LGW Virgin contract
 

Hi

Does anyone know which way VS are swinging on their contract renewal?

Aviance renewal or Groundstar ???

No matter which way they swing, I imagine whats good for LGW will transpose to MAN as well. Seems the sensible option to keep a single agent across the UK.

Dependant on Aviance's reported financial troubles, and the possible buy out of Groundstar by Swissport, maybe a change is on the cards!

Does anyone else agree?

Well VS are limited in their choices at LGW.

LGW only has Aviance/Ground*/Servisair/BA

Servisair are a No No and VS and BA wouldnt touch each other, so only leaves Aviance and Ground*!

So back to the original question, which one?

OTV

Aviance's reported financial troubles ???? Don't think so, they are the only handling company making any money at the moment in the UK.

Whilst they may have lost contracts at LGW, hence reducing revenue, the 15 other airports they operate at are doing very nicely.

Virgin got their fingers burnt at LGW when they went to BMHS, soon went back to GHI and no doubt this is a cost cutting exercise by VS, as all airlines do, to play Groundstar off against Aviance to get the cheapest deal.

Silky

VS did not go running back to GHI!

GHI bought BMHS and thats how Aviance was formed!

Red is right, GHi bought out BMHS(and MAS) to form Aviance...... Silky....get it right, Aviance only made a profit thru Go- Ahead - the trains and bus services.....Maybe at MAN but not LGW and def. not LHR... i've seen the figures and heard the excuses!!!! Expect a big staff cull at LGW especially if VS quit... (from what i hear 150+ Posn's).

They never went running back to GHi... CLP was ALWAYS done by them!!

But who could they go to....

It doesn't have to be ex LGW,

Maybe CLP at LX(Swiss)in ZRH, KL(AMS) or any one big in CLP anyone could take them on!!!!!

As is my understanding you had to have 2 contracts in LGW to start up, BMHS picked up Monarch (1999)......... and then VS as part of their old handling agreement at LHR but only to do the traffic, ramp and c/in parts (and then BA cityflier) All Sth terminal contracts. But GHi HAVE ALWAYS done the CLP for VS network wide, first at that sh***y landside office (below little Ed's) and then in the new office.

The problem in LGW is that they live in the dark ages..... Get out of each others pockets and out of the old boy network lets play golf routine and run like PROPER companies eg only 4 handling co's (BY and servisair) and up til 2001 only BA and GHi in NTH term.........(until EK and DL went to servisair)

to many old crawley by-laws running LGW.......


Maybe Swissport buying Groundstar will put the cat among the pidgeons.

WTD

Only the cost airlines will be the saviour of LGW!!!!

Try G*

Watch this space

Chef

Wise words!


I have heard G* have got the contract, and VS signed today!

Yep G* have been awarded the contract.

Good luck to VS because it will be a whole lot different for G* to handle a quality scheduled airline product.

Is the contract staying with Aviance at MAN or have Groundstar been successful up there as well.

Good luck to all at Groundstar, a feather in the cap there I think.

Surely not

please explain!!

a quality scheduled airline if they can get the FR product right along with the EZY product and there not doing too bad at the MON product i am sure that VS will be a challenge however the company is versatile and receptive to change if needed, with some bloody good staff to support them. Give them a chance

chef

So with G* getting the contract what will happen to the centralised load planning department???

All,

Undoubtedly the VS contract will bring new challenges to G*, but bear in mind that a lot of G* staff have experience gained at other handling agents and will be able to deal with this without any worries...

I for one will be watching this space with some interest...

Phoenix

Without any worries?

I think they may have a few problems. G* are the same as most handling agents. Firstly they will employ most of the Aviance people that work on the VS contract already, and G* also pay peanuts, and we all know what you get if you pay peanuts.........


Good luck VS!

CLP contact is seperate to ground handling and remains with Aviance.

Chef,
With the greatest respect to the airlines currently handled by G*, the VS product is light years more complex and the Shares system used by VS is a tad quirky as well.

Even with taking aviance staff, and with management who have handled VS before, I think that it will be a challenging time.

Good luck to all

It doesn't matter who handles them,

A handling agent is a handling agent.

Staff movement means that it can be the same staff handling them for 1 company 1 day and then the same staff in another company the next.

This is no disrespect to the staff at ground level.

They work hard!!! They get the same lack of support, same level of (under)staffing and the same crap equipment as usual.... Its the managers losing contracts for the company only to find themselves in charge of the same contracts they lost but in a job they fell into.

