Cabair a wonderful company to work for??
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Cabair a wonderful company to work for??
Looking for some opinions on working for Europes largest group of schools, especially from people who have instructed for this company and a different one, who can offer a comparison.
I've heard that it aint as bad as it used to be!!
All opinions welcome here, or PM me if you prefer!
Thanks,
IH
I've heard that it aint as bad as it used to be!!
All opinions welcome here, or PM me if you prefer!
Thanks,
IH
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Worked for sCabair between 1997-2000. Worst company I have ever worked for and I had worked in many different industries before and after to compare them with. Hopefully they are different now.
Best advice I would give is to slip down to the school that you wanted to work at on a rainy/foggy day and talk to the instructors. Ask them to pull no punches and give their honest opinion.
Only good point is that you will build hours.
Good luck.
Best advice I would give is to slip down to the school that you wanted to work at on a rainy/foggy day and talk to the instructors. Ask them to pull no punches and give their honest opinion.
Only good point is that you will build hours.
Good luck.
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Thanks for that, although I'm more interested in comparing it to other schools than other industries.
It's going to be hard work at any school.
You were there for quite a long time, so surely it can't have been that bad!
IH
It's going to be hard work at any school.
You were there for quite a long time, so surely it can't have been that bad!
IH
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I was there as one of their "sponsored" instructors for the first 2 years then went part time for a year whilst looking for the first airline job.
I compared them with other industries purely because of the way we were treated not for the fact of it being hard work.
I compared them with other industries purely because of the way we were treated not for the fact of it being hard work.
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They were treated all the same really. But you could think that the sponsored guys/girls were tied to a contract whereas a self funded instructor could leave asap. When I was there I knew of a couple of KLMuk sponsored instructors who had enough and left owing grabair money.
Tell me. Are they still sponsoring instructors in cahoots with KLM as well as their own scheme as I havn't really kept an eye on them since I left.
Tell me. Are they still sponsoring instructors in cahoots with KLM as well as their own scheme as I havn't really kept an eye on them since I left.
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I worked for Cabair for 2 years and really enjoyed it. Worked with a good set of instructors and got lots of flying hours. Also the students tend to be well-off with good contacts.
The down side was doing 5 days work for 4 days pay but as the money was so low anyway it didn't make much difference! Employment law can't apply to flying schools. I always considered I was getting paid in flight hours, night hours in particular, I considered, were gold dust.
Management are generally amiable.
Now all the instructors are on flight pay, this is OK as long as you have good weather. I don't think it would be easy to survive the winter without a second job, which of course you are not allowed to have.
Whereas I'm greatful to Cabair for getting my career of the ground as soon as my KLMuk sponsorship ended they did didly-squit to find alternative employment when Ryanair bought Buzz. However this forum forwarned me back in 2000 when I asked a similar question, so that came as no shock. Cabair's only airline partner is FlyBe and quite a few instructors get taken on but they have to be patient.
In summary a good company to start your flying career with, don't stay there too long and don't get jaded.
The down side was doing 5 days work for 4 days pay but as the money was so low anyway it didn't make much difference! Employment law can't apply to flying schools. I always considered I was getting paid in flight hours, night hours in particular, I considered, were gold dust.
Management are generally amiable.
Now all the instructors are on flight pay, this is OK as long as you have good weather. I don't think it would be easy to survive the winter without a second job, which of course you are not allowed to have.
Whereas I'm greatful to Cabair for getting my career of the ground as soon as my KLMuk sponsorship ended they did didly-squit to find alternative employment when Ryanair bought Buzz. However this forum forwarned me back in 2000 when I asked a similar question, so that came as no shock. Cabair's only airline partner is FlyBe and quite a few instructors get taken on but they have to be patient.
In summary a good company to start your flying career with, don't stay there too long and don't get jaded.
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Avoid Cabair with a very, very, very long barge pole!
I worked for them in the early 90's at one of their schools as an instructor. Although the local school's can be fun (apart from Elstree) away from the managment and out the way, you will be treated by the management as dirt.
Their slogan was 'you are only as good as your last months hours', you were always under presssure to fly your students no matter the WX, I used to feel very guilty .....
