Should Instructors recieve les then minimum wage?
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Ludwig is absolutely spot on- and has hit the spot! You can't buck the market and that's a fact. Hands up all those who would fly for food only! Lets face it, the choice for pilots wanting to build hours for the first airline job is either to instruct or actually pay for airplane rental and it seems that instructing is indeed a cheap way to build hours. Downright tough on career instructors but that's the way of the market. 
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Ludwig, don't worry mate, I will not name call you. However I believe the question was, "should they be paid les(less) then (than) min wage?"(Hey I cant type for crap either) It was not a "winge" about how poorly they get paid blah blah blah.. And you say people should get paid what they are worth? Well what about legislation that says, "no they will be paid x amount"? Have you tried to live of 12k a year. Ok yes they should have thought before starting their training about how they were going to live while they hour built etc. But nobody told me that side of the soggy sandwich when I wanted to start training. No no they said sweet fa about that. Just sign here here and here and hey presto.. The Industry and government should be looking after all workers regardless of what line of work they might be in. Buy the time someone gives you a job you deserve to be treated the same as anyone else. Yep they maywell just have to slog it out for a while to get to the better paid end of the spectrum but this is exactly what the min wage act is for. Its all about the law folks.
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.. "The Industry and government should be looking after all workers regardless of what line of work they might be in."
er why? Industry is there to make a profit for its’ owners not as a support system for workers. No one particularly in the flying world, is forced to do anything – it’s a two way street, if the situation is intolerable, leave, do something else, set your own school up. Do not lose sight of the fact that as an employee your only function is to make money for your company owner, nothing else, nothing less.
er why? Industry is there to make a profit for its’ owners not as a support system for workers. No one particularly in the flying world, is forced to do anything – it’s a two way street, if the situation is intolerable, leave, do something else, set your own school up. Do not lose sight of the fact that as an employee your only function is to make money for your company owner, nothing else, nothing less.
The Original Whirly
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Whether there should be a minimum wage, and whether the government should make sure people have enough to live on, is a different issue. The point is that in the UK right now we DO have a minimum wage. And that being so, instructors should not morally be paid less than that. They probably legally shouldn't either, but I daresay that depends on lots of things, like whether they're officially self-employed/employee, full/part time, etc. One day some enterprising instructor will test it, and if he gets sacked for doing so, he'll take his employer to an industrial tribunal. When that happens, I'll watch with interest.
Until then? Is Ludwig right; does anyone have a God-given right to a decent wage? Why don't dissatisfied instructors leave and become plumbers and get better paid; there's a desperate shortage? If they want to hourbuild to get airline jobs, why complain at getting paid anything at all? OTOH, we need decent instrutors, and without a decent wage, no-one can afford to be a career instructor.
All these points are worthy of discussion. Discussion, not name calling. Maybe some people here need to grow up...preferably before they start instructing!!
Until then? Is Ludwig right; does anyone have a God-given right to a decent wage? Why don't dissatisfied instructors leave and become plumbers and get better paid; there's a desperate shortage? If they want to hourbuild to get airline jobs, why complain at getting paid anything at all? OTOH, we need decent instrutors, and without a decent wage, no-one can afford to be a career instructor.
All these points are worthy of discussion. Discussion, not name calling. Maybe some people here need to grow up...preferably before they start instructing!!
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Whirlybird is quite correct about the National Minimum Wage (NMW). It does apply to ALL empoyees in the uk. So instructors are not exempt. The body that is supposed to enforce the NMW is the Inland Revenue (IR). In practice the IR usually check this when they are doing any routine PAYE/NIC compliance visit to an employer. The Ir will also make a special vsist if it receives a complaint from a worker who considers that he has been paid less than the NMW. The IR will not disclose the name of the worker to the employer.
As such, the NMW does not apply to self-emplyed workers. BUT, under the NMW regulations, it does apply in those instances where the employer is deemed to have wrongly classified a worker as self-employed.
So, if an employer has been treating a worker as self-employed, in order to avoid those little inconveniences such as paying employers' NIC, paid holidays, AND paying the NMW, then the employer may get a double smack hand & penalties from the IR. Firstly for being in breach of the PAYE regulations & not deducting tax & NIC from the pay, & secondly for not paying the NMW. This applies even is the worker has agreed, with the employer, to be treated as self-employed.
As such, the NMW does not apply to self-emplyed workers. BUT, under the NMW regulations, it does apply in those instances where the employer is deemed to have wrongly classified a worker as self-employed.
