The Road to FTE-ing
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The Road to FTE-ing
Hi Guys and Girls,
I'm hoping that you can answer a couple of flight test engineering related questions:
- What is the best/most popular way towards becoming an FTE, as far as through an aircraft design/manufacturing company?
- Do you have to hold some sort of medical to become an FTE, and if so what does it include (any www links at all?)?
I appreciate all your inputs.
Cheers,
l5otg
I'm hoping that you can answer a couple of flight test engineering related questions:
- What is the best/most popular way towards becoming an FTE, as far as through an aircraft design/manufacturing company?
- Do you have to hold some sort of medical to become an FTE, and if so what does it include (any www links at all?)?
I appreciate all your inputs.
Cheers,
l5otg
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I'm assuming that you already hold an engineering degree. That'd be step one. After that, it's like getting any job that you may want: make sure you have the minimum qualifications and build a professional network.
So what are the minimums? It varies widely depending on the organization, but if you have a degree in aerospace engineering and a Private Pilot license (or at least a good understanding of what pilots do), you're well on the way. MEs or EEs also have a pretty good shot depending on the program. Lab or wind tunnel work will also help. Then it's just a matter of getting as close as you can to the flight test organization. Any position where you analyze flight test data or provide engineering support for the maintenance folks will put you in the right circles.
As for the medical, here in the states, most companies require a 3rd class if you're going to fly on the test aircraft (the FTEs are primarily in the telemetry room for a lot of large programs these days). I'm not sure what the JAA equivelant entails, but for the FAA, a 3rd class is just a routine checkup and a detailed history. As long as you're in reasonable health, have normal BP, and aren't colorblind, you usually don't have a problem.
Finally, I'd highly recommend talking to any FTEs or test pilots you can find to make sure this is something you want to do. Everyone I talk to says "oh, you must have a really exciting job." But if things get exciting, it means we haven't done our job correctly. And you should also be prepared for long hours, odd hours, and high pressure. 6 days a week is the norm at most places I've worked, and 7 isn't unheard of. If you're flying missions that require still air, you've gotta have wheels in the well at sun up. Depending on how long the preflight checklist is, you could be looking at 3AM briefs. Or you could be called upon to work nightshift to ensure that the aircraft is correctly configured for test the following day. And keep in mind that you'll be the last thing in the way of delivering an aircraft that is probably many months behind schedule before it even came to you. Program managers, VPs, and in some instances CEOs will know you by name and be asking questions when things don't go according to plan (and they won't).
But if you can handle all that, flight test is one of the most interesting jobs that you can have as an engineer. Sure beats driving a CAD scope all day. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
-Shannon
So what are the minimums? It varies widely depending on the organization, but if you have a degree in aerospace engineering and a Private Pilot license (or at least a good understanding of what pilots do), you're well on the way. MEs or EEs also have a pretty good shot depending on the program. Lab or wind tunnel work will also help. Then it's just a matter of getting as close as you can to the flight test organization. Any position where you analyze flight test data or provide engineering support for the maintenance folks will put you in the right circles.
As for the medical, here in the states, most companies require a 3rd class if you're going to fly on the test aircraft (the FTEs are primarily in the telemetry room for a lot of large programs these days). I'm not sure what the JAA equivelant entails, but for the FAA, a 3rd class is just a routine checkup and a detailed history. As long as you're in reasonable health, have normal BP, and aren't colorblind, you usually don't have a problem.
Finally, I'd highly recommend talking to any FTEs or test pilots you can find to make sure this is something you want to do. Everyone I talk to says "oh, you must have a really exciting job." But if things get exciting, it means we haven't done our job correctly. And you should also be prepared for long hours, odd hours, and high pressure. 6 days a week is the norm at most places I've worked, and 7 isn't unheard of. If you're flying missions that require still air, you've gotta have wheels in the well at sun up. Depending on how long the preflight checklist is, you could be looking at 3AM briefs. Or you could be called upon to work nightshift to ensure that the aircraft is correctly configured for test the following day. And keep in mind that you'll be the last thing in the way of delivering an aircraft that is probably many months behind schedule before it even came to you. Program managers, VPs, and in some instances CEOs will know you by name and be asking questions when things don't go according to plan (and they won't).
But if you can handle all that, flight test is one of the most interesting jobs that you can have as an engineer. Sure beats driving a CAD scope all day. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
-Shannon
Educated Hillbilly
I would assume there are far more opportunties in the US and Canada than the UK, purely for the fact in the UK we no longer have any complete civil airframe manufacturers (except for BN and a few PFA /LAA manufacturers). Even BN rarely manufacture stuff these days, it tends to be all mod work for existing customers.
Westland helicopters has a small flight test department but not more than a handful of FTEs. Britten Norman again only have a requirement for 2 or 3 FTEs. Marshalls and FRA may have some requirement for FTEs, but I don't really have any first hand knowledge of these two companies.
