.
4/ Not true.
5/ True.
And, no, I'm not management - I'm a rank-and-file instructor.
It's up to the readership of this thread to decide which version they prefer.
[ 23 February 2002: Message edited by: oxford blue ]</p>
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Oxford.
I notice that you now aknowledge about the ex BA 747 Capt. In your earlier contribution you denied it! How about your comment about not lying to us? Consistency please.
I agree with you, the terms and conditions of instructing at Oxford have gone downhill ever since the demise of CAP509. It also now makes a loss. Most of the instructors are the same, so the quality of the product has largely remained at the top.
I never heard anyone say that T was rude. To me, and those who know him he is a courteous and effective gentleman. I fear your source of information is not without partiality.
Anyones ability to cope with individuals, who are willing to sacrifice anything to the profit factor, is always going to be limited. I understood that TP was a very effective PFIA chairman who achieved a lot, but they made him CFI. Things have changed with the recent (97+)management,l ast week for example, was it really appropriate for an instructor to be bolloked for declining to fly an early student in 28kt gusts?
Should instructors be expected to work 16+ hour days?
I guess this is what you mean by "sharpening up".
I noticed during the recent gales, that none of the instructors went home early. Early departures in bad weather (as encouraged by Jeremy)has always been Oxford policy, with the corrolary that you work longer hours sometimes to make up for it. It is very sad that the decline in management has created a regime of fear amongst the staff.
Redunduncies are inevitable, but you could at least be human about it. In a recent chat with a dept head at BA, it was obvious that he was genuinly upset at the prospect of making some of his staff redundent. Being nicer (firmness has it's place, of course) to staff has ALWAYS produced better results than petty bullying. Its part of leadership, as taught all over the world, but not as practiced at Oxford. Sadly, with the loss of Bruce, Vic and the rest, Oxford is left mostly with managers, not leaders. Maybe thats why its going downhill fast.
Keep digging the tunnel guys. Someday your airline will come.
[ 26 February 2002: Message edited by: EddyCurrents ]</p>
I notice that you now aknowledge about the ex BA 747 Capt. In your earlier contribution you denied it! How about your comment about not lying to us? Consistency please.
I agree with you, the terms and conditions of instructing at Oxford have gone downhill ever since the demise of CAP509. It also now makes a loss. Most of the instructors are the same, so the quality of the product has largely remained at the top.
I never heard anyone say that T was rude. To me, and those who know him he is a courteous and effective gentleman. I fear your source of information is not without partiality.
Anyones ability to cope with individuals, who are willing to sacrifice anything to the profit factor, is always going to be limited. I understood that TP was a very effective PFIA chairman who achieved a lot, but they made him CFI. Things have changed with the recent (97+)management,l ast week for example, was it really appropriate for an instructor to be bolloked for declining to fly an early student in 28kt gusts?
Should instructors be expected to work 16+ hour days?
I guess this is what you mean by "sharpening up".
I noticed during the recent gales, that none of the instructors went home early. Early departures in bad weather (as encouraged by Jeremy)has always been Oxford policy, with the corrolary that you work longer hours sometimes to make up for it. It is very sad that the decline in management has created a regime of fear amongst the staff.
Redunduncies are inevitable, but you could at least be human about it. In a recent chat with a dept head at BA, it was obvious that he was genuinly upset at the prospect of making some of his staff redundent. Being nicer (firmness has it's place, of course) to staff has ALWAYS produced better results than petty bullying. Its part of leadership, as taught all over the world, but not as practiced at Oxford. Sadly, with the loss of Bruce, Vic and the rest, Oxford is left mostly with managers, not leaders. Maybe thats why its going downhill fast.
Keep digging the tunnel guys. Someday your airline will come.
[ 26 February 2002: Message edited by: EddyCurrents ]</p>
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I wasn't going to bother to continue with this thread because, as Scroggs said, this debate is becoming increasingly sterile with each additional contribution. But you have attacked my integrity, so I will. Your technique is called playing the man, not the ball.
We were talking in the context of the present round of extremely unfortunate redundancies - ie, some AFIs have been made redundant recently. Captain Moth then made some fatuous remark about "getting rids of ex-747 captains and keeping on magnet movers". I was replying to that point. No 747 captains have been made redundant. It is true that a former 747 captain did not have his contract renewed (which is not at all the same thing) THREE YEARS ago. It is not surprising that I failed to see that link. This is supposed to be a rumours and news website, not one concerned with dragging up ancient history. There is no way that I intended to deceive or be inconsistent.
