Just want to clear something up....

[Si]

When flying in class F airspace downward VMC minima states that for flights below FL100 but above 3000ft has to have vis of 5km, 1500m and 1000ft from cloud, so does that mean i can fly 1000ft above broken cloud, so that i am 1000ft FROM it? Surely not right even if I am not IMC rated.

[Megaton]

I'm hopeless at remembering vis requirements but you also need to conside the privileges of your licence. SO if you're a PPL you should realise that your minima are greater than the VFR minima.

[Night Rider]

Si,

Remeber, a UK PPL (without IMC rating or IR) requires you to be "in sight of the surface". You might get away with sitting 1000 ft above a broken layer of cloud, but I would'nt recommend it for two reasons:

1. The cloud may become overcast which would make your flight illegal.

2. You would (unless the destination was below clear skies) have to descend throught the cloud layer - difinate taboo without an IMC rating or IR.

If I were you mate I'd get yourself an IR - then you hav'nt got to worry about it so much!

Happy flying....

[Yogi-Bear]

You can definitely do what you are suggesting over scattered but you would have some difficulty maintaining separation from cloud whilst descending through broken, wouldn't you?
Yeh, do the CPL knowledge and spend £10K plus on an IR. That's the answer to your problem. :o

[Night Rider]

Yogi-Bear,

I couldn't really tell whether your comment was supporting my advice to Si or not. I hope I am wrong, but I did detect a little sarcasm in your reply (not really sure what the faces were suggesting!). Am I correct?

[Si]

Cheers for the replies, its not long now before i start my IMC course so hopefully things will be ok then, but again thanks anyway, i felt a little dumb asking the question because it doesn't say anywhere that a PPL holder without any other rating CANNOT GO ABOVE CLOUD!

['I' in the sky]

Still not quite right, Si.
Can go above cloud as long as the coverage is such that you can still maintain visual contact with the surface.
Suffice to say that would imply, although it doesn't expressly state, useful visual contact.

[FlyingForFun]

Hi!

I'm not a regular poster on this forum, but I thought I'd add my thoughts anyway, as a new PPL still trying to get to grips with this myself - mainly to check I understand it correctly.

As with many things, what you are allowed to do and what it is sensible to do (i.e. good airmanship) are not the same.

In the case of flying above cloud, if I've understood correctly, it is legal to fly above cloud, so long as you can see the surface.

Thus, it would be legal to climb through a scattered layer (where the gaps were big enough to get through without breaking the 1500m/1000' rule), then stay on top of that layer as it incresed to 7/8 broken (but not if it becomes 8/8), and descend through it again once it goes back to scattered and I can avoid breaking the 1500m/1000' rule.

Although legal, I would suggest this is definitely not good airmanship.

Also, I believe it's legal to climb through a hole in even a 7/8 broken layer as long as it's below 3000', where the 1500m/1000' rule doesn't apply - but again, this would not be good airmanship.

Is this a fair summary? Or have I got completely the wrong end of the stick here?

Cheers,

FFF
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[bookworm]

Also, I believe it's legal to climb through a hole in even a 7/8 broken layer as long as it's below 3000', where the 1500m/1000' rule doesn't apply - but again, this would not be good airmanship.

From a legal standpoint, presuming all this is outside controlled airspace you don't need to be concerned about the 1500m/1000' rule at all if you are above the instrument safety altitude (1000 ft above the highest fixed object within 5 nm). You would then be obeying the Instrument Flight Rules rather than the Visual Flight Rules, which is fine, provided you maintain the PPL licence-privilege minimum visibility of 3 km, and have the appropriate instruments aboard. For IFR outside controlled airspace this is a minimal set (turn and slip, altimeter).

As you rightly say, what is technically legal may not be smart. Sometimes it helps to think about the VFR/IFR and licence privilege stuff in terms of what it was designed to achieve. If you go through and above the hole in the cloud layer, will you be able to see outside well enough to:

a) keep control of the aircraft
b) avoid any obstacles, mountains etc.
c) navigate and
d) have a reasonable chance of avoiding other aircraft?

If the answer to any of those is no, it's probably not a sensible plan. Without an IMC rating or IR, I'd worry most about a) during the climb and c) while on top.