WHO DO ENGINEERS THINK THEY ARE?
 

why is it that i have to address the captain or co pilot as "sir" where as some and engineers in particular call them either "mate" or by there first name?? surely if respect is due then its due by all and not just those seen by some as lower caste. i dont mind calling the captain "sir" but surely all should.

Why on earth would you call a captain "Sir"?

What are you on about? I've never called a captain sir in my life...

Called pilots by many names but never, ever "sir" (unless they have been knighted!).
A few pilots suffer from the God complex and use the term "captain" as a title. The position exists only in their work environment; only those holding a Queen's commission (in the UK, at least) in the armed forces may use it as a title. I think Salvation Army captains may, too.

Well noted that the title only exists within the work environment; I'm surprised that the airline pen pushers don't try to change the title to 'Customer Delivery Team Leader' or some such HR :mad: !

i try to avoid speaking to them as i find them generally rude, arrogant,and condecending and somehow a law unto themselves.

Ace,
I'm afraid that that notion is occasionally reciprocated; I've known despatchers who seem to think they could dictate the terms of a departure with respect to engineering issues.
If I may point out- with the benefit of several decades of experience - the perceived attitude is often a mirror of your own. The title of your thread speaks volumes, as does your latest post.
Nobody in our industry should expect to be be called "sir" or "madam" (other than fare paying passengers); you should, however, afford each other respect.

Well said bus429, ace are you suppressing some other deap seated hatred for us engineer types and you have found this is the best way to channel it?I mean, seriously, aren't we all on the same team trying to get the a/c turned round and flying again in the most safe and efficient manner and sometimes it is the way that any formalities may have to be ditched due to the somewhat unpredictable nature of the business we all work in. I know that sometimes we could all deal with giving each other a bit more respect (and we would all like to be on the receiving end from time to time!).Out of interest is it your company's policy that you have to address the captain as sir?I cannot imagine in this day and age that would still be the case but maybe I work for a fun happy airline..........

As a current dispatcher and ex engineer, all the crew, ground staff, toilet cleaners, caterers and engineers in my company get called by their first name AFTER they have introduced themselves (common decency / good manners...), otherwise by job title.

When I am working for a third party airline I ALWAYS address the captain as Captain and the engineers as Eng. I am not always sure of the etiquette in foreign operators companies / countries so feel that is the only polite way to do business. I get called Dispatch. Simple :)

PS who do engineers think they are? Well, it took me three yrs to do my apprenticeship and it only takes pilots 18 mths to train, so really you better show me some respect kiddo... ;)

I can't remember ever calling either a captain or FO "Sir" or "Madam", but I have told off a new dispatcher once for addressing all flight crew as "mate"...

As far as I am concerned, there is a minimum of respect required, which isn't evident in the term "mate".

Then again, I have noticed a few raised eyebrows on the part of PAX when I address the CPT or FO (or both) by their first name(s). I am on a first-name basis with just about every based crew (after all, they see my name on the loadsheet too). Those whose name I don't know (usually "visiting" crew), I just address without adding any title.

Simple really!

Cheers :cool:


P.S.: I have never witnessed a company or contract engineer address a CPT as "mate" either...

I've never used the term "mate". I always introduced myself and almost without exception, we always used first names. That said, some cultures are not so forthcoming in this regard...

There's some interesting psychological issues in this thread for example the mis-guided notion that - If I address you as Sir I am signalling that I am inferior to you. The real problem here is one of perception of ones demeanor and status, the lower the self esteem the greater the need to shore it up with objections to correct forms of address.
What's the problem with polite address? It doesn't bother the Americans who will even refer to their fathers as Sir.
Get a life be polite address a Captain as Sir or Captain and earn yourself reciprocal respect.
For more information on correct forms of address consult:
1) the Home Office http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind...%20ADDRESS.pdf
2) Debretts

Having worked as a Dispatcher and now working as a pilot i have seen engineers from both sides of the fence!


As a Dispatcher the engineers were nothing more than an annoyance! I found them rude and ignorant.....Especially those who work for a Charter outfit up in Manchester!:*

As a pilot i see them as helpful, and pretty intelligent individuals who are there to make sure todays aeroplane is likely to cause as few a problems as possible....I have a tech question so i ask them...SIMPLE!

Hey Longchop....

Sounds like you were dispatching for AAI in Manchester!!

