Instructor ratings for PPL/NPPL licence holders
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Instructor ratings for PPL/NPPL licence holders
What do readers think of the idea that PPL/NPPL holders should be able to obtain an instructor rating to teach PPL/NPPL students? This without the enormous cost of going through the JAR-FCL instructor requirements.
After all, the NPPL is a national licence so perhaps we could have the same for an instructor rating.
Remember that those who held a valid PPL plus instructor rating were granted an BCPL, without any further examination, under grandfather rights back in the late 1980's when the new licence was introduced.
Is it time to put the clock back?
After all, the NPPL is a national licence so perhaps we could have the same for an instructor rating.
Remember that those who held a valid PPL plus instructor rating were granted an BCPL, without any further examination, under grandfather rights back in the late 1980's when the new licence was introduced.
Is it time to put the clock back?
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No, no and no again. Do you want to destroy the noble but badly paid profession of instructing ?
Would you like to see the people that instructed you and showed you how to fly cast onto the scapheap whilst non-professionals with a good heart but a 'hobby' mentality reduce the skill levels even further.
In the UK we have managed to destroy( amongst others) the steel, car, motorbike, shoe, carpet industries.....hey lets add instructing in the UK as well.
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No, no and no again. Do you want to destroy the noble but badly paid profession of instructing ?
Would you like to see the people that instructed you and showed you how to fly cast onto the scapheap whilst non-professionals with a good heart but a 'hobby' mentality reduce the skill levels even further.
In the UK we have managed to destroy( amongst others) the steel, car, motorbike, shoe, carpet industries.....hey lets add instructing in the UK as well.
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Drizzle,
Whilst you are possibly correct with respect of unpaid instructors, that wasn't (I think) what GKEST was referring to.
Like many reading these forums I started out instructing on a ppl, for which you were allowed to get paid prior to 1988 and the introduction of the BCPL. Looking back to those times and looking at what is happening now I see no real difference in the standard of instruction at the club which I was (and still am) associated with. However, I accept that others may have different experiences, of course.
Is there any evidence that the standard of instruction at PPL level in the UK is improved by the instructor having a detailed theoretical knowledge of world climatology or the workings of an inertial navigation system?
Personally I believe the answer is no, and that an instructor holding a PPL and IMC rating is perfectly capable of instructing to PPL level if they are competent in handling light aircraft and have been through a suitable instructors course - indeed for some exercises, aerobatics and tailwheel training spring to mind - the commercial written exams or flight test have absolutely no relevance.
That said I admit that for the IMC rating I probably wasn't really ready to start teaching it when I did, and for more advanced ratings an IR and some experience of IMC operations will make the instructors life a lot easier, and improve the quality of instruction received by the student.
Whilst you are possibly correct with respect of unpaid instructors, that wasn't (I think) what GKEST was referring to.
Like many reading these forums I started out instructing on a ppl, for which you were allowed to get paid prior to 1988 and the introduction of the BCPL. Looking back to those times and looking at what is happening now I see no real difference in the standard of instruction at the club which I was (and still am) associated with. However, I accept that others may have different experiences, of course.
Is there any evidence that the standard of instruction at PPL level in the UK is improved by the instructor having a detailed theoretical knowledge of world climatology or the workings of an inertial navigation system?
Personally I believe the answer is no, and that an instructor holding a PPL and IMC rating is perfectly capable of instructing to PPL level if they are competent in handling light aircraft and have been through a suitable instructors course - indeed for some exercises, aerobatics and tailwheel training spring to mind - the commercial written exams or flight test have absolutely no relevance.
That said I admit that for the IMC rating I probably wasn't really ready to start teaching it when I did, and for more advanced ratings an IR and some experience of IMC operations will make the instructors life a lot easier, and improve the quality of instruction received by the student.
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Of the 1000 or so NPPLs, 50% are microlight pilots who can instruct on the NPPL albeit with an "exemption" rather than an instructor rating, becuse the powers that be screwed up the ANO amendment.
Of the 500 or so SEP NPPLs 95% are there because they can't get a Class 2 medical; a number of them are already experienced instructors! The question is, should they be allowed to instruct ab-initio students without an appropriate medical certificate?
We are now left with a handfull of ab-initio NPPL holders who supposedly took the cheap option,! The cost of gaining the relevant experience plus a FI course is the same regardless of licence type. The "enormous" financial saving by not having to pass the CPL written exams, would amount to less than 5% of the total cost.
Of the 500 or so SEP NPPLs 95% are there because they can't get a Class 2 medical; a number of them are already experienced instructors! The question is, should they be allowed to instruct ab-initio students without an appropriate medical certificate?
