Students with English as a 2nd Language
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Students with English as a 2nd Language
Many student pilots training in Australia speak English as a second language (E2L). Having had several years training students with E2L, I've seen some quite interesting, funny and darn unsafe situations emerge.
Lack of an adequate level of competence in the English language impacts adversely on the performance of the individual concerned. Not to mention the safety of all in the vicinity, at the time.
Does anyone care to comment on this developing problem, and the apparent lack of concern expressed by the authorities and some operators? Are the authorities and/or operators more concerned with the recruitment of overseas revenue, than with safety and the pursuit of acceptable standards? Should specific English standards be enforced, as are those by universities (IELTS, etc.), for E2L students?
Interested in participating in a formal research project in this field? E-mail your details to [email protected]
[This message has been edited by Whiskey Hotel Delta (edited 13 February 1999).]
Lack of an adequate level of competence in the English language impacts adversely on the performance of the individual concerned. Not to mention the safety of all in the vicinity, at the time.
Does anyone care to comment on this developing problem, and the apparent lack of concern expressed by the authorities and some operators? Are the authorities and/or operators more concerned with the recruitment of overseas revenue, than with safety and the pursuit of acceptable standards? Should specific English standards be enforced, as are those by universities (IELTS, etc.), for E2L students?
Interested in participating in a formal research project in this field? E-mail your details to [email protected]
[This message has been edited by Whiskey Hotel Delta (edited 13 February 1999).]
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A few years ago I was employed at a college in S.A. At any time there was over 100 Cadets on campus. I think that many of these did not even have English as a second language. It was largely dependent upon the level of western influence in their home country.
Generally, folks from places like Indonesia and Malaysia had a better grasp of English than, say China, Korea or Vietnam. To their credit, I admire all of them for being able to learn such a complex task in a foreign (to them) language.
Regardless of that, all students received formal training at the Ground School in 'aviation English' I don't think that course goes far enough to address the problems being experienced at the moment. Fourex ample, we all (both pilots, FSO's and ATCO's) 'slip' on occasion, and use non-standard phraseology with our R/T. If the student hasn't learnt it, then it's an endless loop of "say again?"
I agree that there must be a higher level of English competency with the training of foreign students.
W.H.D, count me in. Check my profile for details. By the way, take a look at the thread I started a couple of months ago titled "unusual student responses" Perhaps you have a contribution or two?
[This message has been edited by Hugh Jarse (edited 13 February 1999).]
Generally, folks from places like Indonesia and Malaysia had a better grasp of English than, say China, Korea or Vietnam. To their credit, I admire all of them for being able to learn such a complex task in a foreign (to them) language.
Regardless of that, all students received formal training at the Ground School in 'aviation English' I don't think that course goes far enough to address the problems being experienced at the moment. Fourex ample, we all (both pilots, FSO's and ATCO's) 'slip' on occasion, and use non-standard phraseology with our R/T. If the student hasn't learnt it, then it's an endless loop of "say again?"
I agree that there must be a higher level of English competency with the training of foreign students.
W.H.D, count me in. Check my profile for details. By the way, take a look at the thread I started a couple of months ago titled "unusual student responses" Perhaps you have a contribution or two?
[This message has been edited by Hugh Jarse (edited 13 February 1999).]
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Interesting observations, H.J. I have found the same thing, having spent about ten years with students originating from the same region, each undergoing similar full-time courses.
Likewise, our clients underwent the "aviation English" course, which failed to account for a satisfactory level of comprehension. However, the economic situation has since seen the abolition of the course, and removal of any specified level of English competency prior to the commencement of training. Doubtless the token gesture was substantially better than its complete absence.
Given that the only formal checkpoint for English competency is currently the issue of the SPL, the pressure is now placed wholly on the CFI. This is frequently more an economic consideration, than anything else, despite the better moral judgement, otherwise exercised.
Unfortunately, I have found the "say again" option is rarely exercised here, at Bankstown, and its surrounds. Mostly there is just the "clipped callsign response", despite the feverish attempts of ATC, FIS or other aircrew to elicit a sensible answer to a simple question. Seemingly it is difficult to change the cultural aspects accompanying language barriers, which might otherwise allow the individual to accept a potential or actual mistake.
