Flying a holding pattern with X-Wind
Guest
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Flying a holding pattern with X-Wind
Hi there,
I'm just seeking a second opinion on this. I'm currently training for an Instrument Rating and have started doing some sim flying. My instructor has advised to fly rate-one turns in all circumstances, however, I beg to differ, when a significant amount of cross-wind is in effect.
Here's the senario;
It is a right hand circuit.
Track inbound on the holding pattern is 340.
Wind is 250/30.
When turning inbound, I would be subjected to a significant amount of headwind during the turn. If I hold a rate-one turn, I will find myself well inside my inbound track of 340 due to the headwind on the turn.
But if I turn with a shallow bank angle (less than rate one?), then I find myself in a much better position to intercept the inbound track, and in some cases, will rollout spot-on on the inbound track.
Is this the best technique?
I know of other "text-book" techniques like applying 2 times, or 3 times the wind correction angle (accounting for drift) on the outbound leg so that I fly inside the pattern, so that turning with a rate-one turn, with the tighter turn due to wind, will result in a rollout on (or near) the inbound track.
I'd be interested in your thoughts.
Cheers
[This message has been edited by training wheels (edited 11 June 2001).]
I'm just seeking a second opinion on this. I'm currently training for an Instrument Rating and have started doing some sim flying. My instructor has advised to fly rate-one turns in all circumstances, however, I beg to differ, when a significant amount of cross-wind is in effect.
Here's the senario;
It is a right hand circuit.
Track inbound on the holding pattern is 340.
Wind is 250/30.
When turning inbound, I would be subjected to a significant amount of headwind during the turn. If I hold a rate-one turn, I will find myself well inside my inbound track of 340 due to the headwind on the turn.
But if I turn with a shallow bank angle (less than rate one?), then I find myself in a much better position to intercept the inbound track, and in some cases, will rollout spot-on on the inbound track.
Is this the best technique?
I know of other "text-book" techniques like applying 2 times, or 3 times the wind correction angle (accounting for drift) on the outbound leg so that I fly inside the pattern, so that turning with a rate-one turn, with the tighter turn due to wind, will result in a rollout on (or near) the inbound track.
I'd be interested in your thoughts.
Cheers
[This message has been edited by training wheels (edited 11 June 2001).]
Guest
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What you are saying is essentially correct
You need to achieve the required QDM inbound
so you could advocate turning 90 degrees
roll level push the needle then continue the turn until QDM is OK
Stick with rate 1 in the turns though
[This message has been edited by RVR800 (edited 11 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by RVR800 (edited 11 June 2001).]
You need to achieve the required QDM inbound
so you could advocate turning 90 degrees
roll level push the needle then continue the turn until QDM is OK
Stick with rate 1 in the turns though
[This message has been edited by RVR800 (edited 11 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by RVR800 (edited 11 June 2001).]
Guest
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I always tought and flew 3 times drift outbound (2 times on a procedure/base turn).
It works well and seems to be what the examiners want to see on a test.
Adjusting bank angles slightly whilst turning inbound if you see an undershoot of the axis is Ok, but never exceed rate one.
Its interesting whatching FMS holds, they fly a perfect racetrack pattern and adjust bank angle to correct. With strong X winds blowing you into the inbound axis they always overshoot !
Good luck
It works well and seems to be what the examiners want to see on a test.
Adjusting bank angles slightly whilst turning inbound if you see an undershoot of the axis is Ok, but never exceed rate one.
Its interesting whatching FMS holds, they fly a perfect racetrack pattern and adjust bank angle to correct. With strong X winds blowing you into the inbound axis they always overshoot !
Good luck
Guest
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The CAA does, if my memory serves me correctly, like you to fly rate 1 at all times and to roll off the bank totally if needs be. It helps combat the ADF leading or lagging aswell. That will only happen in the A/C though. I haven't "flown" an FNPT that replicates this.
Good luck with the test.
[This message has been edited by Say again s l o w l y (edited 11 June 2001).]