We are now left with a handfull of ab-initio NPPL holders who supposedly took the cheap option,! The cost of gaining the relevant experience plus a FI course is the same regardless of licence type. The "enormous" financial saving by not having to pass the CPL written exams, would amount to less than 5% of the total cost.
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A couple of thoughts spring to mind. Firstly, I do think that the CPL flying training does sharpen you up post-PPL, in both skills and attiude (mental, not aeroplane!). Secondly, would there be much call for it? In my experience almost everyone opts to do the JAR PPL. At my school there is very little take-up for the NPPL.
Regards, GT.
Regards, GT.
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Thanks for the input. Now for a few comments -
"drizzle" - when I did my PPL training back in 1957 all three of the QFI's held PPL's. Two RAF CFS graduates and one USAF graduate. They instruction they gave was highly professional.
"excrab" - we are on the same wavelength - thanks.
"StrateandLevel" - loved the spelling but I did not say only NPPL holders but included any PPL, JAR-FCL or NPPL so that increases the potential numbers to an enormous extent.
"GT" - Prior to the BCPL intending FIC students had to pass a pre-entry ground exam and a flight evaluation with either an FIC instructor or an FIE. Believe me that sharpened them up as they could not start their FIC without being recommended as a result of their success.
Perhaps I should give a few more personal details, I have over 9,000 hours as instructor, was an FIC instructor since 1970 and an FIE since 1972. I held a professional licence from 1969 until I had a health problem in 1999. I now have an NPPL(SEP) and just love my flying.
Remuneration was possible for a PPL instructor under the old system prior to the BCPL in 1988 - why not again?
Do please keep this thread going since I am keen to guage the valued opinions of as wide a cross section of instructors as possible. Perhaps you could draw it to the attention of other instructors.
"drizzle" - when I did my PPL training back in 1957 all three of the QFI's held PPL's. Two RAF CFS graduates and one USAF graduate. They instruction they gave was highly professional.
"excrab" - we are on the same wavelength - thanks.
"StrateandLevel" - loved the spelling but I did not say only NPPL holders but included any PPL, JAR-FCL or NPPL so that increases the potential numbers to an enormous extent.
"GT" - Prior to the BCPL intending FIC students had to pass a pre-entry ground exam and a flight evaluation with either an FIC instructor or an FIE. Believe me that sharpened them up as they could not start their FIC without being recommended as a result of their success.
Perhaps I should give a few more personal details, I have over 9,000 hours as instructor, was an FIC instructor since 1970 and an FIE since 1972. I held a professional licence from 1969 until I had a health problem in 1999. I now have an NPPL(SEP) and just love my flying.
Remuneration was possible for a PPL instructor under the old system prior to the BCPL in 1988 - why not again?
Do please keep this thread going since I am keen to guage the valued opinions of as wide a cross section of instructors as possible. Perhaps you could draw it to the attention of other instructors.
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I don't agree with having to pass the CPL written exams before being allowed to start an instructors course. While some of the information is relevent much of it isn't. If particular knowledge is required to be a good instructor then I think this should be part of the instructors course.
The cost of the CPL writtens is no longer trivial. I took the CAA exams five years ago, and I am now taking the JAR version of the CPL writtens so I am in a position to compare the cost. The cost has risen enormously. The cheapest route (distance learning) now costs well over £2000 assuming first-time passes in every subject, and the cost of an instructor rating course has risen to nearly £5000. So the cost of the CPL writtens is now of the order of 30% of the total cost of getting an instructor rating.
The cost of the CPL writtens is no longer trivial. I took the CAA exams five years ago, and I am now taking the JAR version of the CPL writtens so I am in a position to compare the cost. The cost has risen enormously. The cheapest route (distance learning) now costs well over £2000 assuming first-time passes in every subject, and the cost of an instructor rating course has risen to nearly £5000. So the cost of the CPL writtens is now of the order of 30% of the total cost of getting an instructor rating.
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I think bringing back the FI rating on a PPL without doing the CPL exams (you can have an FI rating on a PPL but have to have done the CPL exams) would do wonders for the club flying scene. No longer would we have the seemingly endless lines of miserable instructors only interested in hour building for the jet job. We would have people who are career instructors interested in the students and there progression.
Having been through the CPL/IR route I totally agree that that 90% of the things learnt have no relevance on teaching ab initio adn club type flyers. When I first learnt to fly I learnt in microlights whose instructors do not a hold a CPL and the quality of Instruction was simply outstanding. I was taught by a guy who was a career instructor and his example set me up for a life of addiction to flying. On converting to SEP I flew with a bunch of different instructors and the difference in attitudes between the hours builders and the career guys was vast. The hours builders would try and make me feel that I should be honoured to sit next to an "airline pilot", the 10,000hr career instructor TAUGHT me.
