Do you like being instructors?
Safety First!
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 516
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From: New Zealand
At the end of the day if you can fly the aeroplane accurately and safely, you enjoy it, and you can teach, what or where is the problem? The differring views FNG and Nightrider have are because of confusion over what 'Professional' means. By definition a Professional pilot is a CPL or higher holder. Any pilot, regardless of licence, can and should always have, a Professional outlook to aviation.
Kermie
Kermie
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
From: West Sussex,England
Well I like being an instructor and am looking to make a full time job out of it.
My probelm is the Airline pilots who wanted to move on to the "jet" job and like the idea of coming back and pinching the work of the full time instructors.
And, what above this NPPL I hear that ppl pilots will be able to teach it.
My probelm is the Airline pilots who wanted to move on to the "jet" job and like the idea of coming back and pinching the work of the full time instructors.
And, what above this NPPL I hear that ppl pilots will be able to teach it.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,077
Likes: 1
From: Oop North, UK
FNG- I would think anyone who has been instructing now without doing a BCPL has enough interest in just instructing that they will be interested enough to be GOOD instructors.
EGKA - those of us that are flying airlines are not trying to take jobs away, just put something back into aviation, personaly i try to make it that i do NOT undercut those that are trying to make a living from instructing.
EGKA - those of us that are flying airlines are not trying to take jobs away, just put something back into aviation, personaly i try to make it that i do NOT undercut those that are trying to make a living from instructing.
Not so N, but still FG
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,417
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From: London, UK
foxmoth, I agree with your observation, but I suspect that Mr Hasselhof may not. Kermie, I agree that the term "professional" tends to get bandied around without much regard for precise meaning. What do you think, talking-car bloke?
Moderator
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,137
Likes: 38
From: Australia
The subject of "professional" versus "amateur" instructors was hotly debated previously on this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/For...ML/009354.html
Sadly I think there is the potential for a fair bit of conflict amongst all types of instructors.
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/For...ML/009354.html
Sadly I think there is the potential for a fair bit of conflict amongst all types of instructors.
Safety First!
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
From: New Zealand
Well it started as a simple question. Do you think we've said enough negatives to actually put TigerMoth off becoming an instructor? Come on, some postives would be great. Its a cool job, sure beats flying a desk.
Kermie
Kermie
Guest
Posts: n/a
FNG,
Thanyou for your reply. I don't want to get into an argument on this subject as there is no "right" answer in this matter - our opinions are equally valid.
I have considered what you have said in your replies and I would like to share with you a few thoughts,particularly on the situation at my airfield.
I work at an airfield roughly in the centre of the country. On the field there are 4 flying schools and at thoses schools there are about 20 flying instructors (some part-time, some full-time). Of those instructors, only 4 (just under a quarter) are instructing on 'grandfather rights'(GR) BCPL's so I take your point about them being in a minority.(actually, those 4 are the CFI's of the 4 schools!)
To be fair, I think my mind may be slighty poisoned towards certain GR BCPL's anyway. I know 2 of the 4 mentioned above quite well and they are ALL of the opinion that just because they have been instructing donkey's years and 1000's of hours on C152's (flying around the local area in nice weather) they deserve a full CPL. This attitude really p*ss*d me off. How arrogant of them to think that they deserve the same qualification as me when they hav'nt been near a CAA exam room or IR flight test. Not one of them has a good word to say about anyone with a CPL/ATPL. Basically, I think it boils down to jealousy !
(One of them has sat the CAA CPL exams but failed them all - so he went back to instructing and tells everyone who asks that "he never wanted to be a commercial pilot" anyway!)
I think there is also a lot of truth in the point raised earlier about GR BCPL's being more dedicated to instructing. They need to be, as they are'nt qualified to earn from any other kind of flying!
Its a funny old world. I don't want to make life difficult for anyone and I am definately not suggesting that one pilot is better than another. I accept that the remaining GR BCPL's are the survivors of the "old system" and are basically licenced and competent to do what they do.
I also think it is worth remembering that the rules have now been changed for a reason. Clearly, the powers that be have decided that instructors should have "CPL level knowledge" before being allowed to instruct - that says something. The CAA obviously think this level of knowledge is necessary to be competent instructor.
The GR BCPL's are gradually dissappearing with the implementation of the new regulations and we are slowly approaching a world where instructors have received basically the same level of training, the minimum training having been increased.