Good luck with the test.
[This message has been edited by Say again s l o w l y (edited 11 June 2001).]
Guest
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The way I see it is, if you keep a constant turn during the holding pattern and choose to double the inbound drift for the outbound leg, then you only have one variable, the amount of drift you have applied. Therefore if it doesn't go quite your way you only need to adjust the drift angle for corrections.
If you choose to adjust the AOB during the turn as well as double your drift on the outbound leg, then you now have two variables, the AOB and the drift angle. So when it doesn't go quite your way, do you adjust the AOB in the turn or the drift angle or both???
For this reason I choose to double my drift angle and fly a constant AOB.
There are obviously other ways such as no or a constant drift angle and choosingto adjust your variable of the AOB.
From my experience whatever works for you and is safe and legal is ok.
Nice to see a student questioning procedures, it shows that your thinking, you don't see much of that anymore!!!
If you choose to adjust the AOB during the turn as well as double your drift on the outbound leg, then you now have two variables, the AOB and the drift angle. So when it doesn't go quite your way, do you adjust the AOB in the turn or the drift angle or both???
For this reason I choose to double my drift angle and fly a constant AOB.
There are obviously other ways such as no or a constant drift angle and choosingto adjust your variable of the AOB.
From my experience whatever works for you and is safe and legal is ok.
Nice to see a student questioning procedures, it shows that your thinking, you don't see much of that anymore!!!
Guest
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New PANS OPS, the procedures for designing holding patterns says that "All turns should be made at a bank angle of 25deg or at a rate of 3 deg/sec, which ever requires the lesser bank" it goes on to say "All prodedures depict tracks and pilots should attempt to maintain the track by making allowance for known wind by applying corrections to both heading and timing during entry and while flying in the holding pattern"
PANS OPS says nothing about varying bank angles, and so the people who design holding patterns / altitudes do not make any allowances for this!
These are the R&Rs; which techniques YOU want to adopt is up to you ;-)
(And yes, in a strong X-wind, I also vary my bank angles, but never more than 30deg to avoid vertigo etc...)
PANS OPS says nothing about varying bank angles, and so the people who design holding patterns / altitudes do not make any allowances for this!
These are the R&Rs; which techniques YOU want to adopt is up to you ;-)
(And yes, in a strong X-wind, I also vary my bank angles, but never more than 30deg to avoid vertigo etc...)
Guest
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By not applying any drift correction, the procedure must take longer. The drift corrections also allow you to mentally calculate the wind drift therefore making the inbound procedure easier which is surely what the hold is supposed to do apart from seperating traffic. Hmmm maybe people just dont understand NDB approaches?
Guest
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Thank you all for your valuable contributions.
I'll take the advice to not exceed 25-30 degrees AoB during the turns....... I guess, in a motionless sim, the effects of vertigo aren't as apparent to you. And furthermore, the real aircraft won't be as forgiving as the sim, when trying to maintain a medium level turn, especially when AoB exceeds 30 degrees.
I'll be back in the sim tomorrow and will try applying 2 and 3 times drift angle on the outbound leg, and then holding a constant rate 1 turn when turning inbound. Although this was the technique demonstrated to me, the trace of the resulting holding pattern looked more like an ice cream cone, than a race-track, but it appears this technique is the one that is widely used by others.
Cheers
I'll take the advice to not exceed 25-30 degrees AoB during the turns....... I guess, in a motionless sim, the effects of vertigo aren't as apparent to you. And furthermore, the real aircraft won't be as forgiving as the sim, when trying to maintain a medium level turn, especially when AoB exceeds 30 degrees.
I'll be back in the sim tomorrow and will try applying 2 and 3 times drift angle on the outbound leg, and then holding a constant rate 1 turn when turning inbound. Although this was the technique demonstrated to me, the trace of the resulting holding pattern looked more like an ice cream cone, than a race-track, but it appears this technique is the one that is widely used by others.
Cheers