Getting into a graduate engineering position at Qinetic at the Boscombe Down site is probably your best bet for getting FTE work in the UK.
The MSC in Flight Dynamics at Cranfield may be a course to consider. However in the UK FTE stuff is just very rare. Took me about five years to find an airworthiness job that also included FTE duties after graduation.
However as I already held a frozen ATPL at that point I realised that if I wanted to fly then commercial aviation was a far better option than FTE work.
Westland helicopters has a small flight test department but not more than a handful of FTEs. Britten Norman again only have a requirement for 2 or 3 FTEs. Marshalls and FRA may have some requirement for FTEs, but I don't really have any first hand knowledge of these two companies.
Getting into a graduate engineering position at Qinetic at the Boscombe Down site is probably your best bet for getting FTE work in the UK.
The MSC in Flight Dynamics at Cranfield may be a course to consider. However in the UK FTE stuff is just very rare. Took me about five years to find an airworthiness job that also included FTE duties after graduation.
However as I already held a frozen ATPL at that point I realised that if I wanted to fly then commercial aviation was a far better option than FTE work.
Last edited by portsharbourflyer; 9th Apr 2008 at 16:00.
Considerably Bemused Wannabe
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I found the replies to this thread most informative.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=237968
Cheers
S
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=237968
Cheers
S
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Anyone know if theres much of a route to FTEing from a Licensed Engineer background (holding an engineering degree aswell) - something I would like to do a few years down the line.
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It might not be apparent from the eastern side of the pond but there is quite a boom in new civil programs (and thus FT) in North America. Our company (see my post in scruggs' thread to see which one) has recruited FTEs & pilots directly mainly from the military side of FT but has also brought engineers in on occasion - usually from within the FT Engineering group and typically from those who have (at least) a PPL or an aerospace degree.
There's also a limited number of FTEs who fly on behalf of vendors such as Rockwell Collins or Honeywell mainly on Autopilot & similar avionics testing. This sector may very well increase as airframers go over to the "supplier is responsible for all aspects of their system" (Lazy B & my company's) model but the Dreamliner shambles may curtail this. BTW this approach is the reason/subject for the FT instumentation thread that was running here - there'll be a lot of companies suddenly finding they need FT expertise if only how to write a good test definition!
So, in short, go west, young man!
There's also a limited number of FTEs who fly on behalf of vendors such as Rockwell Collins or Honeywell mainly on Autopilot & similar avionics testing. This sector may very well increase as airframers go over to the "supplier is responsible for all aspects of their system" (Lazy B & my company's) model but the Dreamliner shambles may curtail this. BTW this approach is the reason/subject for the FT instumentation thread that was running here - there'll be a lot of companies suddenly finding they need FT expertise if only how to write a good test definition!
So, in short, go west, young man!
Educated Hillbilly
What about the work permit issue. I know that there are a few agencies that arrange engineering contracts in the US and can arrange the relevant work visas, but in general these agencies would only consider those with a minimum of 5 years experience in a relevant specialisation.
So just wondering how realistic an option heading to the US is for those without significant previous FTE experience.
So just wondering how realistic an option heading to the US is for those without significant previous FTE experience.
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PHF,
I would assume that you also have several years of valid aeronautical experience? In which case, I would say come over as an engineer in an FT group and then move over to an FTE position once established. I came into the States via Canada but there are others on this board who came over directly from UK & may be able to give you a better idea of what's involved. It's almost impossible to overstate the current need for aero professionals of all stripes with every major company in recruit mode after some pretty lean times after 2001. The only word of caution is that some of the smaller ones are not too sound financially - as you know several VLJ companies have gone bust - but the majors are doing record business.
Best of luck!
I would assume that you also have several years of valid aeronautical experience? In which case, I would say come over as an engineer in an FT group and then move over to an FTE position once established. I came into the States via Canada but there are others on this board who came over directly from UK & may be able to give you a better idea of what's involved. It's almost impossible to overstate the current need for aero professionals of all stripes with every major company in recruit mode after some pretty lean times after 2001. The only word of caution is that some of the smaller ones are not too sound financially - as you know several VLJ companies have gone bust - but the majors are doing record business.
Best of luck!
Educated Hillbilly
ICT_SLB,
I asked more out of interest as last year I left engineering for full time flying.
I do have about 6/7 (few gaps due to flight training) years of aero engineering experience and I had the chance to apply to an agency known as Volts for work at Boeing,;however the bulk of my experience is not in the FTE field.
I did have the chance to get involved in FTE work from a brief venture into the airworthiness field but it wasn't a particulary positive experience. However for other graduates on here the short course in the Cranfield Jetstream which was part of my original degree was enough for one company to consider me for FTE work (also I held a frozen ATPL).
However if ever I could find a job where I could combine flying and the engineering experience I could be tempted back to the engineering sector.
