Mid-Air Collision at OATS
Guest
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Anyone have the instructor's names? (I used to work there)
8 or 9 in the circuit was not unusual when I was there - very difficult for anyone to learn anything when it was like that - too busy looking for others - I used to load up my LAA charges and head for Staverton...
8 or 9 in the circuit was not unusual when I was there - very difficult for anyone to learn anything when it was like that - too busy looking for others - I used to load up my LAA charges and head for Staverton...
Guest
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The prop from the lower a/c chewed off one flap assembly from the upper a/c and made a mess of the stabilator. The lower a/c, for its efforts, gained a major rip across the upper surface of its wing (from the tie down eye on the upper a/c). So at impact, the lower a/c was a couple of feet behind and to the side of the upper a/c. Ouch!
Guest
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A lot of the problem at Kidlington is that the circuit is v. tightly constrained, by the danger area at Weston-on-the-Green to the north and by the Brize CTR to the south. There's therefore v. little room to extend downwind for spacing, hence lots of go-arounds happen due to a/c getting too close to each other.
They also encourage traffic to join the circuit from all sorts of random directions ('more commercial'!) which is a recipe for disaster in such a busy and constrained pattern.
A parallel runway would help, but (a) I doubt that there's room on the airfield, (b) it would b***er up the helicopter training, and (c) the Duke of Whatever in Blenheim Palace would just ~love~ traffic in the opposite circuit flying straight over his back yard!
Well done to the instructors for keeping themselves and the students alive!
They also encourage traffic to join the circuit from all sorts of random directions ('more commercial'!) which is a recipe for disaster in such a busy and constrained pattern.
A parallel runway would help, but (a) I doubt that there's room on the airfield, (b) it would b***er up the helicopter training, and (c) the Duke of Whatever in Blenheim Palace would just ~love~ traffic in the opposite circuit flying straight over his back yard!
Well done to the instructors for keeping themselves and the students alive!
Guest
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It was only a matter of time- the OATS circuit is a nightmare.
Problem is ATC start losing the plot- to many heads in the cockpit and not looking out- there are to many young flying instructors hour building and losing the plot in the air. The older flying instructors are much more on the ball.
PA 28s keep their landing lights on for the whole duration of flight- The Seneca’s landing lights are covered up when the gear doors close (good invention Piper).
ILS at OATS wouldn't solve the problem.
Brize are starting to lose interest in OATS a/c- Heaven knows why RAF Benson isn't adopted for ILS- RADAR services.
No need for names to be put on here- so WWW keep your nose out of it.
Oshkosh is spot on- the circuit if pretty in-flexible esp. with some of the OATS stupid SOPs and Noise abatement- It's one thing keeping noise down- and another acting safely and accepting a bollocking. Yarnton Get Stuffed.
These 4 Pilots where very lucky to walk away from both a/c.
OATS Management- Listen- before your butt is there.
ATC can't be blamed- its too much pressure- and not enough R/T Space for effective communication.
Problem is ATC start losing the plot- to many heads in the cockpit and not looking out- there are to many young flying instructors hour building and losing the plot in the air. The older flying instructors are much more on the ball.
PA 28s keep their landing lights on for the whole duration of flight- The Seneca’s landing lights are covered up when the gear doors close (good invention Piper).
ILS at OATS wouldn't solve the problem.
Brize are starting to lose interest in OATS a/c- Heaven knows why RAF Benson isn't adopted for ILS- RADAR services.
No need for names to be put on here- so WWW keep your nose out of it.
Oshkosh is spot on- the circuit if pretty in-flexible esp. with some of the OATS stupid SOPs and Noise abatement- It's one thing keeping noise down- and another acting safely and accepting a bollocking. Yarnton Get Stuffed.
These 4 Pilots where very lucky to walk away from both a/c.
OATS Management- Listen- before your butt is there.
ATC can't be blamed- its too much pressure- and not enough R/T Space for effective communication.
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 122
Likes: 3
From: Manchester,England
Glad to hear no one was hurt.
ILS would be no use.
No need for any names allow them the same annonymity as we all enjoy.
The main problem is most likely the maximising if aircraft, last time I was ther RUNNING CHANGES seemed to be the norm. When I was there it was more laidback- you had the plane to yourself for half a day!