Cheers, FD :ugh:

Ace,
I have just read your post and was a bit bemused. Your comment reminded me, as with most parents I am sure, of our offspring when very young, and with sulking pouted lips asking

'why do I have to address them as Sir and no one else does?'

And like most parents I said

'when you grow up, you can'.

The other reason could be 'pecking order', more defference being required from those closer to the bottom of the pond.

Not trying to be offensive here, only commenting on observations.

Gents,

This is a worthwhile discussion, but please try and keep it adult. If not, I may exercise the "thread-ban this user" option.

Adding a comment from myself about the discussion. If we don't all remember that we're on the same team, eventually somebody'll get hurt!

Genghis
Admin.

I address the flight deck crew as "chaps" and the Engineers as "mate" (unless I know their names, in which case I use it) when I'm busy and in a rush, otherwise I introduce myself then use their name and they use mine.

I never call a Captain "Sir" anymore - used to do when I was a newbie and thought you had to. If it was in the RAF, then I would, but some of their heads/ego's are big enough anyway !!.

The one pet peeve that I have with some f/deck crew is the way they speak to people. I don't understand why they feel they have to behave that way. No amount of stripes on anyones shoulder gives them the right to speak down to people or be patronising and condecending.

:\

C'mon, Gengis, that's a bit heavy handed. I've seen worse comments on other threads that have incurred no such threat from an administrator.

Surely 'EXACTLY' the reverse is true! Those who 'deserve' a term of respect generally receive it.Those who in their estimation believe they are 'owed' respect seldom receive it.
The most odious people with which I have worked always seemed the most status/rank obsessed.

woptb
No not the reverse; exactly the same. Those with low self esteem and presence will use their rank to promote what they lack. It still doesn't alter the issue. Whether they are worthy or not they are still entitled and being polite empowers the strong and demeans the weak.

İn my view it is perfectly reasonable, in today's world, to address your pilot colleagues by their first name within the confines of the company, however, the exception to that is when you are on board an aircraft and/or are in earshot of your passengers, then rank and surname should be used. İt is an important safety consideration that passengers understand who is in command and the use of the title 'Captain' or First Officer re-enforces that, you never know when people will need act directly to a crew command for their own benefit and no doubt should exist as to who's in charge or second in charge. Same applies in the cabin of course with respect to the SCCM.

There is however, another argument for addressing the commander as Captain, and that's business courtesy e.g. when a handling agent is dealing with foreign carriers as their customers. Often in other lands a greater degree of formality is likely to exist and if you want a good journey log report on how well you handled their flight then it doesn't cost much to be that bit more formal. Just think of it in the same way as a shop owner will often refer to you as Sir or Madam.

On occassion, and in my 35 years in this businesss they have been few and far between, there are those pilots who demand respect and the use of the title Captain, very simple to deal with- you simply request that they address you as 'Mister/Miss/Mrs.', soon balances the tables.

What's in a name?
 

Rarely is there any friction, on most occasions first names are used although being addressed in a non obsequious manor as captain is not uncommon. Rest assured you non-pilot types that the term 'captain' doesn't make the chest swell with pride nor add rectitude to one's already exemplary posture. Call me sir and I'll wonder as to what is wrong with you.

While we are on subject of titles - who is this engineer to whom the thread refers? Engineers design aircraft whereas subsequent maintenance on the finished product is undertaken by a mechanic. A tiny bit naughty and misleading of some of you to confuse the two.

i have a degree in aeronautical engineering, im also a CAA licensed engineer, i reckon that makes me an engineer.

under european regs (JARS) aircraft captains are 'commanders'.

if an engineer has a degree then thats his qualification. if he's only done an apprenticeship then he's a mechanic.

despatchers are despatchers.


whats the big deal ?

Noted pussy cat , but your qualifications are much better than par for the course aren't they? If I train to be a lawyer but end up being a postman, I'm a postman. You get 10 out of 10 for holding an engineering degree, but you're doing a mechanics job - hence you are a mechanic.

I always refer to crew I don't know as Captain or Sir, no problem being polite and offering a little respect. I'm in return always referred to by my first name or "Eng" and I don't have a problem with either of those.

As for the comments of all aircraft Engineers being Mechanics unless you've designed the bird, that's just nonsense. Shows a complete lack of understanding of what the job entails and the structure of the aircraft engineering world. Engineer is the correct title.