I asked more out of interest as last year I left engineering for full time flying.
I do have about 6/7 (few gaps due to flight training) years of aero engineering experience and I had the chance to apply to an agency known as Volts for work at Boeing,;however the bulk of my experience is not in the FTE field.
I did have the chance to get involved in FTE work from a brief venture into the airworthiness field but it wasn't a particulary positive experience. However for other graduates on here the short course in the Cranfield Jetstream which was part of my original degree was enough for one company to consider me for FTE work (also I held a frozen ATPL).
However if ever I could find a job where I could combine flying and the engineering experience I could be tempted back to the engineering sector.
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Portsharbor,
You might want to check out Piper. They require their FTEs to have Commercial MEI and instrument ratings. From what I hear, from there it's an easy transition to a test pilot gig.
You might want to check out Piper. They require their FTEs to have Commercial MEI and instrument ratings. From what I hear, from there it's an easy transition to a test pilot gig.
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Guys,
Thanks very much for all your replies - much appreciated, and very useful. Just to give you an idea, I'm currently finishing off a year-long internship after which I return to University to complete my final year, ending up with a Masters in Aerospace Engineering. I also hold an FAA CPL/ME/IR, with 1st class medical. By holding an FAA 1st class medical, would that be sufficient as a medical for an FTE?
Thanks again for your input.
Cheers,
l5otg
Thanks very much for all your replies - much appreciated, and very useful. Just to give you an idea, I'm currently finishing off a year-long internship after which I return to University to complete my final year, ending up with a Masters in Aerospace Engineering. I also hold an FAA CPL/ME/IR, with 1st class medical. By holding an FAA 1st class medical, would that be sufficient as a medical for an FTE?
Thanks again for your input.
Cheers,
l5otg
Most organisations seem to be happy with something equivalent to a JAA class 2 for a flying job FTE; you are / will be better qualified than I was when I got my first FTEing job - it sounds as others have suggested that the big issue is that first "in".
The FAA licence should carry a lot of weight as showing you know about aircraft operations, and I'd hope that any sensible recruiter would recognise that that, plus the degree, are a pretty good entry qualification set.
G
The FAA licence should carry a lot of weight as showing you know about aircraft operations, and I'd hope that any sensible recruiter would recognise that that, plus the degree, are a pretty good entry qualification set.
G
Educated Hillbilly
Gr8shandini,
Thanks for the suggestion, not something I could consider right now but maybe for the future; also I am at best an average pilot so not sure if I would really have the ability to be a light aircraft tp.
Leave 5 on the Glide,
My only other suggestion (you may already have this skill) is it may be worth learning German; although English tends to be the main project language it is noted the main GA manufacturers in Europe tend to be in German speaking regions (Pilatus, Grob and Diamond). The three mentioned companies may have some scope for FTE work. Good luck.
Thanks for the suggestion, not something I could consider right now but maybe for the future; also I am at best an average pilot so not sure if I would really have the ability to be a light aircraft tp.
Leave 5 on the Glide,
My only other suggestion (you may already have this skill) is it may be worth learning German; although English tends to be the main project language it is noted the main GA manufacturers in Europe tend to be in German speaking regions (Pilatus, Grob and Diamond). The three mentioned companies may have some scope for FTE work. Good luck.
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Next week im completing my EE degree and i applied all over the country for a FTE position.
I have 0- flying experience but my understanding on aviation/avionics is really good. Plus, im planning on starting my JAA training soon. I was hoping to get a job as a FTE in order to be able to payoff my training but no luck.
Most companies require prior flying experience or aircraft mechanics experience. Unfortunatelly very few will sit down and train you.
Good luck.
I have 0- flying experience but my understanding on aviation/avionics is really good. Plus, im planning on starting my JAA training soon. I was hoping to get a job as a FTE in order to be able to payoff my training but no luck.
Most companies require prior flying experience or aircraft mechanics experience. Unfortunatelly very few will sit down and train you.
Good luck.
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Kyriakos,
You have to realize that you will not get straight into an FTE slot in any company. If you're an EE with an interest in flying, then as I said before, there are jobs in Flight Test where you'll put both to use - for example, there will be a LOT of flying to prove the operational use of WAAS + LPV both on new aircraft and on updates. In the majority of cases, both an FTE and an Avionics Engineer will be aboard to gather data. My advice for any young engineer is still get onboard with any of the big aircraft companies especially in FT and be prepared to work your way in.
You have to realize that you will not get straight into an FTE slot in any company. If you're an EE with an interest in flying, then as I said before, there are jobs in Flight Test where you'll put both to use - for example, there will be a LOT of flying to prove the operational use of WAAS + LPV both on new aircraft and on updates. In the majority of cases, both an FTE and an Avionics Engineer will be aboard to gather data. My advice for any young engineer is still get onboard with any of the big aircraft companies especially in FT and be prepared to work your way in.
