Indeed, I shall read it properly next time ;)

VNAVSPD - refunds? With Ryanair? :E

Just to explain the computer question I made earlier, at EMA when we still had the self-service kiosks for easyJet flights, we used to have supermarket-like scanners at the gate to scan the barcodes on pax's boarding cards. I haven't been involved in easyJet gate duties since the change, but assume that now they're using "Ryanairesque" bingo cards.

the worst thing about 25min turnarounds is motivation...... people are overworled and couldn`t care less, especially the cabin crew!

i could name one airline that does 25min turnarounds(kinda) and the cabin crew will never do a headcount! these are the kind of shortcuts that can and do pose big risks.....

jd.

firstly, after many years experience it IS possible to have an aircraft boarded and departed in 20 mins, as a dispatcher with passenger service experience i have very often completed the loading report, waited for the flight to close, do the loadsheet, offload pax and board 130+ pax by myself,
being a total beginner you cant see how this can be done, but don't tell people like me we are not doing our job properly.

if you organise your pax at the gate they will have p.p open at picture and boarding cards ready
step 1. look at pax as they approach
step 2. look at boarding card, move eyes down you will be checking name with in 2 second time span, you have already looked at pax and so can verify they match picture.
step 3. pull boarding card hand to pax and away they go...

becareful telling people they arent doing their job properly especially if you are new.....we take offence and dont forget

Don'y forget step 2a. check for correct flight number and date...

Or you could end up with...

step 4. do a count... one over and a load of hassle!

... also, don't forget to check the passports/ID cards' validity. Should you let through a PAP whose ID is out of date and he/she gets refused access down-route, the airline gets fined by the authorities (and more often than not, the PAP is sent back).

A boarding card count is done at the gate on EVERY flight and has to match the headcount by the Cabin Crew, otherwise... another headcount, another gate check, etc, until it tallies (or until the discrepancy is found to be spurious).

Doing that on your own in 25 minutes for, say, 189 PAX on a 737-800 - not including the inbound and your turnaround duties as a dispatcher? Yeah right...

Cheers :cool:

I'm sorry, but I find it very hard to believe that you did the job of a PSA, and a dispatcher on one flight by yourself in 20minutes. With regard to your comment about experience, I find that it is the long serving staff who think they are checking things properly, but in fact they are the ones who have become complacent, and are in fact just going through the motions! It's very easy, when you are in rush to look at a name and/or flight number without it actually registering in your mind.

Hi all! This is my first post here, in the thread I found most interesting at the first glance of the forum index. Well, most posts here match my own experiences of quick turnarounds, along with all the problems. Good to know all this takes place in other airports/airlines as well.
I currently work as a ramp agent/dispatcher in ATH/LGAV for a major greek airline, with a very tight schedule, thus having sometimes to cope with quick turnarounds. My personal record is 27 minutes on a crowded (both ways) 737-400, but that was just one of the few times that everything worked like clockwork. Disembarkation was fast, three buses on position on time, 4 loaders at my disposal, fuel truck on time, catering on time, fast gate agents, and -SURPRISE!- all pax arrived on time, and actually HEARD the boarding announcement. (If you haven't dealt with greek pax, you can't imagine... They are unbelievable. They tend to think they will board the plane on the STD...).
Anyway this is not always the case. You will always face one snag or another (my top three are : 1.missing pax 2.more bags 3.reluctant and stupid cabin crew). Luckily we are allowed to issue ANY delay code, although we do get a hard time for some specific codes. If i give an 87-airport facilities, most times some airport admin rep will ask why. I will always answer, of course, honestly, that HELLENIKON WAS BETTER...LOL

Now, can you please tell me tips for even shorter turnarounds? How does Ryanair,Germanwings and EasyJet do it?

Cheers!

The ID expiry check is done at check in and not whilst boarding.

With rgds to 130+ pax in 20 mins, if you can do the job quickly then it can be done. I was 10 mins late to a gate once, boarded the flight and still closed it early.

I was the only person in our team to not use the tannoy as I found that with so many announcements being made, nobody listened to them. Instead I stood half way down the line of pax and said what I had to say at the top of my voice. They all shut up, stood and listened and the boarding procedure was nice and easy.

You need to be fast to do a decent job.
At check in, if you insist on charging excess baggage at every given oppurtunity then you won't close a flt on time, simple as.
At the gates, if you insist on scanning everyones ID with pinpoint precision then you won't close a flt on time.

You also need to be ahead of yourself with rgds to missing pax. As soon as you know who's missing, get the bag numbers and get the ramp guys looking for the bags. If they are still missing when you are ready to close the gate then it turns into a race between the pax arriving and finding the bags. Basically don't leave it until the end, get it done whilst you can.

Superman or What!!!
 

Op's Six, if you don't mind me asking "What planet are you on"??

The passport/ID check HAS to also be done at the gate, its your companies final check to stop a 2 grand + fine coming back to you, Check in staff are human after all and can make mistakes + with INET check in starting the gate is the ONLY place this gets checked!!, remember the check in agent may be a Newie & out of the 80 pax they've checked in they make 1 mistake, It's then your job at the gate to bail them out, remember your all the same company any screw up's tarnish the whole companies image.