As I remember circuits were pretty big back then and we had to contend with Upper Heyford!
ILS would be no use.
No need for any names allow them the same annonymity as we all enjoy.
The main problem is most likely the maximising if aircraft, last time I was ther RUNNING CHANGES seemed to be the norm. When I was there it was more laidback- you had the plane to yourself for half a day!
As I remember circuits were pretty big back then and we had to contend with Upper Heyford!
Guest
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Just been reliving all those OATS days and remembered something even scarier than the kidders circuit - the Westcott NDB.
It was regularly used by 5 or 6 a/c all practising holds or procedures and is the only place my instructor ever took control to avoid other a/c (3 times on separate occasions). The best bit was that Cabair chaps used to go there too and be under FIS from EGTC whilst we were on Oxfords App.
Now that place is an accident waiting to happen - no control, no co-operation and no room. Must look interesting on Lutons screens.
It was regularly used by 5 or 6 a/c all practising holds or procedures and is the only place my instructor ever took control to avoid other a/c (3 times on separate occasions). The best bit was that Cabair chaps used to go there too and be under FIS from EGTC whilst we were on Oxfords App.
Now that place is an accident waiting to happen - no control, no co-operation and no room. Must look interesting on Lutons screens.
Guest
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In all circuit situations you must be aware of what's going on, OK, so it's easier at some airfields than others, I grant you that!
I suggest that everyone in the circuit has a responsibility for safety as well as the ATC.
Aerosexual I would humbly suggest that if your mate was visual with the 2 aircraft ahead of him and yet he was told he was No.2, then he should have said something to ATC immediately. Surely that's what good airmanship is all about, and would contribute to good Circuit Resourse Management.
I suggest that everyone in the circuit has a responsibility for safety as well as the ATC.
Aerosexual I would humbly suggest that if your mate was visual with the 2 aircraft ahead of him and yet he was told he was No.2, then he should have said something to ATC immediately. Surely that's what good airmanship is all about, and would contribute to good Circuit Resourse Management.
Guest
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This is an almost exact repeat of an incident almost a year ago when a PA23, ahead of and below a PA28 on final to RW 02, was told to go-around. On that occasion the two aircraft luckily missed by a few tens of yards. The UKAB have not yet published their findings but one of the pilots involved has been told that it was assessed as 'A'.
All the talk about radar, ILS, etc. is just a smokescreen. This incident happened in the visual circuit on short final and would not have been seen on radar even if it existed. The reason Oxford never got ILS is quite simple - the runway is too narrow. In order to install ILS you must have a standard width runway and the cost of widening 02/20 would be far more than a second-hand ILS. The excuse that ILS would attract too much visiting traffic was perfectly valid before most circuit work was exported to the USA, you only have to look at how often you have to extend the downwind leg for ILS traffic at Coventry or Cranfield to see the point.
The fact is that the priorities at Oxford are being set by the beancounters with no attention being paid to safety or good practice. Instructors are being bribed, blackmailed and bullied to get airborne, irrespective of weather, training value or safety. BL has been sidelined and replaced by an ILS puppet who has never before been involved in commercial flying training, the guy who is running VFR wouldn't recognise quality training if it bit him and the morale in ATC has been rock bottom for a long time.
Perhaps one of the insiders might like to suggest why the chief standards man/flight safety officer suddenly left for a job in the Belgrano (for, rumour has it, significantly less money) to be closely followed by a second standardiser?
For all their drawbacks and deficiencies, BAe must be rubbing their hands with glee. They know only too well the effect that an incident like this can have on contracts.
All the talk about radar, ILS, etc. is just a smokescreen. This incident happened in the visual circuit on short final and would not have been seen on radar even if it existed. The reason Oxford never got ILS is quite simple - the runway is too narrow. In order to install ILS you must have a standard width runway and the cost of widening 02/20 would be far more than a second-hand ILS. The excuse that ILS would attract too much visiting traffic was perfectly valid before most circuit work was exported to the USA, you only have to look at how often you have to extend the downwind leg for ILS traffic at Coventry or Cranfield to see the point.
The fact is that the priorities at Oxford are being set by the beancounters with no attention being paid to safety or good practice. Instructors are being bribed, blackmailed and bullied to get airborne, irrespective of weather, training value or safety. BL has been sidelined and replaced by an ILS puppet who has never before been involved in commercial flying training, the guy who is running VFR wouldn't recognise quality training if it bit him and the morale in ATC has been rock bottom for a long time.