My origional posting was NOT intended to offend any GR BCPL holder's and I was definately not 'taring them with the same brush' so to speak. I have a great deal of respect for them and their efforts. Circumstances and history have seen to it that, where instructors are concerned, we seem to have one set of rules for one, and one set of rules for another, which is a little unfortunate. Having reflected on my thoughts, I accept that they have benefitted from the changes in licensing which occured 20 years ago (their GR BCPL's were granted on "transitional arrangements" and the wording in their licenses states this clearly) and I do not hold it against them. Times are changing, and these people should accept that if they want to "move on" to other things (airlines, panel examiner etc...) they will have to do the same exams and tests that the rest of us had to do. They have not, by any stretch of the imagination, earned the right to run past the hoops instead of jumping through them!
On reflection, I think my origional posting was largly triggered by a few very self-opinionated GR BCPL's who have a very arrogant and mindless idea of what makes a full CPL/ATPL and what does'nt. Is'nt it an unusual and unauthadox state of affairs when the instructors at a particular school are more qualified (and in many cases more experineced) than the CFI, as is the situation at our school. Food for thought.
Other views and thought's are eargerly awaited.
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Night Rider ]
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Night Rider ]
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Night Rider ]
Thanyou for your reply. I don't want to get into an argument on this subject as there is no "right" answer in this matter - our opinions are equally valid.
I have considered what you have said in your replies and I would like to share with you a few thoughts,particularly on the situation at my airfield.
I work at an airfield roughly in the centre of the country. On the field there are 4 flying schools and at thoses schools there are about 20 flying instructors (some part-time, some full-time). Of those instructors, only 4 (just under a quarter) are instructing on 'grandfather rights'(GR) BCPL's so I take your point about them being in a minority.(actually, those 4 are the CFI's of the 4 schools!)
To be fair, I think my mind may be slighty poisoned towards certain GR BCPL's anyway. I know 2 of the 4 mentioned above quite well and they are ALL of the opinion that just because they have been instructing donkey's years and 1000's of hours on C152's (flying around the local area in nice weather) they deserve a full CPL. This attitude really p*ss*d me off. How arrogant of them to think that they deserve the same qualification as me when they hav'nt been near a CAA exam room or IR flight test. Not one of them has a good word to say about anyone with a CPL/ATPL. Basically, I think it boils down to jealousy !
(One of them has sat the CAA CPL exams but failed them all - so he went back to instructing and tells everyone who asks that "he never wanted to be a commercial pilot" anyway!)
I think there is also a lot of truth in the point raised earlier about GR BCPL's being more dedicated to instructing. They need to be, as they are'nt qualified to earn from any other kind of flying!
Its a funny old world. I don't want to make life difficult for anyone and I am definately not suggesting that one pilot is better than another. I accept that the remaining GR BCPL's are the survivors of the "old system" and are basically licenced and competent to do what they do.
I also think it is worth remembering that the rules have now been changed for a reason. Clearly, the powers that be have decided that instructors should have "CPL level knowledge" before being allowed to instruct - that says something. The CAA obviously think this level of knowledge is necessary to be competent instructor.
The GR BCPL's are gradually dissappearing with the implementation of the new regulations and we are slowly approaching a world where instructors have received basically the same level of training, the minimum training having been increased.
My origional posting was NOT intended to offend any GR BCPL holder's and I was definately not 'taring them with the same brush' so to speak. I have a great deal of respect for them and their efforts. Circumstances and history have seen to it that, where instructors are concerned, we seem to have one set of rules for one, and one set of rules for another, which is a little unfortunate. Having reflected on my thoughts, I accept that they have benefitted from the changes in licensing which occured 20 years ago (their GR BCPL's were granted on "transitional arrangements" and the wording in their licenses states this clearly) and I do not hold it against them. Times are changing, and these people should accept that if they want to "move on" to other things (airlines, panel examiner etc...) they will have to do the same exams and tests that the rest of us had to do. They have not, by any stretch of the imagination, earned the right to run past the hoops instead of jumping through them!
On reflection, I think my origional posting was largly triggered by a few very self-opinionated GR BCPL's who have a very arrogant and mindless idea of what makes a full CPL/ATPL and what does'nt. Is'nt it an unusual and unauthadox state of affairs when the instructors at a particular school are more qualified (and in many cases more experineced) than the CFI, as is the situation at our school. Food for thought.
Other views and thought's are eargerly awaited.