Regardless, I, too, take my hat off to the guys and gals from o/s, who battle with English and achieve the standard in the end. Despite my empathy and the endless hours of training, an acceptable and measureable English standard is very much in order, methinks.
Tks for your willingness to help with the research, too. I'll be in touch. Cheers!
Likewise, our clients underwent the "aviation English" course, which failed to account for a satisfactory level of comprehension. However, the economic situation has since seen the abolition of the course, and removal of any specified level of English competency prior to the commencement of training. Doubtless the token gesture was substantially better than its complete absence.
Given that the only formal checkpoint for English competency is currently the issue of the SPL, the pressure is now placed wholly on the CFI. This is frequently more an economic consideration, than anything else, despite the better moral judgement, otherwise exercised.
Unfortunately, I have found the "say again" option is rarely exercised here, at Bankstown, and its surrounds. Mostly there is just the "clipped callsign response", despite the feverish attempts of ATC, FIS or other aircrew to elicit a sensible answer to a simple question. Seemingly it is difficult to change the cultural aspects accompanying language barriers, which might otherwise allow the individual to accept a potential or actual mistake.
Regardless, I, too, take my hat off to the guys and gals from o/s, who battle with English and achieve the standard in the end. Despite my empathy and the endless hours of training, an acceptable and measureable English standard is very much in order, methinks.
Tks for your willingness to help with the research, too. I'll be in touch. Cheers!
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Experience I’ve had of English as a Second Language has been predominantly from a CFIs point of view.
It is a PROBLEM, and as usual CASA has dropped the parcel in the lap of the CFIs and industry, as it was too hot for them to handle.
E2L is more of a problem for the smaller schools, as they tend to have more self sponsored students who have less funds (and are less willing to spend) to devote to English Courses.
When it comes to a CFI accessing a students English for the issue of a SPL we have a problem. Mainly that the assessment is a PERSONAL OPINION of the students ability. I don’t feel it is fair on either party for an opinion to be used, it must be a hard and fast reproducible criteria.
If the student is able to communicate (ie, good morning, how are you, what did you have for breakfast etc) should he/she not be issued with a SPL because I don’t think they’ll handle a cramped, hot, noisy, aircraft environment with over worked ATC at the end of a shift, with radios that are less than perfect ?
At present economics do come into play, I have an instructor breathing down my neck to keep his student flying, management and aircraft owners wanting to know why the flying has dropped off, management wanting to know why am I being an obstructionist (perhaps they need another CFI). Remember this is all over my OPINION of the students English.
The students at my school would arrive in Oz without being able to speak a word of English, attend a 6 month English course, and arrive on my doorstep wanting to learn to fly with 50k in his hand. Yes he can pass with the usual pleasantries of good morning etc, but will he handle being taught in technical language with words and phrases that are difficult for a native speaker ? Yes they do handle it, but it may take another 9 to 12 months, close to when they should be taking a CPL or CIR flight test.
I don’t know what the answer is, we CANNOT afford to turn these people away, but we need to start with a minimum testable standard which is not based on opinion. For this to happen CASA needs to take a leading role (for a change), so that a CFI does not have to worry about not issuing a SPL due to an English problem only for the school next door to issue the license and with it take the student. The other risk of losing 1 student is that the rest of his mates may follow him as their allegiances lie with each other not with your school.
Whiskey Hotel Delta I’d be happy to help out, though I’m no longer CFI with that school (YSBK) as it went under last year.
It is a PROBLEM, and as usual CASA has dropped the parcel in the lap of the CFIs and industry, as it was too hot for them to handle.
E2L is more of a problem for the smaller schools, as they tend to have more self sponsored students who have less funds (and are less willing to spend) to devote to English Courses.
When it comes to a CFI accessing a students English for the issue of a SPL we have a problem. Mainly that the assessment is a PERSONAL OPINION of the students ability. I don’t feel it is fair on either party for an opinion to be used, it must be a hard and fast reproducible criteria.
If the student is able to communicate (ie, good morning, how are you, what did you have for breakfast etc) should he/she not be issued with a SPL because I don’t think they’ll handle a cramped, hot, noisy, aircraft environment with over worked ATC at the end of a shift, with radios that are less than perfect ?
