Side sticks
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Side sticks
HELP
Is there anybody out there who has experience of flying an aircraft using non FBW side sticks? If so and you would contact me on email I would love to talk to you about your views.
[email protected]
Why? Well as you may have seen Richard Noble is doing a new SEIFR six seater with a PT6
This aircraft, the Farnborough - F1, needs to have a great number of modern aids to help the gal/guy flying it in the very demanding airtaxi role. It will have a glass cockpit. Naturally, it will be much easier to see, reach and operate the whatever if side sticks are used.
BUT RN’s team realise that the aircraft must also handle like a dream during a gusty cross wind approach into a nasty little strip at night at 75 kts.
The aircraft will not have powered controls so it is important that the forces needed to control the aircraft (especially laterally) are only modest as the forces pilots can offer using a side stick are clearly less than using a wheel.
We are currently getting together design data on this issue and would welcome any comments for or against about any aspects of this topic. Everybody will get a reply.
THANX
Is there anybody out there who has experience of flying an aircraft using non FBW side sticks? If so and you would contact me on email I would love to talk to you about your views.
[email protected]
Why? Well as you may have seen Richard Noble is doing a new SEIFR six seater with a PT6
This aircraft, the Farnborough - F1, needs to have a great number of modern aids to help the gal/guy flying it in the very demanding airtaxi role. It will have a glass cockpit. Naturally, it will be much easier to see, reach and operate the whatever if side sticks are used.
BUT RN’s team realise that the aircraft must also handle like a dream during a gusty cross wind approach into a nasty little strip at night at 75 kts.
The aircraft will not have powered controls so it is important that the forces needed to control the aircraft (especially laterally) are only modest as the forces pilots can offer using a side stick are clearly less than using a wheel.
We are currently getting together design data on this issue and would welcome any comments for or against about any aspects of this topic. Everybody will get a reply.
THANX
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The obvious aircraft to look at is the CFM Shadow in it's various guises.
The Sidestick on that gives adequate control, although the roll response on the type is poor (maximum of about 25°/s)- not I suspect a function of the control so much as the wing. The streak variant I'm told has better roll response but I haven't flown one and can't comment.
The obvious unusual characteristics of the Shadow is that the stick is canted in to the pilot (because it is right up against the cabin wall) which takes a little getting used to. However, I have to say that after 20 minutes flying it's entirely natural. There's also no problem with sticktop switches (the Shadow has a sticktop pitch trimmer and a throttle mounted PTT).
It was possible to apply fairly high and rapid forces if required because the cabin was designed with a good firm elbow rest behind the stick - I don't think this would have been true without that support.
The other aeroplane which springs to mind (and I haven't flown) is the Italian designed Skyarrow which also uses a sidestick but it's mechanised slightly differently if memory serves. Given you're South Coast based, I'd suggest you go and see the Shadow Flight Centre at Old Sarum, since they've also got a SkyArrow there (in fact I'm not sure that they've got anything there with a centre stick).
The Sidestick on that gives adequate control, although the roll response on the type is poor (maximum of about 25°/s)- not I suspect a function of the control so much as the wing. The streak variant I'm told has better roll response but I haven't flown one and can't comment.
The obvious unusual characteristics of the Shadow is that the stick is canted in to the pilot (because it is right up against the cabin wall) which takes a little getting used to. However, I have to say that after 20 minutes flying it's entirely natural. There's also no problem with sticktop switches (the Shadow has a sticktop pitch trimmer and a throttle mounted PTT).
It was possible to apply fairly high and rapid forces if required because the cabin was designed with a good firm elbow rest behind the stick - I don't think this would have been true without that support.
The other aeroplane which springs to mind (and I haven't flown) is the Italian designed Skyarrow which also uses a sidestick but it's mechanised slightly differently if memory serves. Given you're South Coast based, I'd suggest you go and see the Shadow Flight Centre at Old Sarum, since they've also got a SkyArrow there (in fact I'm not sure that they've got anything there with a centre stick).
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John,
Genghis' suggestions are the main ones I thought of too, however another is the Victa AirTourer. This was an Australian design which was imported by a Gloucester firm in the 60s and 70s, which had a single sidestick - albeit mounted between the seats with a spade handle so that both cockpit occupants could fight over the same device! Probably whilst wondering if the 100hp would get the rather heavy two seater over that hedge getting ever closer...