It was the curiosity of seeing if these "airline pilots" were as good as they though they were that set me in on the CPL/IR road and guess what theres nothing special there!!
Before any one says anything I have no desire to teach or work as a "proper pilot"!!
Having been through the CPL/IR route I totally agree that that 90% of the things learnt have no relevance on teaching ab initio adn club type flyers. When I first learnt to fly I learnt in microlights whose instructors do not a hold a CPL and the quality of Instruction was simply outstanding. I was taught by a guy who was a career instructor and his example set me up for a life of addiction to flying. On converting to SEP I flew with a bunch of different instructors and the difference in attitudes between the hours builders and the career guys was vast. The hours builders would try and make me feel that I should be honoured to sit next to an "airline pilot", the 10,000hr career instructor TAUGHT me.
It was the curiosity of seeing if these "airline pilots" were as good as they though they were that set me in on the CPL/IR road and guess what theres nothing special there!!
Before any one says anything I have no desire to teach or work as a "proper pilot"!!
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Come on folks - I expected a much bigger response from the examiners and instructors than this. Or is it that many of you do remember the good old days? It certainly seems that so-called professionalism in the shape of BCPL's and now JAR-FCL CPL's have not done much to improve the salary level of FI and examiners in the last 19 years. When I left a club to join the CAA in 1984 I was on an annual salary of over £14K and many of you are still not earning this in 2003 with all the inflationary pressures since then. Putting the clock back is possible - we just have to make it happen despite the reactionary forces that will come out of the woodwork. The very future of GA depends on it.
G-KEST, if you were on a salary at a club and now hold just a NPPL, presumably you are no longer able to hold a JAA Class 1 or 2 medical certificate? If you can hold a Class 2, then you could instruct without remuneration on a JAR-FCL PPL(A). But if you can hold neither Class 1 nor Class 2, perhaps the wisdom of instructing ab-initios might be open to question by some?
I too regret the passing of the BCPL/FI which only needed a UK Class 2 medical; for that you have your erstwhile fellow Belgranists to thank......
I too regret the passing of the BCPL/FI which only needed a UK Class 2 medical; for that you have your erstwhile fellow Belgranists to thank......
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Ye old Instructors
Sadly the world has changed!
The current demand on an Instructor to pass at minimum the JAACPL exams which cost between £2000 and £3000 for what is now a mandatory course. The far more stringent demands of an Instructor Course Approval also means that the cost of doing an Instructor rating amounts to another bill circa £5000, on par with training for a commercial licence, has unfortunately meant the demise of the 'club Instructor' due to a total cost of £8,000 to £10,000.
The 'club Instructors' may have been, in the past, a local wanting to turn their 'days off' flying into more than just a hobby or perhaps a retired military or airline pilot. the mix was great. Even the retiring military guy must nowadays pass the CPL exams and do the full Instructor course (BEagle correct me here if i'm wrong) so they don't.
Unfortunately the young potential commercial pilot is already into so much debt by the time they make instructor that they quite understandably need more money than most clubs can pay. What a miserable state of affairs.
Like it or hate it, what can be paid to an Instructor is what the PPL student can cough up, so we have an irresolvable dilemna.
We have in the UK within Europe, other than perhaps France, the most comprehensive tradition of flying training CLUB networks. We are slowly forgetting the 'CLUB' and what that means.
In my boopk these future airline pilots with Instructor Ratings always wingeing about wages within these columns, should see the bargain. They get experience and 'hours, and their fellow club members gain the PPL. Seems fair to me.
The Flying clubs with few exceptions will never be able to pay their (the potential airline pilot) loans. Like so many are already suggesting we need dedicated instructor knowledge exams to compliment the flying course. However we cannot go back to the old requirements where thew knowledge level of the 150 hour PPL Instructor was often dreadful but we do need the dedicated Flying Instructor back to lead and enrich the team.
The current demand on an Instructor to pass at minimum the JAACPL exams which cost between £2000 and £3000 for what is now a mandatory course. The far more stringent demands of an Instructor Course Approval also means that the cost of doing an Instructor rating amounts to another bill circa £5000, on par with training for a commercial licence, has unfortunately meant the demise of the 'club Instructor' due to a total cost of £8,000 to £10,000.
The 'club Instructors' may have been, in the past, a local wanting to turn their 'days off' flying into more than just a hobby or perhaps a retired military or airline pilot. the mix was great. Even the retiring military guy must nowadays pass the CPL exams and do the full Instructor course (BEagle correct me here if i'm wrong) so they don't.