It tends to suggest to me that you and Captain Moth must have a fairly weak argument if you need to refer to events of 3 years ago to make your points.
Apart from that, I am not going to get dragged into the weeds of a very boring argument. I have some more general points to make.
Here is a little story. An RAF Staion Commander was carrying out interviews with new arrivals one morning. The first chap came in. "What was your previous station like?" the CO asked.
"Terrible!" said the new arrival. "No one pulled together, there was a lot of back-biting, and I found it a bit unfriendly."
"Well, I'm sorry to hear that" said the CO. "I'm afraid you'll find it's a bit like that here, too."
The next chap came in. He looked an enthusiastic sort of guy, and had a spring in his step. "How was your last station?" asked the CO in the course of the interview.
"Great!" said the new arrival. "Good morale. Good friends. Everybody pulled together. We were a team. We got things done."
"Good" said the CO. "It's just like that here."
. .See the point? Life is what you make it. There will always be people who whinge about management in any organisation and there wil always be people who get on with it and do the job. It's not surprising that when management have choices to make about who goes and who stays they chose to keep on the ones who give best value to the company. I would, too, in their position.
You appear to have a lot on inside knowledge about Oxford. My guess in that you either work there or are a disgruntled former employee. If the first, it is an act of gross disloyalty to slag off your employer on a public website. if the second, can't you get rid of your emotional baggage? It's all over. It's a job you used to have once. Get on with what you're doing now and make a succes of it.
Most of the instructors at Oxford have been there for years. They like it there. Staff turnover is low. Again, I wonder why?
A final point. Look at Oxford's client list. In the last 2 years, ie, post introduction of JAA, the following organisations have sponsored cadets through Oxford:
BA. .The Royal Air force (incredible - but true!). .bmi. .Aer Lingus. .SAS. .Finnair. .Greenland Air. .Ghana Air. .Khalifa Airways. .Air Algerie. .Algerian Air Force. .Kuwait Police. .Bahrain Defence force. .Greek Police. .Algerian Police. .Oman Royal Flight
There may be others, but this is all I can think of.
Oxford must be doing SOMETHING right!
Again, I leave it to the readers of this site to make their own minds up. I do not intend to contribute further to this thread.
We were talking in the context of the present round of extremely unfortunate redundancies - ie, some AFIs have been made redundant recently. Captain Moth then made some fatuous remark about "getting rids of ex-747 captains and keeping on magnet movers". I was replying to that point. No 747 captains have been made redundant. It is true that a former 747 captain did not have his contract renewed (which is not at all the same thing) THREE YEARS ago. It is not surprising that I failed to see that link. This is supposed to be a rumours and news website, not one concerned with dragging up ancient history. There is no way that I intended to deceive or be inconsistent.
It tends to suggest to me that you and Captain Moth must have a fairly weak argument if you need to refer to events of 3 years ago to make your points.
Apart from that, I am not going to get dragged into the weeds of a very boring argument. I have some more general points to make.
Here is a little story. An RAF Staion Commander was carrying out interviews with new arrivals one morning. The first chap came in. "What was your previous station like?" the CO asked.
"Terrible!" said the new arrival. "No one pulled together, there was a lot of back-biting, and I found it a bit unfriendly."
"Well, I'm sorry to hear that" said the CO. "I'm afraid you'll find it's a bit like that here, too."
The next chap came in. He looked an enthusiastic sort of guy, and had a spring in his step. "How was your last station?" asked the CO in the course of the interview.
"Great!" said the new arrival. "Good morale. Good friends. Everybody pulled together. We were a team. We got things done."
"Good" said the CO. "It's just like that here."
. .See the point? Life is what you make it. There will always be people who whinge about management in any organisation and there wil always be people who get on with it and do the job. It's not surprising that when management have choices to make about who goes and who stays they chose to keep on the ones who give best value to the company. I would, too, in their position.
You appear to have a lot on inside knowledge about Oxford. My guess in that you either work there or are a disgruntled former employee. If the first, it is an act of gross disloyalty to slag off your employer on a public website. if the second, can't you get rid of your emotional baggage? It's all over. It's a job you used to have once. Get on with what you're doing now and make a succes of it.
Most of the instructors at Oxford have been there for years. They like it there. Staff turnover is low. Again, I wonder why?