I flew it years ago, and from my very limited time in it I remember the lateral control forces as being quite pleasant. The mechanical flaps did also act as inboard ailerons whe retracted, though. I only ever flew it from the LHS, so cannot comment on what it was like using the stick from the right. It was used for training ab-initio PPLs, though, and I know at least one instructor who loved it.
Not really the same role as you and RN are investigating, though.
The same basic design was, I understand, modified, re-engined and used for basic training in the RAAF (AirTrainer?), although I don't know whether the modifications changed the flight controls.
If you are interested, the best person I can recommend to get you started on information on this aircraft is the Chief Scientist at Boscombe (BDN x2329); he has access to one on rebuild on site which is sufficiently disassembled at the moment to easily show the control runs etc. You could drop in if you are down the road at Old Sarum viewing the Shadow and SkyArrow.
Hope that's of some help.
Regards,
BossEyed
8-)
Genghis' suggestions are the main ones I thought of too, however another is the Victa AirTourer. This was an Australian design which was imported by a Gloucester firm in the 60s and 70s, which had a single sidestick - albeit mounted between the seats with a spade handle so that both cockpit occupants could fight over the same device! Probably whilst wondering if the 100hp would get the rather heavy two seater over that hedge getting ever closer...
I flew it years ago, and from my very limited time in it I remember the lateral control forces as being quite pleasant. The mechanical flaps did also act as inboard ailerons whe retracted, though. I only ever flew it from the LHS, so cannot comment on what it was like using the stick from the right. It was used for training ab-initio PPLs, though, and I know at least one instructor who loved it.
Not really the same role as you and RN are investigating, though.
The same basic design was, I understand, modified, re-engined and used for basic training in the RAAF (AirTrainer?), although I don't know whether the modifications changed the flight controls.
If you are interested, the best person I can recommend to get you started on information on this aircraft is the Chief Scientist at Boscombe (BDN x2329); he has access to one on rebuild on site which is sufficiently disassembled at the moment to easily show the control runs etc. You could drop in if you are down the road at Old Sarum viewing the Shadow and SkyArrow.
Hope that's of some help.
Regards,
BossEyed
8-)
Joined: Aug 1998
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 6,623
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From: Ex-pat Aussie in the UK
What about talking to the people at Cirrus? Commercail companies cost money to talk to, I know, but at least they would be current, as the aircraft has just been designed.
This is a nice, cable operated, side stick set up:
[This message has been edited by Checkboard (edited 10 November 1999).]
This is a nice, cable operated, side stick set up:
[This message has been edited by Checkboard (edited 10 November 1999).]
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Checkboard and BossEyed
Many thanks chaps. The Cirrus layout is one of the main reasons why I believe the job can be done. I flop pictures of its cockpit on the design teams table at most meetings!
I shall be out of circ for a couple of weeks now so it any other replies pop up please be patient chaps.
John
Many thanks chaps. The Cirrus layout is one of the main reasons why I believe the job can be done. I flop pictures of its cockpit on the design teams table at most meetings!
I shall be out of circ for a couple of weeks now so it any other replies pop up please be patient chaps.
John
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I just started my PPL on the DiamondAir Katana DA20. Its not quite a sidestick but if your design team isn't ready for the quantum leap forward to pure sidesticks, here's a halfway house solution from DiamondAir.
There is a 3D animation of the DA40 cockpit here (I can't get it to display here):
Cockpit
[This message has been edited by SR71 (edited 07 January 2000).]
[This message has been edited by SR71 (edited 07 January 2000).]
[This message has been edited by SR71 (edited 07 January 2000).]
[This message has been edited by SR71 (edited 07 January 2000).]
There is a 3D animation of the DA40 cockpit here (I can't get it to display here):
Cockpit
[This message has been edited by SR71 (edited 07 January 2000).]
[This message has been edited by SR71 (edited 07 January 2000).]
[This message has been edited by SR71 (edited 07 January 2000).]
[This message has been edited by SR71 (edited 07 January 2000).]