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Night Rider ]
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Night Rider ]
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Night Rider ]
Not so N, but still FG
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,417
Likes: 0
From: London, UK
Night Rider, thank you for your reply. Peace. It sounds as though you have had bad experiences with a few (and hopefully they are very few) dodgy grandad types, just as others have had bad experiences with a few (and hopefully these also are very few) inexperienced hour-builder types who have questionable flying skills and little or no interest in instructing. We can't generalise about what makes the best sort of instructor from experiences of these individuals. Grandad Geezers who have logged zillions of hours of straight and level in spamcans were not the blokes I had in mind when referring to the respectable Sunday afternooners, just as I'm sure that gold-barred 19 year olds were not the blokes you had in mind when referring to exam-qualified professional pilots.
[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: FNG ]
[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: FNG ]
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
From: New Zealand
EGKA
I don't want to "pinch" anyone's job when I come back to instructing, rather I was hoping to employ a few more of the genuine teachers in the world to teach flying, and including perhaps those who actually don't want to fly at all but are quite happy to teach ground school. eg. engineers to teach Air Tech, ex navigators to teach navigation. etc. If you see it as having a job 'pinched' then I disagree with the opinion that the world owes anyone a job. Are you deliberately trying to get rid of anyone with any experience doing the work?
And Kermit 180 - you want some positives. Here's one, I was flying a bunch of doctors and a med student the other day and the weather was fine and the sea was blue and the sky was also blue but with some cirrus waaaaay up there for perspective and the hills were vivid green and he looked at me sitting there in the cruise and said "you've got the best job in the world". And I said, "yeah, the best bit is when I teach someone well enough that they can enjoy it on their own, then they come back and tell me about it, again and again and again".
I don't want to "pinch" anyone's job when I come back to instructing, rather I was hoping to employ a few more of the genuine teachers in the world to teach flying, and including perhaps those who actually don't want to fly at all but are quite happy to teach ground school. eg. engineers to teach Air Tech, ex navigators to teach navigation. etc. If you see it as having a job 'pinched' then I disagree with the opinion that the world owes anyone a job. Are you deliberately trying to get rid of anyone with any experience doing the work?
And Kermit 180 - you want some positives. Here's one, I was flying a bunch of doctors and a med student the other day and the weather was fine and the sea was blue and the sky was also blue but with some cirrus waaaaay up there for perspective and the hills were vivid green and he looked at me sitting there in the cruise and said "you've got the best job in the world". And I said, "yeah, the best bit is when I teach someone well enough that they can enjoy it on their own, then they come back and tell me about it, again and again and again".
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
From: Oakland-California
As far as making Flight Instruction a living. Its really hard to do it economically
unless you get yourself into an abnitio program were you train cadets for a airline.
Ive been a flightinstructor at another flightschool than the one Im currently working at now, and I were barely able to survive. Then I got a job training cadets for an airline, and the pay increased to a quite acceptable level, plus my workday changed from 7 days a week at any time during a days 24 hours, to a normal 5 days a week from 0800 to 1700 kinda job.
At my first job I were close to getting mentally and physically burnt out because I worked long hours with little in return moneywise. Idelogy gets you only so far. Everyone have to be able to afford food.
Then I got into the ab nitio training program, and here we have instructors with thousands of hours and a wealth of knowledge that would get a job in an airline with little problem, but enjoys instructing so much that they dont even consider quitting instructing. Some have even been flying in the airline, grown tired from it and returned to their roots, flight instructing.
Bottom line. Living ONLY from flight instructing is usually quite hard, unless you get yourself into a solid company with an cadet training program. Here you will get ALOT of pressure from your bosses, but in return you get a fairly normal life and a pretty good pay.
PS: Im working in USA (Norwegian citizen, but still quite happy with were I am right now.)
unless you get yourself into an abnitio program were you train cadets for a airline.
Ive been a flightinstructor at another flightschool than the one Im currently working at now, and I were barely able to survive. Then I got a job training cadets for an airline, and the pay increased to a quite acceptable level, plus my workday changed from 7 days a week at any time during a days 24 hours, to a normal 5 days a week from 0800 to 1700 kinda job.
At my first job I were close to getting mentally and physically burnt out because I worked long hours with little in return moneywise. Idelogy gets you only so far. Everyone have to be able to afford food.
Then I got into the ab nitio training program, and here we have instructors with thousands of hours and a wealth of knowledge that would get a job in an airline with little problem, but enjoys instructing so much that they dont even consider quitting instructing. Some have even been flying in the airline, grown tired from it and returned to their roots, flight instructing.
Bottom line. Living ONLY from flight instructing is usually quite hard, unless you get yourself into a solid company with an cadet training program. Here you will get ALOT of pressure from your bosses, but in return you get a fairly normal life and a pretty good pay.
PS: Im working in USA (Norwegian citizen, but still quite happy with were I am right now.)