The management Heathcoat and Reid (Theifcoat and Greed) would sack you if you refused to do petty 'sub jobs' like painting parking lines in the car parks on your days off, refusing would normally involve a 'mangement interview' have cigar smoke blown in your face and then told you are being moved to a cabair school 50 miles from where you are living - loveley.
The management run the place like a boot camp.
Theur were some great people within Cabair, but the management is the worst I have EVER worked for, they treat their staff like dirt.
I worked for them in the early 90's at one of their schools as an instructor. Although the local school's can be fun (apart from Elstree) away from the managment and out the way, you will be treated by the management as dirt.
Their slogan was 'you are only as good as your last months hours', you were always under presssure to fly your students no matter the WX, I used to feel very guilty .....
The management Heathcoat and Reid (Theifcoat and Greed) would sack you if you refused to do petty 'sub jobs' like painting parking lines in the car parks on your days off, refusing would normally involve a 'mangement interview' have cigar smoke blown in your face and then told you are being moved to a cabair school 50 miles from where you are living - loveley.
The management run the place like a boot camp.
Theur were some great people within Cabair, but the management is the worst I have EVER worked for, they treat their staff like dirt.
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Thanks for all the replies so far.
It seems there are mixed opinions.
I get the impression that things are much better than they used to be.
I'm still particularly interested in opinions from those who have taught at Cabair as well as other schools.
IH
It seems there are mixed opinions.
I get the impression that things are much better than they used to be.
I'm still particularly interested in opinions from those who have taught at Cabair as well as other schools.
IH
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Island Hopper -
I have taught at a number of schools .... including Cabair.
Despite my above remarks over Cabairs mangement if you after hours and experience you could do a lot worse. I did about 1000 instructing hours over 2.5 years with them.
A lot depends on the individual schools CFI's personality and how you fit in, at the end of the day the one good thing I would say about Cabair is that they have survived thick and thin when many a school has gone by the way side.
Having worked at a number of other places over the years, nowadays not for hours (I have long since been airlines for 10+ years) but for fun and enjoyment I feel a sense of duty and personal pride to not rip off my students and fly them in all conditions, and do excercises out of sequence just to satisfy a mangemnets desire for revenue. BUT it is a commercial world out there, but I felt Cabair took it 'too far with emphasis on hours' .....
I am very lucky that I now work part time at a place where I make a professional judgment on what my student will gain from flying in the days weather, I would be more likely to be critised at my current school by the CFI for taking people flying in adverse WX ... that just shows how far apart different organisations can be ...
AT the end of the day if you want lots of instructing hours in busy good catchment area flying schools, flying well maintained aircraft (+ve thing about Cabair!) you won't go far wrong with them .....
Good luck!
I have taught at a number of schools .... including Cabair.
Despite my above remarks over Cabairs mangement if you after hours and experience you could do a lot worse. I did about 1000 instructing hours over 2.5 years with them.
A lot depends on the individual schools CFI's personality and how you fit in, at the end of the day the one good thing I would say about Cabair is that they have survived thick and thin when many a school has gone by the way side.
Having worked at a number of other places over the years, nowadays not for hours (I have long since been airlines for 10+ years) but for fun and enjoyment I feel a sense of duty and personal pride to not rip off my students and fly them in all conditions, and do excercises out of sequence just to satisfy a mangemnets desire for revenue. BUT it is a commercial world out there, but I felt Cabair took it 'too far with emphasis on hours' .....
I am very lucky that I now work part time at a place where I make a professional judgment on what my student will gain from flying in the days weather, I would be more likely to be critised at my current school by the CFI for taking people flying in adverse WX ... that just shows how far apart different organisations can be ...
AT the end of the day if you want lots of instructing hours in busy good catchment area flying schools, flying well maintained aircraft (+ve thing about Cabair!) you won't go far wrong with them .....
Good luck!
Last edited by noblues; 11th May 2004 at 22:49.
Meanwhile back in 2004
Cabair is a funny old company to work for, some love it, some hate it and some just try to get on with day to day living. The Heathcote days are gone and for the most part when I was there it was a good place to be compared to other flying schools.
I did three years non-sponsored with them and finished with 1700 odd hours, in that time I can honestly say I was never asked to do any menial jobs that weren't in line with my position and I was never pressured by my CFI to go flying in bad weather, there was one ops manager who used to try it on but a simple no usually ended the conversation. They paid me a salary of GBP850 per month regardless of hours flown, weather, holiday, sickness and if I worked reasonably hard I could earn in excess of that. They were one of the few flying schools to employ people in line with employment law. They also gave me a fairly meagre discount on aircraft hire, but friendly based instructors and examiners meant that I never paid much for my FIC renewal, MEP rating or MEP renewals.