Unfortunately the young potential commercial pilot is already into so much debt by the time they make instructor that they quite understandably need more money than most clubs can pay. What a miserable state of affairs.
Like it or hate it, what can be paid to an Instructor is what the PPL student can cough up, so we have an irresolvable dilemna.
We have in the UK within Europe, other than perhaps France, the most comprehensive tradition of flying training CLUB networks. We are slowly forgetting the 'CLUB' and what that means.
In my boopk these future airline pilots with Instructor Ratings always wingeing about wages within these columns, should see the bargain. They get experience and 'hours, and their fellow club members gain the PPL. Seems fair to me.
The Flying clubs with few exceptions will never be able to pay their (the potential airline pilot) loans. Like so many are already suggesting we need dedicated instructor knowledge exams to compliment the flying course. However we cannot go back to the old requirements where thew knowledge level of the 150 hour PPL Instructor was often dreadful but we do need the dedicated Flying Instructor back to lead and enrich the team.
Very true. But whilst their seems to be an emerging prejudice in some areas against 'hours builders', where else are they going to build experience unless they stooge up and down Space Coast in clapped-out C150s? However, I really question the motives behind some FIC organisations who churn out very poor FI(R)s with the minimum hours purely as a revenue stream.
The ex-mil guys with >2000 hours TT, 1000 as P1C and 500 as P1 who have been QFIs at some time can get considerable credit towards an ATPL or CPL and FI rating, depending on their background and recency. Few seem to bother due to their disinclination to pay for flying! E.g. if they're current on the VC10/TriStar/C-17/C130/Nimrod etc and have the hours I mentioned above, they just need to have their military IR observed by a CAA examiner, get a Class 1 medical, pass ATPL air law, pay the dosh and fill in the form and an ATPL/IR is theirs for the asking.....
The ex-mil guys with >2000 hours TT, 1000 as P1C and 500 as P1 who have been QFIs at some time can get considerable credit towards an ATPL or CPL and FI rating, depending on their background and recency. Few seem to bother due to their disinclination to pay for flying! E.g. if they're current on the VC10/TriStar/C-17/C130/Nimrod etc and have the hours I mentioned above, they just need to have their military IR observed by a CAA examiner, get a Class 1 medical, pass ATPL air law, pay the dosh and fill in the form and an ATPL/IR is theirs for the asking.....
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Personally I question the judegement of anyone in the current climate who gets themselves 50-60K in debt with no work out there. Isn't flying about good judegement?
I have said it before, the old school of Instructors teaching for the pleasure of teaching and not for the first opportunity of an airline job are often the better bet. So why not have "club instructors"?
I have said it before, the old school of Instructors teaching for the pleasure of teaching and not for the first opportunity of an airline job are often the better bet. So why not have "club instructors"?
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Glad to see that the thread continues to attract response. All is possible given the support it deserves. The FIC for those who wish to teach for the NPPL(SEP) could be far shorter and therefor cheaper than that for the JAR-PPL. The ground subjects would be those for the NPPL, not for the JAR-PPL with knowledge indicators, remember those, set at a higher level as should be the case. The privilidges of the NPPL(SEP) are limited, so should the level of the ground exams. Make no mistake this is going to happen. Our average age of pilots in GA is inexorably rising. Why? The cost, the cost, the cost and to some extent only, the complexity.
In the mean time I would like to wish everyone a very Happy Christmas and a safe and, if possible, prosperous New Year in 2004. Cheers.
Trapper 69
In the mean time I would like to wish everyone a very Happy Christmas and a safe and, if possible, prosperous New Year in 2004. Cheers.
Trapper 69
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Response to comment by BEagle - Not all CAA SRG FSO's get the frontal lobotomy as a part of the induction process. Often there is internal consultation where the occasional dissenting voices can be detected, often at the cost of promotion prospects. In particular the JAR-FCL process was hotly debated inside the grey walls with considerable weight given to the enormous cost increases implicit in the proposals. Nevertheless it went ahead - with considerable support from, perhaps, the leading GA representative body whose representation through IAOPA within the JAA system fully supported the inclusion of private aviation within the process when it could have been restricted to commercial aviation. Result is the awful mess we now find ourselves. just how many folk who come through the doors of your FTO's really have any ambition to progress beyond a PPL? Precious few I reckon apart from those limited number who see a vision of a highly remunerated career in the airlines and eventually find themselves up to their ears in debt or, even worse, just well paid bus drivers for the low cost airlines. Ah well - tempus fugit.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
Cheers,
Trapper 69
Hi G-KEST.