Perhaps one of the insiders might like to suggest why the chief standards man/flight safety officer suddenly left for a job in the Belgrano (for, rumour has it, significantly less money) to be closely followed by a second standardiser?
For all their drawbacks and deficiencies, BAe must be rubbing their hands with glee. They know only too well the effect that an incident like this can have on contracts.
Guest
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rolling circle,
your just a fraud. A few months ago JET A1 asked if you where a flying instructor at Oxford- a fairly smart reply from you said your son was.
Your statement;
"you only have to look at how often you have to extend the downwind leg for ILS traffic at Coventry or Cranfield to see the point."
Leaves no question that your just a OATS FI trying to hide behind a smoke screen. Quit the crap.
Having said that- I don't disagree with your facts in your post.
MM
[This message has been edited by Mini Mouse (edited 02 June 2000).]
your just a fraud. A few months ago JET A1 asked if you where a flying instructor at Oxford- a fairly smart reply from you said your son was.
Your statement;
"you only have to look at how often you have to extend the downwind leg for ILS traffic at Coventry or Cranfield to see the point."
Leaves no question that your just a OATS FI trying to hide behind a smoke screen. Quit the crap.
Having said that- I don't disagree with your facts in your post.
MM
[This message has been edited by Mini Mouse (edited 02 June 2000).]
Guest
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Whatever or whoever Rolling Circle is doesn't hide the fact that his postings are some of the most factual and forthright you will see on these pages.
Should I say they are probably 'spoken with some Authority'!
Allow us all our anonymity please!
Should I say they are probably 'spoken with some Authority'!
Allow us all our anonymity please!
Guest
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Sorry MM, There are people other than OATS FI's in the circuit at Coventry and Cranfield from time to time.
With hand on heart, I can say categorically that I have absolutely no connection with OATS, other than the previously mentioned family link and meeting the odd OATS graduate down the line.
inyoni - a neatly disguised but nevertheless mistaken guess.
With hand on heart, I can say categorically that I have absolutely no connection with OATS, other than the previously mentioned family link and meeting the odd OATS graduate down the line.
inyoni - a neatly disguised but nevertheless mistaken guess.
Guest
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rc does make some very good contributions to these forums.
Mini Mouse:
No need for names to be put on here- so WWW keep your nose out of it.
Well I actually asked for EMAIL notifaction of names. You think I want to see names posted here?!?
I was interested in names becuase I have both instructor and student friends at OATS. As it turns out I know some of the people involved in the incident.
I also used the incident as material for a brief this morning to óurīPA28 cadets on the importance of lookout.
Iīll keep my nose very much in thank you. And if you are OATS management then I urge you to treat both your life saving instructors very well. The industry is watching.
I think this accident was very serious. I think it is the kind of thing that can happen at any very busy airfield. I think Kiddlington has been perhaps operating slightly above the capacity that would be prudent.
In Jerez we have no more than 3 a/c in circuit at once and any school a/c making an IFR (or simulated) approach results in the visual circuit traffic being held out of circuit. That seems prudent to me.
That said I havenīt flown out of Kidlington.
Definitely an AAIB report to go on the FlightSafety notice board though.
Safe flying,
WWW
Mini Mouse:
No need for names to be put on here- so WWW keep your nose out of it.
Well I actually asked for EMAIL notifaction of names. You think I want to see names posted here?!?
I was interested in names becuase I have both instructor and student friends at OATS. As it turns out I know some of the people involved in the incident.
I also used the incident as material for a brief this morning to óurīPA28 cadets on the importance of lookout.
Iīll keep my nose very much in thank you. And if you are OATS management then I urge you to treat both your life saving instructors very well. The industry is watching.
I think this accident was very serious. I think it is the kind of thing that can happen at any very busy airfield. I think Kiddlington has been perhaps operating slightly above the capacity that would be prudent.
In Jerez we have no more than 3 a/c in circuit at once and any school a/c making an IFR (or simulated) approach results in the visual circuit traffic being held out of circuit. That seems prudent to me.
That said I havenīt flown out of Kidlington.
Definitely an AAIB report to go on the FlightSafety notice board though.