All that is history now as are most of the insights above. They now only employ non-sponsored instructors on a paid-as-you-fly basis (GBP25 per revenue hour). The instructors at the schools now seem to be part-time for the most part and seem to undertake a minimal role in the running of the schools.
Mid-level Management is completely incompetent with some equally amateur directors, but for the most part, unless you are at Elstree, you won't encounter them. There was no real emphasis on hours at my school but we all worked as hard when the flying was available, Cabair priced themselves out of the mass PPL market in 2000 and have never recovered the buisiness. Their policy of leasing in aircraft, paying low lease rates and then fleecing owners on maintainance is resulting in an increasingly tatty fleet outside Elstree and now they have a workforce whose sole motivation for going to work is to get the next hour in their logbook.
I did three years non-sponsored with them and finished with 1700 odd hours, in that time I can honestly say I was never asked to do any menial jobs that weren't in line with my position and I was never pressured by my CFI to go flying in bad weather, there was one ops manager who used to try it on but a simple no usually ended the conversation. They paid me a salary of GBP850 per month regardless of hours flown, weather, holiday, sickness and if I worked reasonably hard I could earn in excess of that. They were one of the few flying schools to employ people in line with employment law. They also gave me a fairly meagre discount on aircraft hire, but friendly based instructors and examiners meant that I never paid much for my FIC renewal, MEP rating or MEP renewals.
All that is history now as are most of the insights above. They now only employ non-sponsored instructors on a paid-as-you-fly basis (GBP25 per revenue hour). The instructors at the schools now seem to be part-time for the most part and seem to undertake a minimal role in the running of the schools.
Mid-level Management is completely incompetent with some equally amateur directors, but for the most part, unless you are at Elstree, you won't encounter them. There was no real emphasis on hours at my school but we all worked as hard when the flying was available, Cabair priced themselves out of the mass PPL market in 2000 and have never recovered the buisiness. Their policy of leasing in aircraft, paying low lease rates and then fleecing owners on maintainance is resulting in an increasingly tatty fleet outside Elstree and now they have a workforce whose sole motivation for going to work is to get the next hour in their logbook.
Last edited by StudentInDebt; 13th May 2004 at 11:55.
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It's A bit of a shame for Cabair I think
I was there for near on 3 years and loved my first 18 months. It really does depend on the staff at the school, We had a great bunch. I'd give the death star(Elstree) a wide birth if I were you, it was oppressive to say the least.
I don't agree with studentindebt over the current instructor’s motives for working there, some of my friends still work there and are well liked, hard working, quality instructors.
As I said, I loved the job, loved the hours and loved getting a half-decent salary(Compared to other schools) for the second best job in the world.
I hear it's all changed though now. Hours are down because they are too expensive and pay as you fly stinks. It's a shame the dustbinman & his other clowns spoilt it all.
At least Uncle Colin was a real aviator!!
I was there for near on 3 years and loved my first 18 months. It really does depend on the staff at the school, We had a great bunch. I'd give the death star(Elstree) a wide birth if I were you, it was oppressive to say the least.
I don't agree with studentindebt over the current instructor’s motives for working there, some of my friends still work there and are well liked, hard working, quality instructors.
As I said, I loved the job, loved the hours and loved getting a half-decent salary(Compared to other schools) for the second best job in the world.
I hear it's all changed though now. Hours are down because they are too expensive and pay as you fly stinks. It's a shame the dustbinman & his other clowns spoilt it all.
At least Uncle Colin was a real aviator!!
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I was one of the unfortunate ones who worked at (h)Elstree under the command of thiefcote and greed. The "ginger binman" was there also with his little "penfold" sidekick (n.a.)who always and probably still has his tongue lodged down the back of his trousers.
Even some of the "personal assistants" thought they were in command. The instructors and the ops staff were all grand. we were all in the same boat-being shafted. But it was a means to an end.
Just as I was leaving they did bring in the minimum wage there, which would have made life more bareable.
If you are thinking of joining scabair, just try and stay away from elstree.