Where did g* MGT staff come from (LTN/LHR and all the ex BMHS excess at LGW) per chance and just remember BMHS, where did they get their staff from when they entered LGW thats right ex GHi.

All it means is..... slightly better or worse service for the contract airlines - any delays can be covered up but what they do get is the PRICE they want!!!!! and if the service is bad they'll drop g* and head back to aviance under even more favourable contract terms.

WTD

I worked 8 years for BMHS, and just when I thought things couldn't get worse, along came Aviance.

VS's perception is clouded by the fact that their ground handling at LHR was pretty good in the early days, especially check-in and ops. Sir Dick regretted going self-handling at check-in/ops, but he is mistaken if he thinks that G*, Aviance or any other could ever improve on eachother. Cutting costs in the short term will have long term and probably irreversable consequences. But that is the effect of competitive pressure from the LCAs.

G* did not make a bad job when the took over the Ryanair contract at STN, which by all accounts was a total mess before they won the contract.

Give them a chance to prove themselves, I think we may all be surprised by their success.

oh please get over yourself!!!!

Where does this misplaced loyalty come from????

Dont be sucked in as i said and i'm sure many others will agree with me a handling agent is just that.... dont be fooled by the bull!

especially with swissport taking over (if that happens)!

I've seen the figures, been involved with new contracts and heard the crap that goes with taking on a new contract (plus i know lots of people at LGW).

Please don't be so naive!!!!

pls do not be fooled by company s**t especially from handling agents THEY ARE THE WORST!!!

WTD

Handling Agents
 

At last people speaking sense! Thanks T_EM and WTD!

Onetruevoice, Groundstar should stick to low cost carriers, lost property and wheelchairs. The Ryanair contract is good at STN now??? Blah Blah Blah.... One word, UNDERINVESTMENT. listen to others on this thread. If i'm wrong i'll eat my, REDCAP!

CLP Staying with GHi..... I mean Aviance. - is that gospel?

Why do they see fit to keep CLP with Aviance and move the airport contract handling to another company, i know (GHi)AVS have been doing it for yrs .(What would become of the LGW CLP dept... although they done the VS contract, the GH concept in LGW was based around CLP?) Must be to do with saving money as Tony_EM and WTD says. Well they done the same when midland came down to LGW



Red

VS CLP
 

did hear a rumour a couple of months ago that upon renewal of the handling contract at LGW, central load planning would re-locate to LHR and be handled by VS dispatchers.

This would again be done network wide, but the obvious benefit being that it would be run by their own staff.

Anyone else heard anything about this as it obviously hasn't come about as yet ?

will the contract stay with Aviance in MAN or will Groundstar be given the chance there as well?

CLP
 

Hopefully we will get rid of Aviance CLP ASAP.

They are crap and most of the girls have really bad attitides - (guys are ok tho). They forget who's the customer sometimes and treat us as though they know it all and we are just thick ramp agents who know nothing about Flight Dispatch/Load Control when infact 90% of my department have all done CLP/Load Control for a number of years.

It's true about all the funny handshake business that goes on at LGW tho - about time that all changed.

Dispatcher - we would love to do it ourselves - maybe in a few months but no plans initially at the moment. We are foing throught some changes at VS at the mo to bring us more in line with what "real" dispatchers do so thats the main big change for the time being - I'd expect to see VS putting their own dispatchers into LGW in the not too distant future too if you know what I mean...... They will need them if tha LOS transfers too.


:O

So Sleezyjet - CLP are Crap! In what respect?

Not sure who has the attitude problem! They probably do come across as slightly bossy; but hey! they're the guys and gals that are load controlling all your flights worldwide. They actually feel like their working for the same company as you really; you know, part of the team! not, bowing down to you as a VS Super Despatcher. Anyway, they probably just got off the phone to JFK trying to sort out their usual last minute changes!

I'm sure VS would like to do CLP in house but, it's probably still cheaper with the current arrangement, especially given the tight financial constraints these days..

Eh, and why would LGW need LHR Style VS Super Despatchers then? I'm sure all current LGW despatchers can handle any flight that comes their way! :)

I think the attitude Leezyjet is alluding to has less to do with the authoritative aspect of their job and more to do with the lack of respect and behaviour that filters down from the management. I know there are exceptions to this, but front line staff are like computers; cr@p goes in, cr@p comes out.

