Examiners' responsibilities?
Thread Starter
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 27,398
Likes: 857
From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Examiners' responsibilities?
I am quite surprised at the number of PPL applicants who ask questions on PPRuNe about hours needed and other training requirements after passing their Skill Tests. Surely it's the Flight Examiner who conducted the test should have checked that the applicant was eligible to take the test before conducting it?
Personally I charge £150 for conducting a Skill Test, but for that the applicant gets a full review of all paperwork both before and after the test. If he/she hasn't got the requisite hours (unlikely, I agree) before the test, then I won't do the test. But that means the applicant must present an up-to-date personal flying logbook for me to check whilst he/she's doing the nav planning!
Are some FEs really so callous that they just take the money, do the test, fill out the report and that's it? If so, then no wonder so many PPL applications get spat out for paperwork errors....
Surely it's a part of our contract with the applicant to ensure that he/she has got everything prepared to send off to the CAA - just the odd signature needed? That way hopefully we might find the waiting time for licence issue starting to decrease?
Personally I charge £150 for conducting a Skill Test, but for that the applicant gets a full review of all paperwork both before and after the test. If he/she hasn't got the requisite hours (unlikely, I agree) before the test, then I won't do the test. But that means the applicant must present an up-to-date personal flying logbook for me to check whilst he/she's doing the nav planning!
Are some FEs really so callous that they just take the money, do the test, fill out the report and that's it? If so, then no wonder so many PPL applications get spat out for paperwork errors....
Surely it's a part of our contract with the applicant to ensure that he/she has got everything prepared to send off to the CAA - just the odd signature needed? That way hopefully we might find the waiting time for licence issue starting to decrease?
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
From: Somewhere in Southern England
BEagle, I agree wholeheartedly.
I believe that it is the responsibility of the student’s instructor to ensure that the student has met the requirements prior to submitting the student for test.
However the examiner has an even greater responsibility. He/she should undertake a detailed examination of all of the paperwork to ensure that every last piece is in order and that every single requirement has been met and can clearly be seen to have been met. After all we have around an hour, whilst the student is preparing for the nav section of the Skill Test, in which to undertake this task. Most of us charge around £150 for the test and the student should expect value for his money. After the student has passed the Skill Test the examiner has a further responsibility to ensure that the student is absolutely clear about what paperwork should be submitted with the application.
I feel that I have failed in my duty as an examiner if there is any legitimate query from the CAA about a PPL application from a student whom I have tested. I have developed my own simple PPL application checklist, based on the one that the CAA used to provide for the CAA PPL, which I utilise to ensure that I have not overlooked anything and which I suggest that the student submits as part of his/her application since it clearly identifies the fulfilment of each of the requirements for the PPL.
I believe that it is the responsibility of the student’s instructor to ensure that the student has met the requirements prior to submitting the student for test.
However the examiner has an even greater responsibility. He/she should undertake a detailed examination of all of the paperwork to ensure that every last piece is in order and that every single requirement has been met and can clearly be seen to have been met. After all we have around an hour, whilst the student is preparing for the nav section of the Skill Test, in which to undertake this task. Most of us charge around £150 for the test and the student should expect value for his money. After the student has passed the Skill Test the examiner has a further responsibility to ensure that the student is absolutely clear about what paperwork should be submitted with the application.
I feel that I have failed in my duty as an examiner if there is any legitimate query from the CAA about a PPL application from a student whom I have tested. I have developed my own simple PPL application checklist, based on the one that the CAA used to provide for the CAA PPL, which I utilise to ensure that I have not overlooked anything and which I suggest that the student submits as part of his/her application since it clearly identifies the fulfilment of each of the requirements for the PPL.
Joined: Aug 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL(H)
Posts: 345
Likes: 2
From: UK
As a CFI, I check student records and sign the course completion certificate on the PPL application before the student does the test. After the test, I certify the student's logbook. So far, so good, with no bounces from the Belgrano.
A commercial student must present himself for test with a Form 170A, which is, for the uninitiated, is a declaration by an auhorised signatory that the candidate has completed course flying and is, in the signatory's opinion, fit to undertake the test. IMHO, it is a courtesy of the FTO/RTF to extend the same paper cover to the PPL student and FE with the course completion certificate signed off.
So, as an FE, I will take on trust a signed course completion certificate. However, I will want to see a log book and would expect to discuss application paperwork with student and instructor following debrief. The examiner's fee, as BEagle suggests, is not merely for a flight test, but includes time on preparation, briefing, debriefing, admin and travel: which is why FE's are advised by the CAA that no more than 2 Licence Skills tests should be undertaken in one day.
And whilst we are in the subject area..
LOG BOOKS
....are so often scrappy and incomplete, particularly running totals page-to-page and missing exercise numbers / nav turning points etc. FIs should be teaching students how to keep a proper logbook and checking from time to time, shouldn't they? Or are people, as BEagle suggests, taking their (meagre) instructional money and running?
A commercial student must present himself for test with a Form 170A, which is, for the uninitiated, is a declaration by an auhorised signatory that the candidate has completed course flying and is, in the signatory's opinion, fit to undertake the test. IMHO, it is a courtesy of the FTO/RTF to extend the same paper cover to the PPL student and FE with the course completion certificate signed off.
So, as an FE, I will take on trust a signed course completion certificate. However, I will want to see a log book and would expect to discuss application paperwork with student and instructor following debrief. The examiner's fee, as BEagle suggests, is not merely for a flight test, but includes time on preparation, briefing, debriefing, admin and travel: which is why FE's are advised by the CAA that no more than 2 Licence Skills tests should be undertaken in one day.
And whilst we are in the subject area..
LOG BOOKS
....are so often scrappy and incomplete, particularly running totals page-to-page and missing exercise numbers / nav turning points etc. FIs should be teaching students how to keep a proper logbook and checking from time to time, shouldn't they? Or are people, as BEagle suggests, taking their (meagre) instructional money and running?
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
From: UK
One suggestion I operate to overcome some of the log book issues, is after having briefied the new student about the importance of the log book etc, I oversee the first few entries and ask them to show it to me when they reach the end of each page. We can then check the page totals together and verify the log book entries match the training notes.
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,092
Likes: 10
From: uk
I always had the student fill out the logbook initially in pencil, so that the method and early totals are correct.
Hopefully the candidates CFI has already checked his students logbook and paperwork is correct before the examiner sees it.
The examiner is not always the candidates CFI.
Hopefully the candidates CFI has already checked his students logbook and paperwork is correct before the examiner sees it.
The examiner is not always the candidates CFI.