Even some of the "personal assistants" thought they were in command. The instructors and the ops staff were all grand. we were all in the same boat-being shafted. But it was a means to an end.
Just as I was leaving they did bring in the minimum wage there, which would have made life more bareable.
If you are thinking of joining scabair, just try and stay away from elstree.
Honest Frank
the ginger binman is decidely less ginger these days, thiefcote is living it up on Grand Cayman (ever take a look at how much his "other" company made in consultancy fees), Greed is greedier (judging by his waistline), JH has now been made a director and NA has returned for another round of brown-nosing and "surprise" weekend inspections.
ccatfanclub
Some of the new instructors work a full week and care about the job because they know the value of good customer relations when said customer is being robbed blind. My spies inside tell me that most, however, care only about going flying, which is not surprising given the new salary structure. Of course when the next 10% increase in flying rates comes in the instructors will be blamed again and no doubt penalised in some other way.
the ginger binman is decidely less ginger these days, thiefcote is living it up on Grand Cayman (ever take a look at how much his "other" company made in consultancy fees), Greed is greedier (judging by his waistline), JH has now been made a director and NA has returned for another round of brown-nosing and "surprise" weekend inspections.
ccatfanclub
Some of the new instructors work a full week and care about the job because they know the value of good customer relations when said customer is being robbed blind. My spies inside tell me that most, however, care only about going flying, which is not surprising given the new salary structure. Of course when the next 10% increase in flying rates comes in the instructors will be blamed again and no doubt penalised in some other way.
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Now all the instructors are on flight pay, this is OK as long as you have good weather. I don't think it would be easy to survive the winter without a second job, which of course you are not allowed to have.
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Is this true? I was considering instructing part-time but still want to keep my well paid job...
NW
Now all the instructors are on flight pay, this is OK as long as you have good weather. I don't think it would be easy to survive the winter without a second job, which of course you are not allowed to have.
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Is this true? I was considering instructing part-time but still want to keep my well paid job...
NW
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November Whiskey if you do go part time can I have your well paid job!
Went for an interview at Cabair the other day, don't recall anything being said about not being able to have another job e.g. barstaff etc
Perhaps they'll tell me once I sign the contract???
Went for an interview at Cabair the other day, don't recall anything being said about not being able to have another job e.g. barstaff etc
Perhaps they'll tell me once I sign the contract???
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RC
Cheers for the reply...
You can have my current job when I get an airline job...
Which Cabair are you looking to instruct from? Did you do your FI rating with them? I have been told that they give preference to Cabair trained FI's...not sure if that is true or just a cunning ploy to get me to part with more cash or not?
I'm negotiating with my current employer to get time off to do the course and then to work part-time so i can instruct as well...hopefully having the best of both worlds!
Cheers!
NW
Cheers for the reply...
You can have my current job when I get an airline job...
Which Cabair are you looking to instruct from? Did you do your FI rating with them? I have been told that they give preference to Cabair trained FI's...not sure if that is true or just a cunning ploy to get me to part with more cash or not?
I'm negotiating with my current employer to get time off to do the course and then to work part-time so i can instruct as well...hopefully having the best of both worlds!
Cheers!
NW
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Yep, They're right, I was definately frowned upon to have a second job. Especially if it was another flying job. It invalidates our insurance was one pearl of wisdom I once recieved.I'm wondering why this post hasn't gone crazy? Surely there are lots of cabair instructors out there that can contribute.
I'd like the not so ginger dustbinman or his jumped up dragon serectary to contribute too. It's good to hear both sides after all!!
Doing your FIC at another FTO is no bar to employment with Cabair, if you did it elsewhere you used to have to do a 5 hour standardisation course. I stand to be corrected on this but my spies tell me that this has now been abolished and only a successful check flight with the CFI replaces it.
Nearly everyone I know who on the new contract has a "full-time" job, there may still be a restriction on flying for other schools/airlines still though.
Nearly everyone I know who on the new contract has a "full-time" job, there may still be a restriction on flying for other schools/airlines still though.
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True, they did tell me that I have to tell them if I am flying commercially for someone else, but no reference to other work (bar, waiter, escort etc!)
NW Didn't do my FIC at Cabair, interviewing for the Denham position at the moment.
NW Didn't do my FIC at Cabair, interviewing for the Denham position at the moment.