This perspective is based on personal experience from both sides of this discussion.

While it might be 'cheaper' to have CLP, this is one perspective relative to a certain budget. The big picture is that communications errors and limitations cause operational errors and delays which cost the airline money but are hard to quantify. This is rarely considered when calculating how much money VS saves with CLP on their ground ops budget.

Through typical lack of feedback to management and their usual lack of understanding when they do get it, this big picture will be lost on the stratagists that make the big decisions.

Just to add; the perception that CLP are cr@p is probably because few have extensive experience of the front line job. This is reflected by the fact that most Aviance management have no experience, qualifications or empathy for the jobs below which they are supposed to be responsible for. Quotes from Aviance ops manager; "Load control is just wondow dressing because modern aircraft don't need it anymore" "Load controllers are prima donnas that are too full of themselves and just get in the way of proper airline management".

Interesting quote Tony_EM:hmm:

It doesn't sound like a comment the current incumbent would make from what I know of him, plus he has a solid background in Ops and Load control.

Some of the others might be little lacking in all round aviation experience, but aren't they a little higher up the hierarchy
:ok:

Surely Not, nothing would please me more than to learn that LHR ops was being looked after with some degree of integrity. It would be a rather daunting task to reverse the years of erosion I saw in my time there, considering the dwindling budget and all the experience they have 'lost'.

As much as I would like to embrace your optimistic outlook, there are others whose current perception is cause for deep concern.

CLP
 

CLP,

Firstly I would start by saying that there have and if i'm not mistaken SOME v good people who are at and have been thru CLP at GH LGW. but.....

I have worked at LGW and on the VS contract whilst they were handled by GHi, upon a visit to their office on many occasions as an instuctor, (G19, Pink office below little ed's and of course the portakabins) the attitude to was to new employees......,

"don't bother us with silly phone calls, we have enough to do.... not just with Ghi contracts but VS network wide...... look at this mayfly!!!!"

Now granted there are a few LC's who dont have a Brain cell to rub together and shouldn't be in the job, also there are a few who should know better and given the chance they would and there are also those who do an excellent job. But certain people in CLP could be guilty of stated crimes.

I have worked in CLP depts in the UK and continental Europe, I know how irritating it can be, but it is usually the company that you work for piling on unecessary pressures. Some people can deal with it and some cant. So Out of Trim although leezy's comments are not completly constructive they could be seen as justified. However i'm a big believer in treating people as you expect to be treated yourself and Airlines and handling agents can both often fall at this hurdle, too much infighting!!!


WTD


PS. Surely not, If You are talking about the AVS Op mgr at LGW he's a top man, However it'll be an uphill battle for you all, the co. is layered with fools! whereas if you are relating to anything at LHR, you could not be further from the truth. Tony_EM's quotes ring home horribly!

While I have been droning on about the negatives, I agree with WTD in that there are still some real professionals out there.

I suppose like any company or department, a few stand out at both ends of the scale. There are some worth mentioning because they were a joy to work with and taught me so much about the tricks of the trade as well as how to do a good job despite the seemingly constant cr@p from above. It was these few that always gave me hope that very high standards could be achieved if we had support rather than hinderance.

It is worth noting that my experiences are specific to LHR, not LGW, where the latter situation was relayed to me by good friends at VS traffic at LHR and those that came from and temporarily went to LGW.

Sounds to me like you have a goodun at LGW. Worth his weight in gold IMO.

The clincher for me is that Aviance have lost a lot of good contracts at LHR despite the feeble competition.

Who's the daddy, yes I was talking about the man at LGW.

Just in case there is any misconception, I do not work for aviance, but I have close dealings with them.

I have never actually worked for a handling company however have had close contact to both companies and staff over the years.

It is clear that after 10 years the same core problems still apparently exist at UK handling companies i.e. staffing, lack of equipment, terms of service.

My experience as a customer has been limited to Servisair who frankly were a shambles, poor equipment etc. staff were good but totally disillusioned and demotivated...it worked...just, through the efforts of the staff :ugh:

Have had direct experience of the Aviance staff at LGW on my Air Europa commuting. They have always been pleasant and I cannot say as a passenger I have any negative comments. But have chatted to a few and all were unhappy with their lot, reasons as above...