Intersting that you should say "In particular the JAR-FCL process was hotly debated inside the grey walls with considerable weight given to the enormous cost increases implicit in the proposals" as many of us also pointed this out in the RIA. Quite frankly the document was utterly scandalous and contained outrageous lies - and no-one accepted our protestations. DP knew from the road shows that the GA PPL community was outraged, but had his way and forced us into the current mess. Hence the need for the NPPL - industry's way of trying to make good the enormous damage wrought by the CAA on the PPL world.
It'll be interesting to see how many people apply for PPL re-issue next year when the first of the non-lifetime JAR-FCL PPLs reaches its expiry date. Another point which DP brushed off as being of little consequence....
Or perhaps they'll just go for a lifetime NPPL instead??
Intersting that you should say "In particular the JAR-FCL process was hotly debated inside the grey walls with considerable weight given to the enormous cost increases implicit in the proposals" as many of us also pointed this out in the RIA. Quite frankly the document was utterly scandalous and contained outrageous lies - and no-one accepted our protestations. DP knew from the road shows that the GA PPL community was outraged, but had his way and forced us into the current mess. Hence the need for the NPPL - industry's way of trying to make good the enormous damage wrought by the CAA on the PPL world.
It'll be interesting to see how many people apply for PPL re-issue next year when the first of the non-lifetime JAR-FCL PPLs reaches its expiry date. Another point which DP brushed off as being of little consequence....
Or perhaps they'll just go for a lifetime NPPL instead??
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Response to BEagle - I had long retired when the JAR-FCL RIA was published. If you would send me a private email I will return it with my RIA response which was absolutely blistering. The guy who wrote it is a friend but he was given an impossible task by Payton who must have fumed at my demolition job. I did lay down the inevitable structure for the present NPPL(SEP) in my letter which was to some extent hijacked by a couple of associations but you can see for yourself if you would like to. Hell has no fury like a CAA pensioner spurned by his former employer.!
Cheers,
Trapper 69
PS - Had a gorgeous if turbulent trip today in the Skybolt. Made my best landing in 2003 so have decided not to risk another trip this year...............!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cheers,
Trapper 69
PS - Had a gorgeous if turbulent trip today in the Skybolt. Made my best landing in 2003 so have decided not to risk another trip this year...............!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Usually no one sees the good one - but everyone sees the bad..!
Thanks for both plaudit and retribution - today is lousy outside so no chance of blotting my copybook again - just one more to go.
Trapper 69
Thanks for both plaudit and retribution - today is lousy outside so no chance of blotting my copybook again - just one more to go.
Trapper 69
G-KEST - Sorry for the delay; thanks for your PM. I couldn't believe that such a fundamentally inaccurate RIA got through the system; I guess Mulley had other things to worry about?
Anyway, the NPPL Policy and Steering Committee won't be dismissing any option; however, since the 'upgrade to JAR-FCL' route requires that a pilot has had a minimum number of hours under the instruction of a JAR-FCL FI, the demand for purely 'NPPL' qualified FIs teaching at NPPL level for the SEP aircraft rating would be pretty small. As would their remuneration, were it to be sanctioned. There are a lot of FIs chasing not many jobs at the moment; were the floodgates to be opened to 'ease' instructional and/or licensing requirements, there would doubtless be a very hostile reception to the associated RIA from those already seeking instructional posts!
Currently the NPPL P&SC is attempting to unscramble the dog's dinner which is the current ANO as pertaining to the NPPL. It was the result of a mistake within the Authority; unfortunately a 'temporary' AIC will have to be released in early 2004 to cover the next few months until we get the ANO correctly amended as agreed by the Committee.
Anyway, the NPPL Policy and Steering Committee won't be dismissing any option; however, since the 'upgrade to JAR-FCL' route requires that a pilot has had a minimum number of hours under the instruction of a JAR-FCL FI, the demand for purely 'NPPL' qualified FIs teaching at NPPL level for the SEP aircraft rating would be pretty small. As would their remuneration, were it to be sanctioned. There are a lot of FIs chasing not many jobs at the moment; were the floodgates to be opened to 'ease' instructional and/or licensing requirements, there would doubtless be a very hostile reception to the associated RIA from those already seeking instructional posts!
Currently the NPPL P&SC is attempting to unscramble the dog's dinner which is the current ANO as pertaining to the NPPL. It was the result of a mistake within the Authority; unfortunately a 'temporary' AIC will have to be released in early 2004 to cover the next few months until we get the ANO correctly amended as agreed by the Committee.