A final point. Look at Oxford's client list. In the last 2 years, ie, post introduction of JAA, the following organisations have sponsored cadets through Oxford:
BA. .The Royal Air force (incredible - but true!). .bmi. .Aer Lingus. .SAS. .Finnair. .Greenland Air. .Ghana Air. .Khalifa Airways. .Air Algerie. .Algerian Air Force. .Kuwait Police. .Bahrain Defence force. .Greek Police. .Algerian Police. .Oman Royal Flight
There may be others, but this is all I can think of.
Oxford must be doing SOMETHING right!
Again, I leave it to the readers of this site to make their own minds up. I do not intend to contribute further to this thread.
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Um folks...correct me please...
Please tell me that it is not Anthony Petteford who is the new CEO of Oxford (I think that was his name...).
If it is I believe Oxford's future would be in grave doubt - Myself & other students of 2 years ago had tanglings with this 'oik' who has little respect for peoples money and quality of service (not talking about instructors here - which were always 110% top notch - Esp Mark Bills & Vince Robertson - a pity to see Vince leave Oxford I think but there you go). What I am talking about is his bad mishandling of customer (us) relations regarding availability and more importantly serviceability of aircraft...
Please please please tell me it is not him...
Please tell me that it is not Anthony Petteford who is the new CEO of Oxford (I think that was his name...).
If it is I believe Oxford's future would be in grave doubt - Myself & other students of 2 years ago had tanglings with this 'oik' who has little respect for peoples money and quality of service (not talking about instructors here - which were always 110% top notch - Esp Mark Bills & Vince Robertson - a pity to see Vince leave Oxford I think but there you go). What I am talking about is his bad mishandling of customer (us) relations regarding availability and more importantly serviceability of aircraft...
Please please please tell me it is not him...
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Very sorry to confirm it is 'tony Petteford. It seems my views are not unique. Vince leaving is a disaster for the place. "He really knew where his towell was".
The object of recent management/owners at Oxford has been to artificially inflate the value of the company and then to sell it off at a profit. It has never been to keep it running long term. Nothing wrong with this of course, the owners are gambling their money and expect a return. Having bought the place at an inflated and unreal price, the only way they can get a return is to sell it at greater value to someone else. Like the South Sea Bubble however, it cannot go on forever. Marketing on "the Oxford name" and a coat of paint, as Mick Daw initiated in 98/99, can only go so far. In a shrinking market, costs have to be cut, so jobs and pay will go down. Again nothing wrong with this, its the market economy.
The sad part is when people put forward the management view that all is rosy in the garden. Just as elsewhere in any industry, the protestations increase proprtionately to the trouble the company is in. Oxford is not going down the tubes just yet, and hopefully it won't. It does have major problems such as staff/student morale, a situation exacerbated by the CEO's return. On the other hand, the airspace will become less crowded, aircraft availability might go up (but you can buy Oxford aircraft now), and flight safety will increase. The quality of the instructors will remain as high as ever because they have nowhere else to go, or are tied to houses/children in school etc. Most of the instructors (post CAP509)I know are still applying for jobs, and have been ever since they arrived. At the moment everyone in the crew room is watching his/her back. A less Stalinist style of management would alleviate this. Openness and honesty always wins - its a function of leadership. Trying to tell the staff that the latest pay scheme is an "improvement" and is intended to increase their total pay by improving productivity doesn't wash.
Flying at CSE has always been fun, its the bit on the ground that tarnishs the reputation.
The object of recent management/owners at Oxford has been to artificially inflate the value of the company and then to sell it off at a profit. It has never been to keep it running long term. Nothing wrong with this of course, the owners are gambling their money and expect a return. Having bought the place at an inflated and unreal price, the only way they can get a return is to sell it at greater value to someone else. Like the South Sea Bubble however, it cannot go on forever. Marketing on "the Oxford name" and a coat of paint, as Mick Daw initiated in 98/99, can only go so far. In a shrinking market, costs have to be cut, so jobs and pay will go down. Again nothing wrong with this, its the market economy.