Unfortunately it seems that for many years the margins on providing handling services have been cut to the bone, instigated by the client airlines who swop one year to the next wherever they can get a bit more shaved off the cost...no loyalty, no long term commitment at all, hardly surprising then that the end result is perceived as poor service from the handler. How can they be expected to invest long term in such a short term environment driven by the airlines themselves. You get what you pay for :\

LGW Virgin Contract
 

Out of Trim,

I'll not come down to your level and resort to the name calling. But to answer a few of your points :-

Just because they are load controlling all the flights gives them a right to be bossy does it ??? :rolleyes:

If they feel like they are working for VS then that is their problem. They are not - they are Aviance.

I don't expect them to bow down to me I'd just like them to be able to justify themselves when I question their errors. Example :-

When there is a differance of over 5000kgs between the front and rear holds from the trim and the loadsheet and to be told - "oh thats ok, it doesn't matter about the hold distribution as long as the cargo figure is correct" is not an acceptable answer for me so of course I will question them.

It's when they can't get the basics like that right, then get all arsey and start swearing and slam the phone down when they get questioned about it that I have an issue with - and as the customer airline I don't expect it and I'm sure you wouldn't either !!.

I also never claimed we were "Super" Dispatchers. We are just going through changes that will give us some of the authority that a "normal" Dispatcher would get at any "normal" airline.

I'm sure the Aviance Dispatch guys and gals at LGW could handle anything that was thrown their way, but they don't have the same levels of authority being a handling agent as the airlines own staff would have. In order to improove the OTP this is why it's being considered at the moment to put VS's own dispatch staff in there.

It probably is cheaper to use Aviance at the moment, but I think VS are starting to look in the longer term now and also at the levels of service they are getting. They are not getting the service from Aviance that they would get if the CLP staff were their "own" and the Flight Ops department are fully aware of this. Also approx 80-90% of the LHR staff are trained in Load Control/CLP/Dispatch anyway and would be more than capable of taking over. Would only need another couple of staff to cover the CLP operation too.

So guess you must be Aviance then ??


:ok:

I have worked for a company that went from a handling company to inhouse CLP. 100% improvement. Please do not take that as an insult to handling companies load planners, you just get a better control of communications and company policies/procedures. You feel better as a real part of the team - would love to get back into it - ramp is getting cold again!

Leezyjet -

Sorry about the earlier name calling; It was in direct response to your first slightly over the top post.. It just rolled off the tongue!

I'm also sorry to hear about your experience with regard to a major ' loading discrepancy. ' I hope this was fully followed through with Aviance Supervisory staff at the time. If somebody made a mistake, they should admit it and of course apologise and put things right immediately. It is difficult to understand the difference you quote unless there was about five tonnes of freight on standby?

The reason I mentioned that most felt that they worked for VS, was because indeed most are totally VS CLP dedicated and only work for you. (I would have thought that to be regarded as Ideal, as can be achieved by a third party.)

Yes; I'm Aviance; but although qualified for VS CLP - only rarely work within that department currently.. but, always give my best in all respects whether working for VS or other customers.

I also currently despatch VS flights from LGW at times and have never had my authority questioned ever!

I'm also at a loss to understand how you judge our levels of service? Unless you have had frequent bad experiences that I'm not aware of?

Are you saying that you can take over Worldwide CLP with 2 more people and despatch LHR flights over a constant 24 hr period, 365 days a year?
Quite a feat if you can pull it off! Just how much ' D Plan ' Load Control experience do your fellow despatchers have; or are you planning to use some other system, - especially given joint Aviance / VS investing in D Plan 18 - not yet in use?

Good luck if you do! - It's not as easy as some may think!
:ok:

Boss Raptor -

Your comments echo loud and clear with me! You indeed do get what you pay for! Sadly, Aviation is now far to cheap to fully provide good experienced staff in all levels of ground handling.

I fervently hope 'It gets more expensive.'

Out of trim,

I've use d-plan before and it ain't exactly rocket science (also not the best load control system available either). Only took a couple of days to learn it.

When I was with Bmi when they changed to Shares/D-plan we did all the LHR Departures (90+/day) and all the MAN departures (about 15+/day at the time) with 2 people - sometimes in extreme situations we covered it with 1. So with a little juggling of the roster and flight allocation - yes I believe it would be possible with a couple of extra people a day to cover.

The Authority thing I was referring to was that if you are a handling agent Dispatcher and the Airlines own staff want to delay for whatever reason you don't really have the authority to over rule them, where as the airlines own dispatcher could.

