Boeing 737 Certification rules as a two crew aircraft
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Boeing 737 Certification rules as a two crew aircraft
The Boeing 727 carried a flight engineer. The Boeing 737 was designed as a two crew aeroplane. I vaguely recall a Boeing Seattle instructor pilot on the then newly designed 737 saying that the FAA mandated the number of cockpit checks were to be within a set limit for the 737 otherwise a flight engineer would have to be carried. The 737 cockpit was more automated than the 727 for example and that was to reduce the number of switch movements and even eye movements required of a two crew aircraft as against a three crew type.
Now either I imagined this discussion with the Boeing test pilot some 40 years ago but I am sure I got this info from somewhere over the years. Or maybe it is all in my mind.
Can anyone tell me if cockpit activity was measured when the FAA approved the 737 as a two crew aircraft?
Now either I imagined this discussion with the Boeing test pilot some 40 years ago but I am sure I got this info from somewhere over the years. Or maybe it is all in my mind.
Can anyone tell me if cockpit activity was measured when the FAA approved the 737 as a two crew aircraft?
CAR 4b.720 in the 1950s required a FE if the work load required one. There was also a weight limit. If the gross TO weight was over 80,000 pounds a FE was required. The first DC-9-10s were delivered with the center fuel tank deactivated to keep the weight down. In 1965 the FAA changed the rule to make the requirement part of the aircraft type certification and therefore type by type. Douglas sent out some plumbing to connect the tank and new paperwork to raise the TO weight.
The 737 was certified in 1967 and some of the certification testing was to see if it was safe to fly with a two man crew. I don't know if they measured how much head turning there was but things like switch location would have be covered.
The 737 was certified in 1967 and some of the certification testing was to see if it was safe to fly with a two man crew. I don't know if they measured how much head turning there was but things like switch location would have be covered.
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B737 Crew Workload
I can't vouch whether it was done this way, but it should have been certificated iaw FAR 25.1523 and Annex D, the current amendment level for both those regs are from 1965
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It may not have been required to have a FE, but the 737 flew for quite a while (years in fact) with a 3rd flight crew member, at least with United Airlines. I am not sure It was something to do with union manning or perceived safety or not.
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Early human TCAS. The seating arrangement must left a lot to be desired. The 767 was originally configured for a FE, too. I've ridden jumpseat in a couple that had of course no FE station but had the bulkhead further back - making for a veritable dance-hall.
Ansett-Australia was the only operator of a 3 crew 767, the F/E had the pressurisation controls and a CRT display at his station....apart from that it was, get ATIS, call company, complete crossword puzzle....these A/C were all reconfigured to a normal 2 crew arrangement in the late 1990's...there was a company rule that we couldn't fly a 2 crew and 3 crew 767 on the same day...... the initial configuration was dictated by the F/E Union!!
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It all started with the Lockheed Electra. The Pilots Union got it mandated that the aircraft would be flown with 3 pilots and not 2 pilots and a flight engineer. ALPA also wanted all jet equipment to carry a third pilot.
This was basically a political move to weaken the rival Flight Engineers International Association.
There were a couple of strikes at National and Western Airlines and when they threatened to hire new pilots the new contract was signed, the pilots went back to work and the 3rd pilot issue was put on the back burner.
Boeing built a couple of mock ups for the FAA and ALPA in order to show them the design. ALPA came to the conclusion that 3 pilots were needed and the FAA wrote to Boeing to advise that it tentatively accepted the design.
There was a ballot in the summer of 1967 by United pilots and they voted 92% in favour of a strike if the 737 was not operated by a three pilot crew.
ALPA also proposed at the same time that the BAC1-11 and DC-9 be operated by 3 pilot crews.
The union members instructed ALPA to drop this request and they duly obliged but nonetheless stated that if the 737 was eventually required to operate with 3 crew then they would raise the issue again for the 1-11 and DC-9.
In September 1967 the Air Transport Association of America and the Aerospace Industries Association filed a report with the FAA supporting the two crew position. ALPA disagreed.
During the Thanksgiving week in 1967 the FAA operated a series of flights between Boston and Washington using a pilot from the FAA and one from Boeing. The purpose was to determine workload factors on two crew on the busiest week of the year in America and also in the busiest airspace.