Safe flying,
WWW
Guest
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Mr Wannabeepilot!
I think you must have your head somewhere very dark and smelly
"There but by the grace of God I go" should feature a little higher on your thinking list. If you are truly arrogant enough to think that you are in some way more professional, or have a greater regard for airmanship than these two fellows then we should all pray for your deliverance as you are probably next on the list.
Good Luck and GET REAL!
AR*E !
[This message has been edited by 185 Lbs of Ballast!! (edited 02 June 2000).]
I think you must have your head somewhere very dark and smelly
"There but by the grace of God I go" should feature a little higher on your thinking list. If you are truly arrogant enough to think that you are in some way more professional, or have a greater regard for airmanship than these two fellows then we should all pray for your deliverance as you are probably next on the list.
Good Luck and GET REAL!
AR*E !
[This message has been edited by 185 Lbs of Ballast!! (edited 02 June 2000).]
Guest
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rolling circle
"I can say categorically that I have absolutely no connection with OATS"
So why do you post on almost every OATS thread? Why hold out against a place you have "no connection" with- Just seems a little strange to me. It still amazes me how much you know from your son about the place.
Wee Weasley Welshman- I mis read your request for the names via e-mail. Still I'm sure the FI's don't want idle gossip passed around with their names attached until the AAIB have done their job and released the hard facts.
No- not OATS management- just a humble Student.
"I can say categorically that I have absolutely no connection with OATS"
So why do you post on almost every OATS thread? Why hold out against a place you have "no connection" with- Just seems a little strange to me. It still amazes me how much you know from your son about the place.
Wee Weasley Welshman- I mis read your request for the names via e-mail. Still I'm sure the FI's don't want idle gossip passed around with their names attached until the AAIB have done their job and released the hard facts.
No- not OATS management- just a humble Student.
Guest
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Rolling circles has hit the nail on the head its about time OATS started thinking about quality, safety and reputation and not money money money ! Luckily this time no one was hurt but if they don't get their act together they could be in serious trouble.
Guest
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185 lbs - It's a little difficult to discern exactly what you are trying to say to 'wannabeepilot', perhaps you should wait until you have sobered up next time.
The fact is that both of the instructors involved in this incident were of limited experience and had received minimal orientation instruction at OATS. This, however, is now the norm since the Training Standards system, which is trumpeted on the website, has, in fact, been disbanded.
The fact is that both of the instructors involved in this incident were of limited experience and had received minimal orientation instruction at OATS. This, however, is now the norm since the Training Standards system, which is trumpeted on the website, has, in fact, been disbanded.
Guest
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I think one of the most serious & perhaps partly overlooked fact on this matter was the fact that this incident took place in the open FIR whilst all aircraft were being operated VFR. When I learnt to fly many years ago, and subsequently in a few instructing years, that meant to me to take note of all traffic information given, and if uncertain of any aircraft's position (when both aircraft reported on final at the same time)ask ATC. They are there to provide you answers. I would be very concerned if I was number two to instrument traffic (albeit now VFR) but pressed on towards my final approach not knowing where the preceding aircraft was. That to me is VERY POOR AIRMANSHIP. Remember the pilots in command are "professional" instructors teaching students to be "professional" pilots. Both aircraft involved were very lucky to say the least.
Radar (if it is ever installed at Kidlington) will only be to monitor traffic in IFR procedures, not to spoonfeed these "professional" instructors around a visual circuit.
Lets hope that this incident will bring home the importance of a good lookout. It could have been extremetly tragic. Remember its not only the number of airliners that are increasing, its also GA traffic. Oxford's ATZ is no more "dangerous" than other busy GA airfields, its the people that are within these traffic patterns that present the most danger not only to themselves, but to everyone around them.
Lets hope that a lot of people can say "I learnt about flying from that".
Radar (if it is ever installed at Kidlington) will only be to monitor traffic in IFR procedures, not to spoonfeed these "professional" instructors around a visual circuit.
Lets hope that this incident will bring home the importance of a good lookout. It could have been extremetly tragic. Remember its not only the number of airliners that are increasing, its also GA traffic. Oxford's ATZ is no more "dangerous" than other busy GA airfields, its the people that are within these traffic patterns that present the most danger not only to themselves, but to everyone around them.
Lets hope that a lot of people can say "I learnt about flying from that".