The sad part is when people put forward the management view that all is rosy in the garden. Just as elsewhere in any industry, the protestations increase proprtionately to the trouble the company is in. Oxford is not going down the tubes just yet, and hopefully it won't. It does have major problems such as staff/student morale, a situation exacerbated by the CEO's return. On the other hand, the airspace will become less crowded, aircraft availability might go up (but you can buy Oxford aircraft now), and flight safety will increase. The quality of the instructors will remain as high as ever because they have nowhere else to go, or are tied to houses/children in school etc. Most of the instructors (post CAP509)I know are still applying for jobs, and have been ever since they arrived. At the moment everyone in the crew room is watching his/her back. A less Stalinist style of management would alleviate this. Openness and honesty always wins - its a function of leadership. Trying to tell the staff that the latest pay scheme is an "improvement" and is intended to increase their total pay by improving productivity doesn't wash.
Flying at CSE has always been fun, its the bit on the ground that tarnishs the reputation.
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ways to get rid of magnets (for OATS Instructors.). .. .1. Hit them repeatedly with a hammer. (recommended). .. .2. Put a high voltage A.C. current through them.. .. .3. Heat them up in a furnace.. .. .Instructors will know what I am talking about! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />
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Here's a question for OATS - Why was it that when I phoned the CAA yesterday, they knew nothing about your, much trumpeted, approval for modular CPL training in the States? Could it be that you are being 'economical with the truth'? Surely not!
Have they really ALL been given their Notice!?!?. .. .Surely not!. .. .WWW
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WWW - yes more or less everyone has been told their job is at risk, effectively the same thing.. .Comment on customer care and focus - if a company wants to succeed in that arena they should first look to how they treat their staff who are supposed to carry out this objective. Threats of imminent redundancy are hardly the the positive scenario one needs to engender to carry this objective!. .Or am I missing somthing? In the typical 'In Search of Excellence' profile it is those companies who have a very highly developed 'employee recognition for excellence and client focus' who are the market leaders!
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Titch:. .. .[rant mode on]. .. .I paid 25000 UKP to OATS for a multi-IR. As one of 14 people trying to fly 3 twin a/c, 2 of which had their CAA approval withdrawn, one of which became out of service due to needing a new engine (which oxford had but then sold on - so when needed wasnt available), and 1 of the remaining two had an on/off throttle (due badly worn cable). etc etc. I dont care whether you flew with the guy and 'he is a jolly good chap'. As a CUSTOMER he had an appauling attitude - particularly his attitude to our 'nice' letter of complaint (signed by I think 14-21 students at the time - so lets face it this is NOT a small issue Im talking about here - but students worth revenue of 0.5million UKP to OATS - but it would appear that didnt matter to him). So unless you had 25000UKP riding on him I suggest you stop telling everyone what a good cheese he is - Because he didnt give a crap about us modular students when we were there - either that or ha cant manage his way out of a paper bag - how else do you explain the RIDICULOUS serviceability and utilisation of aircraft...??? Hmm...very customer focused.. .. .I have nothing against the guy personally. Dont know him personally. But professionally AFAI am concerned he is a waste of space who seriously jepordised completing my IR in the timescales advertised by Oxford due to his inability to manage resources....and I was one of the lucky ones who completed on time...and that was more testament to the staff of GOATS in managing a bad situation than any reflection on the new god of oxford.. .. .[rant mode off]. .. .Sorry about that folks. Can I please take this oppurtunity to say that my thoughts are with the OATS instructors under fire. Chin up chaps(& chapesses). Hopefully it wont be as bad as feared.
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Things could be better for our jobs:
- VFR flying all done in Texas. Yes, but it dosn't mean that there are jobs there for us. Most of the instructing is done by low hours FAA instructors. So much for the quality image. So much for UK jobs. When airlines do that it is called flagging out.
- New CFI in Texas - lost his job just as soon as he was in post. Replaced by a SFI to save money (and good luck to JJ)
- VR retires as CFI Modular - job downgraded to a SFI one to save money
- HofT leaves - replaced by a part-timer dragged from semi-retirement (a gent all the same)
- Rumours of more to go after this week's batch - will the last to leave please turn out the lights
- VFR flying all done in Texas. Yes, but it dosn't mean that there are jobs there for us. Most of the instructing is done by low hours FAA instructors. So much for the quality image. So much for UK jobs. When airlines do that it is called flagging out.
- New CFI in Texas - lost his job just as soon as he was in post. Replaced by a SFI to save money (and good luck to JJ)
- VR retires as CFI Modular - job downgraded to a SFI one to save money
- HofT leaves - replaced by a part-timer dragged from semi-retirement (a gent all the same)
- Rumours of more to go after this week's batch - will the last to leave please turn out the lights