They did two round trips each day for six days. During forty hours of flying they flew in IMC, VMC, carried out below minimum approaches followed by diversions along with simulated instrument failures and simulated pilot incapacitation.
In December 1967 the FAA issued the findings that the aircraft could be operated safely with two crew and would be certified as such.
But it didnt end there. ALPA wasnt happy. Both United and Western had to operate the aircraft with 3 crew members due to union agreements. These were eventually renegotiated over the years and alas the 737 became a two crew airplane.
I hope this goes some way to answering your question.
This was basically a political move to weaken the rival Flight Engineers International Association.
There were a couple of strikes at National and Western Airlines and when they threatened to hire new pilots the new contract was signed, the pilots went back to work and the 3rd pilot issue was put on the back burner.
Boeing built a couple of mock ups for the FAA and ALPA in order to show them the design. ALPA came to the conclusion that 3 pilots were needed and the FAA wrote to Boeing to advise that it tentatively accepted the design.
There was a ballot in the summer of 1967 by United pilots and they voted 92% in favour of a strike if the 737 was not operated by a three pilot crew.
ALPA also proposed at the same time that the BAC1-11 and DC-9 be operated by 3 pilot crews.
The union members instructed ALPA to drop this request and they duly obliged but nonetheless stated that if the 737 was eventually required to operate with 3 crew then they would raise the issue again for the 1-11 and DC-9.
In September 1967 the Air Transport Association of America and the Aerospace Industries Association filed a report with the FAA supporting the two crew position. ALPA disagreed.
During the Thanksgiving week in 1967 the FAA operated a series of flights between Boston and Washington using a pilot from the FAA and one from Boeing. The purpose was to determine workload factors on two crew on the busiest week of the year in America and also in the busiest airspace.
They did two round trips each day for six days. During forty hours of flying they flew in IMC, VMC, carried out below minimum approaches followed by diversions along with simulated instrument failures and simulated pilot incapacitation.
In December 1967 the FAA issued the findings that the aircraft could be operated safely with two crew and would be certified as such.
But it didnt end there. ALPA wasnt happy. Both United and Western had to operate the aircraft with 3 crew members due to union agreements. These were eventually renegotiated over the years and alas the 737 became a two crew airplane.
I hope this goes some way to answering your question.
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sickofitall; thanks for the information, excellent background. ALPA! At least at one time it kept pilots employed...now, well...no comment.
United ran their 737's with a 3 pilots (whatever they called the person in the jump seat I know not) until about 1979-80
United ran their 737's with a 3 pilots (whatever they called the person in the jump seat I know not) until about 1979-80
Flight Engineers were first put on US airliners due to a CAB ruling requiring them on airliners weighing more than 80,000 pounds and earlier on any US airliners in international service. Some lines, Delta, put on pilots; others like American put on ex-mechanics, United used a mix. All this led to a FEIA strike, the splitting of ALPA, as the American pilots formed the Allied Pilots Association. ALPA broke the FEIA union. At Eastern, we had about 100 former engineers who trained as pilots to keep their jobs. ALPA was insistent that only pilots could be in the cockpit. The PATCO and Continental strike of 1982 were just a warm up by comparison.
Then, there was the three-man commission that decided the B757/767 could be flown by two pilots in the US. One, ALPA; one FAA; one industry.
Interesting history, pick up a copy of Flying the Line by George Hopkins. Out of print, but try Abebooks.com
GF
Then, there was the three-man commission that decided the B757/767 could be flown by two pilots in the US. One, ALPA; one FAA; one industry.
Interesting history, pick up a copy of Flying the Line by George Hopkins. Out of print, but try Abebooks.com
GF
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It all started with the Lockheed Electra. The Pilots Union got it mandated that the aircraft would be flown with 3 pilots and not 2 pilots and a flight engineer. ALPA also wanted all jet equipment to carry a third pilot.
That's not 100% true. We (NWA) operated Electras with two pilots and a professional FE. We operated the Boeings with three pilots.
Goldfish
That's not 100% true. We (NWA) operated Electras with two pilots and a professional FE. We operated the Boeings with three pilots.
Goldfish
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Thanks for the replies. Interesting history there -especially about union power.
I wrote to someone in the Boeing historical section and if and when his reply arrives, I will post it here.
I wrote to someone in the Boeing historical section and if and when his reply arrives, I will post it here.