At present economics do come into play, I have an instructor breathing down my neck to keep his student flying, management and aircraft owners wanting to know why the flying has dropped off, management wanting to know why am I being an obstructionist (perhaps they need another CFI). Remember this is all over my OPINION of the students English.
The students at my school would arrive in Oz without being able to speak a word of English, attend a 6 month English course, and arrive on my doorstep wanting to learn to fly with 50k in his hand. Yes he can pass with the usual pleasantries of good morning etc, but will he handle being taught in technical language with words and phrases that are difficult for a native speaker ? Yes they do handle it, but it may take another 9 to 12 months, close to when they should be taking a CPL or CIR flight test.
I don’t know what the answer is, we CANNOT afford to turn these people away, but we need to start with a minimum testable standard which is not based on opinion. For this to happen CASA needs to take a leading role (for a change), so that a CFI does not have to worry about not issuing a SPL due to an English problem only for the school next door to issue the license and with it take the student. The other risk of losing 1 student is that the rest of his mates may follow him as their allegiances lie with each other not with your school.
Whiskey Hotel Delta I’d be happy to help out, though I’m no longer CFI with that school (YSBK) as it went under last year.
I seem to remember when I was instructing some years ago (at Moorabbin) that the test for Engilish for the SPL was that a student had to be able to read, and then answer basic questions from, a couple of paragraphs from the AIP.
This isn't (or wasn't) written anywhere?
This isn't (or wasn't) written anywhere?
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WHD,
Be glad to help with anecdotes and tales of frustration and woe. Finished working last september for a co. in Melb which dealt exclusively with Students from a particular country.
Needless to say the standard of English Language was appalling on the whole. Remember in a CPL theory course watching a student cirlcle the word "reduce" and look it up in the dictionary. He had GFPT and 5 hrs xc PIC.
The clipped callsign was a classic trademark too. Any instruction from another a/c or out of the ordinary was replied with callsign, understood or not.
In reply to the authorities' revenue issue you raised - definitely!
The other aspect vaguely related is the fact that many kids who come out here (not airline cadets, but the self sponsored (read parents) ) are just here for a holiday and think that it is a big joke. Not to mention the fact that one or two were completely hopeless - just rich parents.
One tale to show this. Student flying from Moorabbin to Leongatha. ends up flying out over the water, heading for tassie. many many miles offshore he is still studying the map, thinking bass straight is westernport bay.
I'll participate in the research, however I'll be emailess in a couple of weeks
Be glad to help with anecdotes and tales of frustration and woe. Finished working last september for a co. in Melb which dealt exclusively with Students from a particular country.
Needless to say the standard of English Language was appalling on the whole. Remember in a CPL theory course watching a student cirlcle the word "reduce" and look it up in the dictionary. He had GFPT and 5 hrs xc PIC.
The clipped callsign was a classic trademark too. Any instruction from another a/c or out of the ordinary was replied with callsign, understood or not.
In reply to the authorities' revenue issue you raised - definitely!
The other aspect vaguely related is the fact that many kids who come out here (not airline cadets, but the self sponsored (read parents) ) are just here for a holiday and think that it is a big joke. Not to mention the fact that one or two were completely hopeless - just rich parents.
One tale to show this. Student flying from Moorabbin to Leongatha. ends up flying out over the water, heading for tassie. many many miles offshore he is still studying the map, thinking bass straight is westernport bay.
I'll participate in the research, however I'll be emailess in a couple of weeks
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E2L students have been a problem when sharing the airways for some time. Some of them should have never been sent on a X/C.
Although there is a process in place which should (?) seek a certain level of English understanding and speech by the students it is obviously not working.
I believe commercial considerations have taken over, so that the flying school can bank the $ before the student goes elsewhere.
The standard of English should be set and examined by CASA or some other body that does not have a commercial influence on the outcome.
Using 'standard phrases' do help but are not enough from my experience.
Although there is a process in place which should (?) seek a certain level of English understanding and speech by the students it is obviously not working.
I believe commercial considerations have taken over, so that the flying school can bank the $ before the student goes elsewhere.
The standard of English should be set and examined by CASA or some other body that does not have a commercial influence on the outcome.
Using 'standard phrases' do help but are not enough from my experience.