Excess has to be charged for & every kilo at that, remember airlines are sending more & more mystery passengers through to look for issues such as Excess, continual bad reports from them can mean loss of contracts & the inevitable loss of jobs that go's with it. if a passenger wants to argue about being charged excess then ask them to stand to 1 side & get the DM or Pax Svcs Supvr to deal with them, takes what 15 seconds max & the C/I agent is still checking in.

Sorry but there is no way that you can turn up 10 mins late on a 20 min T/round & still be able to board 130+ pax for STD, thats Bullsh1t & is an insult to the thousands of us who every day check in & dispatch flights on time, if it were that easy then we'd all be out of a job tomorrow.

Sorry I seem a bit peeved but nights do that to you, Keep the faith ;)

You may want to go back and read the post properly. I said and I quote "The ID expiry check"
At the time when I worked at STN, FR didn't have online check in and still don't for many of their routes, so the expiry check will be carried out at check in and not at the gate.


Excess- whilst the airline say charge for every kilo, I've worked with people like that and they CANNOT check in a 130 flight let alone a 189 without a 3rd person to assist. All good and well but in the peak period there are no spare staff and so the flight closes late. As you know, if check in closes late, the flight goes late, all for a bit of excess.

When the pax wants to start an arguement over excess charges, I think you'll find they don't all just step to one side and wait patiently whilst a supervisor/manager comes to speak to them. Most will go on and on, holding up the check in process for everybody.

Have you ever checked in an Italian with excess? They speak to you in English and then bang... you inform them of the forthcoming charge. All of a sudden they lose the ability to understand you and refuse to pay. A long arguement then follows.


I don't deal in bullsh!t. On that particular day, I screwed my timings up and was late. A duty manager had opened the satelite doors for the inbound pax and off they got. I then turned up 10 mins late and boarded the oubound pax. The flight was closed around 5 mins early but it still didn't stop the impending bo!!ocking. I wil add though that it was a 25min turnaround as are all of FR's (although I have done 20mins at the request of the despatcher before)

To conclude; I also do nightshifts, in fact I'm still at work as I type and will be for 3 more hours yet. However I'm not ratty as you seem to be so may I suggest that you get back in your pram?

Quote "You may want to go back and read the post properly. I said and I quote "The ID expiry check"
At the time when I worked at STN, FR didn't have online check in and still don't for many of their routes, so the expiry check will be carried out at check in and not at the gate."

I stand by my remarks that the Passport/ID check is done at the gate & Must include the expiry date, it is simple to do. INET is here now for all FR routes (according to Joanna Brady) & will cause larger issues as it becomes more popular, FR are sending out more hand baggage sizers/scales for use at the gates & that will be another thing to have to contend with, secret is though to get a holding lounge & call the pax as the aircraft is on finals. Re the excess charges I think FR will not be happy to think that your not charging fully for excess (by the way our flights are full & we still charge for excess & close on time. the system works if the staff are well trained) & eventually you will be taken to task about it, we were a few years ago!!!

Passengers will stand aside if asked & yes we check in pax of all differant nationalities & the Chinese are currently the worse regarding hand baggage, we've had staff assaulted at the gate by a Chinese women who dared to stop here and asked for excess.

This 10 minute boarding, did it include pulling the B/cards & inputting them into the system? I still cannot see how that was done without help!!

Hope you read this before leaving shift & here's your dummy that you spat out. Night Night :p :p :p

FR got that sorted quickly. I was unfortunate enough to fly with them 2 weeks ago and the online check in list was very short indeed. Now they've got a full house. Yes, I agree that with online check in, the passport should be more thoroughly checked but for an airline that does not offer that facility then I stand by my previous comments that it should be done at check in and not at the gate. With such short turnarounds you don't have time to scan passports or ID cards for all these details.

Pax won't stand aside all the time... remember it's a budget airline with budget travellers. I have had and also witnessed some big arguements. 1 pax I dealt with even walked out of the terminal building. I didn't quite get that one as he was flying home to Brussels ??!!

We were all monitored on our excess and every month I got pulled in about it (this was 2 years ago now). Those of us that didn't always bother charging got the flights closed on time whereas those that charged thousands over the period of a month could not close flights on time without assistance as I mentioned above. Of course, as much as the management were told this, they failed to see it.

With FR, there are 2 of you at the gate. 1 gate agent and 1 cabin crew member so yes, you have help. Inputting them into the system? Not at STN, piece of paper with 189 numbers and a pen.... FR aren't yet computerised there.

Thanks for the dummy, I wondered where it had gone ;)

Well done everyone, your patting yourselves on the back and obviously don't see the importance of H&S. If you are so concerned about your own performance and not the team involved then you have not listened to your training, or have not been trained to a sufficient standard.

It will take a serious incident for this to change and I just hope that my company are not involved!

I think a reality check is needed by a few!

Cheers

As somebody else has already mentioned, the reason these people are unable to check-in the flight on time, is because of the way in which Ryanair operate their check-in, not because there isn't enough time. With a manual check-in system, you are restricted to maybe 3 desks at most. With a common user DCS, pax can use any check-in desk: If one agent gets held up, then the queue can be spread out along the line.

