New type testing / certification.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 1999
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From: England
New type testing / certification.
Question I was asked today, that I didn't really know the answer to:
For a new airliner design (as opposed to a variant on an existing type) so lets say for example the A 380, how many flights form a typical testing and certification process. i.e. from first actual flight, to first revenue sector, what sort of number of sectors are involved.
Anyone know?
Thanks,
pb
For a new airliner design (as opposed to a variant on an existing type) so lets say for example the A 380, how many flights form a typical testing and certification process. i.e. from first actual flight, to first revenue sector, what sort of number of sectors are involved.
Anyone know?
Thanks,
pb
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,188
Likes: 6
From: La Belle Province
Not an airliner per se, but FAR Part 25 cert, so it might be a useful guide.
My company have done two "new design" certifications in the last ten years or so - Global Express and Challenger 300 (nee Continental)
The GX test programme had 4 test aircraft at various stages, and probably about 1000 test flights over an approx 2 year period.
The Challenger 300 had 5 aircraft involved, and a similar duration and number of flights.
There's probably some "official" numbers around - it's the kind of thing they like to stick on press releases when we get type approval or first delivery. If you need better than a WAG (which is what the above is) it might be possible to find those.
My company have done two "new design" certifications in the last ten years or so - Global Express and Challenger 300 (nee Continental)
The GX test programme had 4 test aircraft at various stages, and probably about 1000 test flights over an approx 2 year period.
The Challenger 300 had 5 aircraft involved, and a similar duration and number of flights.
There's probably some "official" numbers around - it's the kind of thing they like to stick on press releases when we get type approval or first delivery. If you need better than a WAG (which is what the above is) it might be possible to find those.
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Nirvana South
My recollection is that Bombardier's CRJ-200 & 700 Regionals were also certified to FAR/JAR 25 and took similar hours & duration. Total hours will depend a lot on whether it's also a new engine or there are any "new or unique features" (read if it's new to the Agency be prepared to do a LOT of flying). Basic cert will usually include CAT I but CAT II is often done later as it will take a minimum of 60 approaches (over 20 flight hours). There's a lot of difficult wind conditions to obtain which entails flying to where they are - an additional couple of hours sometimes just for one approach IF the winds are still there.
Actual flight hours may not be so important on the A380. At last year's SFTE conference, Airbus gave a paper that said they were going to have all test data downlinked live from the air vehicle. Next test would be just set up required parameters/on condition/go (or even quicker - on condition/do test 1/test 2/test 3 etc - surprising how often seperate flights are carried out for the same conditions but different systems). The aircraft would be able to fly anywhere within a test area roughly from the South Coast of England down to the Med - subject to ATC constraints of course.
The Type Cert holy grail is a 12 months program from first flight but this is being stretched by software requirements. A good rule of thumb for a (civilian) software update is 3 months and it usually takes a minimum of 3 - 4 updates to get all the bugs out. Again the 380 may be ahead here as it probably reuses a lot of code from previous Airbus models.
Actual flight hours may not be so important on the A380. At last year's SFTE conference, Airbus gave a paper that said they were going to have all test data downlinked live from the air vehicle. Next test would be just set up required parameters/on condition/go (or even quicker - on condition/do test 1/test 2/test 3 etc - surprising how often seperate flights are carried out for the same conditions but different systems). The aircraft would be able to fly anywhere within a test area roughly from the South Coast of England down to the Med - subject to ATC constraints of course.
The Type Cert holy grail is a 12 months program from first flight but this is being stretched by software requirements. A good rule of thumb for a (civilian) software update is 3 months and it usually takes a minimum of 3 - 4 updates to get all the bugs out. Again the 380 may be ahead here as it probably reuses a lot of code from previous Airbus models.
Last edited by ICT_SLB; 20th November 2005 at 05:04.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,188
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From: La Belle Province
I was discouting the CRJs (of all variants) on the grounds they are all on the Challenger (CL-600) type certificate; the original question was "new design" and I didn't want to muddy the waters. (Though in practice, the flight testing savings were miniscule, the main advantages of staying on the type cert are structural and systems qualification, not flight hours)
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 496
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From: UK
Here are the figures for the 737 NG’s; it is a matter for debate whether they are variants, derivatives or new aircraft
From http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/...e_980219a.html
"This is a proud day for all of the employees who've worked so hard over the past few years on the Next-Generation 737-700 program," said Jack Gucker, vice president -- 737/757 Derivatives. "Together with the JAA and FAA, we have put the 737-700 through one of the most comprehensive and rigorous flight-testing and certification processes in history. This certification is a significant validation of the airplane's safety, reliability, performance and readiness to enter passenger service. It allows us to proceed with our first deliveries to European airlines -- the first two of which are to Maersk and Germania."
More than 20,000 engineering laboratory and airplane flight tests were completed before certification was awarded. The 128-to-149-seat 737-700 began its nine-month flight-test program Feb. 9, 1997. The total certification flight-testing effort involved four 737-700 airplanes, which completed nearly 1,600 flights; 2,220 hours of ground testing and 2,000 hours of flight testing.
In addition to the 737-700, the Next-Generation 737 airplane family also includes the 160-to-189-passenger 737-800; the 110-to-132-passenger 737-600; and the recently launched 177-to-189-passenger 737-900.
Each of these airplanes will participate in separate flight-testing and certification programs. When completed, the total Next-Generation 737 flight-test program will have comprised 12 airplanes, including the four 737-700s, three 737-800s, three 737-600s and two 737-900s. When completed, the flight-test program will have totaled more than 3,500 in-flight test hours.
From http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/...e_980219a.html
"This is a proud day for all of the employees who've worked so hard over the past few years on the Next-Generation 737-700 program," said Jack Gucker, vice president -- 737/757 Derivatives. "Together with the JAA and FAA, we have put the 737-700 through one of the most comprehensive and rigorous flight-testing and certification processes in history. This certification is a significant validation of the airplane's safety, reliability, performance and readiness to enter passenger service. It allows us to proceed with our first deliveries to European airlines -- the first two of which are to Maersk and Germania."
More than 20,000 engineering laboratory and airplane flight tests were completed before certification was awarded. The 128-to-149-seat 737-700 began its nine-month flight-test program Feb. 9, 1997. The total certification flight-testing effort involved four 737-700 airplanes, which completed nearly 1,600 flights; 2,220 hours of ground testing and 2,000 hours of flight testing.
In addition to the 737-700, the Next-Generation 737 airplane family also includes the 160-to-189-passenger 737-800; the 110-to-132-passenger 737-600; and the recently launched 177-to-189-passenger 737-900.
Each of these airplanes will participate in separate flight-testing and certification programs. When completed, the total Next-Generation 737 flight-test program will have comprised 12 airplanes, including the four 737-700s, three 737-800s, three 737-600s and two 737-900s. When completed, the flight-test program will have totaled more than 3,500 in-flight test hours.