So, if an employer has been treating a worker as self-employed, in order to avoid those little inconveniences such as paying employers' NIC, paid holidays, AND paying the NMW, then the employer may get a double smack hand & penalties from the IR. Firstly for being in breach of the PAYE regulations & not deducting tax & NIC from the pay, & secondly for not paying the NMW. This applies even is the worker has agreed, with the employer, to be treated as self-employed.
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Ah yes the badges of trade argument.
Anyone who thinks that they might benefit from being an employee rather than a reluctant self employed person, and who successfully get the Inland Revenue to reclassify them as such may not necessarily be in a win win situation. If, as a self employed person one has for example claimed income tax relief on expenses of the trade or profession of flying instructor, it is by no means a dead cert that those expenses would be allowed, either in future or necessarily against reclassified profit to earnings. If one is undergoing training, for example for a rating, it may have been a deductible business expense under the self employed rules, but not so under the employed rules. Equally it is quite possible that such retrospective reclassification could lead to a reclaim by HMC&E on the VAT front.
Think before leaping into such a battle, it could be costly.
Anyone who thinks that they might benefit from being an employee rather than a reluctant self employed person, and who successfully get the Inland Revenue to reclassify them as such may not necessarily be in a win win situation. If, as a self employed person one has for example claimed income tax relief on expenses of the trade or profession of flying instructor, it is by no means a dead cert that those expenses would be allowed, either in future or necessarily against reclassified profit to earnings. If one is undergoing training, for example for a rating, it may have been a deductible business expense under the self employed rules, but not so under the employed rules. Equally it is quite possible that such retrospective reclassification could lead to a reclaim by HMC&E on the VAT front.
Think before leaping into such a battle, it could be costly.
Presumably you are keen to see all training driven overseas, distaff beany?
What about those FIs who are not permitted to be paid, e.g. PPL-holding FIs? Perhaps we'll start using those again for basic PPL instruction and tell the CPL airline wannabes to $od off to Florida to flog up and down Space Coast in clapped-out C150s until they've got their magic 1000TT?
If you want this bolleaux to apply to everyone, you can forget any new CPL-holding FI(R)s ever getting a job in the UK...because no-one will be able to afford PPL training. No customers = no staff!
This NMW rubbish crops up now and again - the truth is it ain't going to get any better, so you'll just have to put up and shut up and make the most of the system we currently have.
What about those FIs who are not permitted to be paid, e.g. PPL-holding FIs? Perhaps we'll start using those again for basic PPL instruction and tell the CPL airline wannabes to $od off to Florida to flog up and down Space Coast in clapped-out C150s until they've got their magic 1000TT?
If you want this bolleaux to apply to everyone, you can forget any new CPL-holding FI(R)s ever getting a job in the UK...because no-one will be able to afford PPL training. No customers = no staff!
This NMW rubbish crops up now and again - the truth is it ain't going to get any better, so you'll just have to put up and shut up and make the most of the system we currently have.
Last edited by BEagle; 6th Nov 2003 at 22:15.
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But nobody told me that side of the soggy sandwich when I wanted to start training. No no they said sweet fa about that. Just sign here here and here and hey presto..
The Original Whirly
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What about those FIs who are not permitted to be paid, e.g. PPL-holding FIs? Perhaps we'll start using those again for basic PPL instruction and tell the CPL airline wannabes to $od off to Florida to flog up and down Space Coast in clapped-out C150s until they've got their magic 1000TT
Another alternative....
Have a new qualification just for FIs that doesn't include the CPL exams but does include more relevant theory related to actually instructing. Does a career FI need to know about machmeters and jet streams? And am I the only new FI finding that actually instructing involves a VERY steep learning curve? Pay them a reasonable wage, and put up the prices to students to compensate. It works for helicopters, and we still get students. Those who don't want to pay, plus the airline wannabes, can use Florida schools and/or "flog up and down Space Coast" to their heart's content.
We'd have fewer students, it's true, but also fewer instructors, since only the people actually wanting to instruct would do the course. And it might well cost students roughly the same overall, since better instruction means fewer hours. I took 90 hours to get my PPL(A), a lot of it due to poor instruction. I'm not the world's most natural pilot, and the wrong age to learn quickly, but I've proved about average at everything in aviation that I've done since. So, without that, say - 60 hours? I might as well have paid a decent instructor a living wage, saved myself a lot of grief, and probably been a better f/w pilot. And I know I'm not unique; people with similar experiences to mine tend to give up, or only fly occasionally and nervously, or else keep very quiet about it. After all, who actually wants to tell the world it took them as long to go solo as some people take to get a PPL?!?!!! Even I kept quiet for for ages, and I'm renowned for more or less living my life on PPRuNe and to hell with the consequences!!!!
