Use of P1/s
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Use of P1/s
When can P1/s be used?
I believe I was told by my CPL examiner that the only use for it was when a flight test was completed sucessfully. If the test was a fail, then the candidate uses p/u.t
For other flights such as club 42 day, 90 day, or the 1hr with instructor per year check rides what should be logged by:
the person sitting in the left hand seat
the instructor?
As an instructor getting paid for doing the check ride, I am entitled to log P1? yes? is that correct, I certainly hope it is, but what about the chap in the left hand seat. I see so many logging it as P1/s. I do tell them that I believe this is wrong, but can't point to any docs to prove this. or maybe I am wrong (again!)
I believe I was told by my CPL examiner that the only use for it was when a flight test was completed sucessfully. If the test was a fail, then the candidate uses p/u.t
For other flights such as club 42 day, 90 day, or the 1hr with instructor per year check rides what should be logged by:
the person sitting in the left hand seat
the instructor?
As an instructor getting paid for doing the check ride, I am entitled to log P1? yes? is that correct, I certainly hope it is, but what about the chap in the left hand seat. I see so many logging it as P1/s. I do tell them that I believe this is wrong, but can't point to any docs to prove this. or maybe I am wrong (again!)
There has been considerable debate over this. You, however, are P1C on any flight requiring your services as a FI. The other person can quite honestly log what the heck they want - but NOT P1C!
Personally I suggest that the other pilot logs P1/S if it went OK, Pu/t if it didn't.
Personally I suggest that the other pilot logs P1/S if it went OK, Pu/t if it didn't.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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If you want a reference, point your students towards LASORS, section A, appendix 1. (I think that's right, but my installation of Adobe Acrobat isn't working at the moment so I can't download LASORS to check it.) This contains a list of the various different ways of logging flight time.
It only lists two times you can log P1/S. One, as you say, as a successful flight test for the grant of a license or rating in accordance with JARs. The other is a co-pilot acting as captain under the supervision of the captain. Since you can't have a co-pilot on a single-pilot aircraft, this doesn't apply.
The reason there is so much debate about the types of flight you are asking about is because they are not listed in the table. Assuming that P1/S isn't an option, you have two choices:
1) Your student (the person in the left hand seat) logs PUT, you log P1. You are captain, so you make any command decisions.
2) Your student logs P1, and you are a passenger and can't log the flight. There are plenty of instructors who are happy to do this, but since you are nothing more than a passenger, you can't do any more than advise your student if you don't agree with the command decisions which he is making.
This decision obviously needs to be made before the flight, because who is in charge is not something you want to be discussing in an emergency.
There is an argument which says that your students should log P1/S rather than PUT in the first case. After all, neither is listed in LASORS, so neither is more correct than the other. I don't really have a good counter-argument to that, other than, if it comes down to it (e.g. applying for a license with absolute minimum time, or an insurance claim) I'd rather err on the side of caution. I shouldn't think there are many people who are so desperate for the extra hour or three of P1 time that it's worth taking the risk of logging the time as P1/S when this isn't sanctioned.
FFF
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Edit - have now got Adobe Acrobat working, and checked my reference. Sorry - I got it wrong, it's actually Section A, Appendix B. Page 40 of LASORS, which can be found (confusingly) on page 56 of 610 in this document
It only lists two times you can log P1/S. One, as you say, as a successful flight test for the grant of a license or rating in accordance with JARs. The other is a co-pilot acting as captain under the supervision of the captain. Since you can't have a co-pilot on a single-pilot aircraft, this doesn't apply.
The reason there is so much debate about the types of flight you are asking about is because they are not listed in the table. Assuming that P1/S isn't an option, you have two choices:
1) Your student (the person in the left hand seat) logs PUT, you log P1. You are captain, so you make any command decisions.
2) Your student logs P1, and you are a passenger and can't log the flight. There are plenty of instructors who are happy to do this, but since you are nothing more than a passenger, you can't do any more than advise your student if you don't agree with the command decisions which he is making.
This decision obviously needs to be made before the flight, because who is in charge is not something you want to be discussing in an emergency.
There is an argument which says that your students should log P1/S rather than PUT in the first case. After all, neither is listed in LASORS, so neither is more correct than the other. I don't really have a good counter-argument to that, other than, if it comes down to it (e.g. applying for a license with absolute minimum time, or an insurance claim) I'd rather err on the side of caution. I shouldn't think there are many people who are so desperate for the extra hour or three of P1 time that it's worth taking the risk of logging the time as P1/S when this isn't sanctioned.
FFF
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Edit - have now got Adobe Acrobat working, and checked my reference. Sorry - I got it wrong, it's actually Section A, Appendix B. Page 40 of LASORS, which can be found (confusingly) on page 56 of 610 in this document
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It can matter - I remember someone on Wannabes who had his CPL application rejected by the CAA because he counted club checkout rides a P1/s and included the hours in the P1 column. The CAA just recounted them as Pu/t - and without those P1 hours he didn't have enough for licence issue.
Saying that, I reckon that it's very rare to be that marginal for licence issue (or I guess renewal), so most of the time it (probably!) doesn't much matter.
Saying that, I reckon that it's very rare to be that marginal for licence issue (or I guess renewal), so most of the time it (probably!) doesn't much matter.
Last edited by Evo; 24th Apr 2004 at 08:26.
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This old chestnut. According to the belgrano P1/S is ONLY for succesful flight tests. Any checkout should be P/UT.
I've heard differing things from the CAA, but I always err on the side of caution when it comes to logging hours. Stick it down as P/UT and you will get no arguments. Evo's example shows what could happen. Not funny.
I've heard differing things from the CAA, but I always err on the side of caution when it comes to logging hours. Stick it down as P/UT and you will get no arguments. Evo's example shows what could happen. Not funny.