The icident I referred to was back when we used the pictoral load plans and proper loadsheets (before these crappy acars things with half the important info missing - but thats another discussion i think). I added up what should have been in the hold based on the loadplan and compared it to the hold distribution on the loadsheet and there was roughly a 5000kgs differance from the loadsheet to the trim. When I questioned the load planner he said that it didn't matter about the trim as long as the cargo figure was correct !!!. I then said so you sent me an illegal loadsheet on purpose then thats when he got all arsey and swore and slammed the phone down.

It was partly as a result of this incident (and others too) that we started checking up more on the work clp was doing and hence why we have all these extra things to do now and changed to computerised trims and got ousrselves a Safety Officer that actually knows about clp/flight dispatch/loadsheets etc etc.

Things have got better now though, there are a damn sight less things that are wrong now (although with the acars loadsheets we can no longer check the hold distribution ??? ) . So it is improoving but still could be better. But as you said, the airlines will get what they pay for !!.

Happy New Year - maybe we'll chat on the phone sometime !!.



:ok:

Leezyjet,

"80-90% of VS staff at LHR are trained in load control"

When I left in 2001,less than 50% of the department were trained in load control.Of those that were,only about 30% had dispatched widebodies.The department was and still is a joke.How good of VS to suddenly realise that in-house CLP might be the way forward....too late for me unfortunately.Just so you know,dispatchers have zero say in dispatch issues at LHR because the whole department comes under the auspices of Passenger Services rather than Ops which is a f****ing joke in itself...some idiot in a suit who doesn't have the first clue about turning around a widebody aircraft telling you what to do at the gate.I agree that 90% of CLP agents at GHI weren't that good at their job.Having left AF,where I received the best training I know of,to go to Vs was a shock.I can totally understand your comments about the 5000kgs of cargo thing....are these guys for real?
Anyway,if VS do go in-house at LGW then OTP may not necessarily improve.Sorry about the rant....as you can see my experience there left me very pissed off and wishing that I had never left AF.

777

Mr. 777,

I know what your saying about the Customer Services thing.

Everytime we try and change something in the department we get told that we can't because "customer services will want the same too" - what a load of cr*p. It's a totally differant department for god's sake. Although the Flight Ops guys are really trying to get us under their department at the moment - just hope it happens !!.

I'm still glad I left Bmi though - money is much better at VS for doing less too (which can be a drag sometimes though).

I could not believe the things they were telling us we had to do when I was on the training course - another complete joke in itself. Spent 2 weeks just on maual loadsheets at Bmi - at VS we got 1/2 day on weight side and 1/2 day on balance chart and that was it !!! - Whole course was only 1 week - no mention of locks and stops and hold configs etc etc -stuff you actually need to know. Ok for those that had done it before but for the poor b'stards from the US that had never even seen a manual load sheet or an a/c hold :eek: .

When did you leave in 2001 ??? Must have been just before I started I guess. When I started, they took 6 of us on that all had previous experience from other airlines/handling agents and most of us are still there so the level of experience in the department has risen alot. Also the attitiudes of myself and most of the other experianced guys that I started with towards the safety/loadsheet side of things has had an good effect on improoving things too as when I started there were (and still are to a cetain extent) a lot of lazy b'stards in the department who didn't give a sh!t. Now alot of them have left and the ones that are still around make more of an effort now than they did which is good.

Anyway better go - back in on earlies !!!.

:ok:

Looks like you got my job Leezyjet...I left in Jun 2001.Very glad to see that absolutely nothing has changed since my departure!! Unfortunately,seems like most of the good eggs have left (Messrs Tate/Murray/McNicol etc.).I beleive the 2 guys I trained with are still there (Craig/Andy C.).I still see them now and again as my girlfriend is an IFBT so I travel a lot on standby (VS603 on 24 Jan is the next one if u r around!!).Give my regards to everyone (just describe me as the moaning git who used to work for AF!).
Glad to see that you guys have a had a nice payrise anyway...this was being mooted when I was there but never materialised.Anyway,I'm off to NATS to train as an air traffic controller,so look out for my dulcet tones on the R/T!!
Cheers,
777.

P.s Training an absolute joke.Bumped into a Traffic Officer at LAX last year.When I asked if the 024 was weight restricted he didn;t have a clue what I was on about....scary eh!!:ok:

Virgin at MAN
 

Can anyone confirm or dismiss the rumour that Virgin have given Aviance notice at MAN. And if this is true which handling agent they are seeking to use post Aviance?