Or maybe the average number of hours for a PPL would actually go down. Why, back in the old days, learning on taildraggers, did students qualify in far fewer hours? I know we've added in instrument flying, I know airspace is now more crowded etc etc etc. But could it, just maybe, be that in the past people were taught by experienced enthusiasts rather than underpaid airline wannabes with 200 hours and no motivation?
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BEagle - please calm down 
I certainly did not say that I agreed with the National Minimum Wage (NMW)! As a beancounter, I was merely stating what I think the NMW rules are.
Indeed I do not agree with the NMW
It is one of those ideas that sounds find in principal: Stop all abuse of workers who are being forced to work for peanuts. BUT, as you quite correctly state, it sends jobs abroad. At the moment many large British companies are exporting functions, such as call centres, accounts (including BA ticketing), directory enquires, etc to low wage countries, such as India. For many such functions, the cost of staff in India is < 25% of the cost in the UK.
Lots of workers in the UK are now finding out, that where they try and enforce the NMW, one of two things happens. The big employers move the jobs to India, the small employers just cease trading. It is probably the same for FTOs. The big boys move the training to the USA, the small schools go bust.
So, BEagle, I am actually agreeing with you!
I certainly did not say that I agreed with the National Minimum Wage (NMW)! As a beancounter, I was merely stating what I think the NMW rules are.
Indeed I do not agree with the NMW
It is one of those ideas that sounds find in principal: Stop all abuse of workers who are being forced to work for peanuts. BUT, as you quite correctly state, it sends jobs abroad. At the moment many large British companies are exporting functions, such as call centres, accounts (including BA ticketing), directory enquires, etc to low wage countries, such as India. For many such functions, the cost of staff in India is < 25% of the cost in the UK.
Lots of workers in the UK are now finding out, that where they try and enforce the NMW, one of two things happens. The big employers move the jobs to India, the small employers just cease trading. It is probably the same for FTOs. The big boys move the training to the USA, the small schools go bust.
So, BEagle, I am actually agreeing with you!
The Original Whirly
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distaff beancounter,
Living in an area of the UK with traditionally poor pay (North Wales), I know a number of people in unskilled jobs who still have them, but can now afford to live a little rather than barely exist. I'm no expert, but from what I've seen the NMW works.
Living in an area of the UK with traditionally poor pay (North Wales), I know a number of people in unskilled jobs who still have them, but can now afford to live a little rather than barely exist. I'm no expert, but from what I've seen the NMW works.
NMW
As I have previously pointed out I was paid a salary based on NMW for over 3 years, as were the 10 other instructors I worked with. We had a lot of students, did a lot of flying and importantly had a secure, stable income.
The argument that if everyone was paid NMW all PPL students would go to Florida is rubbish. Thats been happening since I came into aviation 10 years ago and it has nothing to do with high labour costs over here, it is because the basic cost of flying in the US is an order of magnitude less and because the weather in the US allows the completion of a PPL in a concentrated 3 weeks rather spreading it out over a period of months/years.
Many other industries have tried to get around NMW leglislation through tactics such as cleaning companies paying cleaners on a per-square-foot-cleaned basis and they have been caught. It doesn't cost much to do things properly, and if everyone played by the rules no-one would loose out. But it won't happen unless there is a fundamental shift in school owners, club members and flying instructor attitudes towards renumeration.
The argument that if everyone was paid NMW all PPL students would go to Florida is rubbish. Thats been happening since I came into aviation 10 years ago and it has nothing to do with high labour costs over here, it is because the basic cost of flying in the US is an order of magnitude less and because the weather in the US allows the completion of a PPL in a concentrated 3 weeks rather spreading it out over a period of months/years.
Many other industries have tried to get around NMW leglislation through tactics such as cleaning companies paying cleaners on a per-square-foot-cleaned basis and they have been caught. It doesn't cost much to do things properly, and if everyone played by the rules no-one would loose out. But it won't happen unless there is a fundamental shift in school owners, club members and flying instructor attitudes towards renumeration.
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I am an 2 year FI, I have been flying for about 8 years now and I am making what I paid for instruction from 6 years back. In my situation what a free lance FI charges per hour around here is about average. I have been asked by some others in smaller towns to charge more. A thought, but I am not prepaired to go up any more right now. The economy around here is so bad it will make a difference on how many students I will have. I do not want to discourage GA here so I take a few less luxuries in life right now. I do not charge for ground time right now if it goes with the lesson. I may change that policy and charge a half hour of ground if the student is going to take up a large amount of time without scheduling ground time aside from the flight time.
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