The company that I work for (Not FR) have made it clear that the expiry date is only to be checked at the gate if the passenger has checked-in online. Our DCS shows when a passenger requires a full or partial document check. If the passenger has already had a full document check then we are only required to crosscheck the names, the photo, and then confirm the flight number, date and destination on the boarding card. However, for me, it's just as easy to check the expiry date, as it's a habit you pick up from check-in.

A full document check at the gate includes:

1) Name
2) DOB
3) Expiry Date
4) VISA requirements

And then all of the boarding card checks.



TotalBeginner:
I think this thread has shown, that while there are still people willing to cut corners for their company, then airlines like EZY and FR will happily continue with their current turn-arround times. I think that handling agents can be the worst for putting on the pressure, because their reward is normally performace related. I, on the other had will continue to do things as I believe to be correct. If that means a 5-10 min delay on my flight, then so be it. At least if something goes wrong, I won't be loosing any sleep.

AGREED! I had this when I was PSA at EGCC many years ago. And it don't stop there either - when I was Ops Super at the same place, ended up having verbals with the DM because we had two DLHs opposite sides of B pier and he wanted ONE ramp crew to turnround BOTH aircraft. Big safety no-no here; ended up having him disciplined.

What's the answer then? Well I wrote an article a couple of years ago for Flight International all about airlines and safety, namely that they should stop worrying about the balance sheet and start working on running an airline properly.

You've always got the ultimate get out card when it comes to safety - it just takes the ground crews (pax AND ramp AND dispatch) to have the balls to say NO when it's needed.

Worked for me!

One thing to remember is that FR and WW flight crews know that a 25-minute turnaround is rarely possible on a full flight (even worse if you take into account the WCHS/C/R) and therefore they do try to arrive on stand early so as to provide more time for the turnaround. Of course, they won't say so (officially ;))

Some lo-co also adapt their turnaround times to the destination; WW for instance schedule the NOC as a 30-min turnaround due to the near-constant WCHR PAX on this (pilgrimage) flight - and it does help!

Low-cost 25-minute turnarounds DO require extra staff in order to be done properly; therefore, while they shy from some facilities (lounges, sometimes airbridges), they ARE more manpower-intensive.

I guess we all have slightly different ways of coping with such tight turnarounds; one thing to do (as mentioned above) is to call the PAX to the gate/lounge BEFORE the aircraft has even landed, otherwise 25 minutes can't be done (there are always stragglers); another is to have passed the ramp fuel figure to the fueller, to have most of the O/B bags already on stand, all equipement ready and the loadsheet as prepared as possible (or already complete) - and obviously a good team at the gate and on stand.

In these conditions, I let the (FR) cabin crew stay on board and enjoy a well-deserved... 2-minute break! They have long enough days as it is...

Cheers :cool:

SATCO -totally agree with you; but there are too many people around just willing to "make do" with clearly insufficient resources (some of them just because they can't get themselves to say "sorry, no can do"). While there are many good aspects to the job, it can also get very frustrating, i.e. when asked to do a job and not be provided with the means to do it (or do it properly).

A typical Ryanair departure for us at EMA is to have two staff on check-in with both of us proceding to the departure gate after checkin closure 40 minutes before STD. As soon as arriving at the assigned gate, call for screens to be updated to show boarding gate, then put out call even if the aircraft isn't on stand yet. That way, once we do get the go ahead to board, most people are aware of & have migrated towards the assigned gate, with PRMs & 1-90 already waiting to board. I think EMA is one of the only airports where cabin-crew don't assist with the boarding process, rather we send down 2 CSAs.

To me, the 25-minute turnaround is an essential part of the no-frills airline model, and it has been safely & professionally done for decades in the states, and just over a decade here in Europe. I don't think 20 minutes is a good idea, but 25-30 is optimal both for us & the airline, if it is handled correctly ie proper staff utilisation, training, incentives & numbers. It also helps if the airport is equipped to handle 25 minute turns.

By chance, could anyone tell me why at AGP & ALC some low-cost airlines who usually schedule 25-minute turns schedule 40 minutes at these airports? FR (B738s) keeps to 25 mins at AGP & TOM (B735s) 30 minutes so surely it can be done?

FougaMagister I'm glad you're in concurrence. One really can stop the world if one needs to; there's an overlying issue here and that's SAFETY (I know you're with me on this one; your reply intimates it). There are too few "sorry, no can do" chaps out there. My example was a real 'stepping out of line and get an ass kicking' thing. But as a junior Ops Super my dispatchers thanked me after for standing up to the DM that, clearly, was in contravention of airline, airport, H&S and IATA rules, to name a few.

Turnrounds at 20 and 25 and 30 minutes ARE achievable, but as you correctly comment, you got to have the tools for the job to do it. Robbing Pete (i.e. the ramp) to hep Paul (pax/boarding) is a trade off - something's always got to give.

The point I'm making to all the threaders here is: IF IT DON'T APPEAR RIGHT, IT AINT RIGHT, and to MAKE it right, you gotta 'pull rank'.