I think not, i can honestly say my degree was easier to obtain and took less time than my CAA licences took, i think your getting confused betwen the mechs and the licensed engineers there is a large difference both in responsibility and reward, as for me doing a mechs job you clearly dont really know a lot about the aircraft maintenance game, anyhow i suppose it doesnt really matter what im called, i earn a sight more than the majority of my friends who went down the more "academic" route after obtaining their qualifications, (having said that not many of them know the joys of being on a freezing cold wet windy ramp trying to sort out a tech aircraft at three in the morning!) finally, i suggest you look at syllabus required to be studied before sitting a UK engineers licence you may be rather surprised at both the content and depth of knowledge required.

let it be so.
 

Once again Pussy cat; noted with your point well taken. Of course from my perspective the important issue is that duff stuff be put right with minimal standing on ceremony once it goes wonky. Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs would be an acceptable maintenance option should they be up to the job - regardless of what she/they call themselves (equal opportunity and all that, there's never a good reason to look down upon a dwarf).

Henceforth, you shall in my book, be collectively known as Engineers, with all due reverence, respect and esteem paid to your worthy and well earned status.

But.....has the TV repairman now become an electronics engineer? This redistribution of title is trickier than I thought.

Thanks, but dont get to carried away....... those unlicensed guys are still "mechs" in my book!;)

I have to disagree with no sig here; first, many of us work either for handling agents or third-party engineering companies. Does that mean we could never address crewmembers by their first names?

I know many of my "client" crew, based or not, having despatched them for months or in some cases, years. They call me by my first name, even in the presence of PAX; I do the same.

A number of the based crew are friends/acquaintances from a previous career in a now-defunct Midlands-based airline :{ ... am I now to revert to addressing them as Captain/Sir/Madam etc. just because we now have different employers? I think not. If I tried to do so, they would probably ask me "what's wrong with you"?

Same goes for the Cabin Crew; a number of them are ex-colleagues, others are repeat "customers". They address me by my first name after a while. I do the same. I consider THAT respect; if they called me "Sir", I would take it they can't be bothered to remember my name.

As for engineers, it's the title commonly used in Britain; in some continental countries, all aircraft engineers are referred to as "mechanics" since "engineer" has quite a different meaning - even flight engineers are called "flight mechanics". Nothing demeaning there; it's just the accepted term.

Cheers

Fouga Magister

Of course, if you enjoy a close working relationship with the crews your company handles or know them of old then why not use first names, but I stand by my point that if you are within earshot of passengers then a degree of formality is appropriate for the reasons I have cited.

FM.
As per nosig you should still address them correctly. If your friends and colleagues were judges or doctors would you address them by their first names only when on duty? I don't think so.

To be honest, I don't care whether I'm called an engineer or a mechanic; what matters is being paid!

Unless, of course, you get paid more as an engineer than a mechanic.

Epsilon minus - addressing someone by his/her first name IS correct. After all, they do call me by my first name, so why should I call them Captain/Sir/Madam? That would be demeaning to myself. When they don't know me and I get on the flight deck, the first thing they do is to shake hands with me and say "Hi, my name is John" or something to that effect. I guess that means I can then call them by that first name.

If my colleagues were judges or doctors, I would indeed call them by their first name. I know the medical profession well enough from the inside to know that this is what they do. This is the 21st Century guys, and I'm NOT into the British class society thing. Full stop. Never had any complaints.

Respect is something that is earned, not automatic.

Cheers

FM
Are you a animal farmist?
"All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others"
In our simeonesque society we have established a natural heirachy with God at the number one spot (would you refer to him as Mate?) and the rest of us falling into an organised ordination some way below him.
Whilst I would stop well short of obseqiousness and forlock tugging, deference is a mark of respect for someones position in society and not a notification of yours.
With regards to you refering to Judges by their first name, may I suggest, when you're up before the beak, that you address him as "your honour" or "my Lord" unless of course you don't care how long you go down for!

EM - amusing how you can twist your own words! I refer you to your previous post (no. 33) - the case where judges or doctors would be my colleagues.

As for God, well I don't believe in him, so that's one out of the window. I also think that all men are born equal.

In your previous post you mention that I "should still address them (crew) correctly"; I agree, and that's precisely what I do, but without the obsequiousness you seem to agree to.

Incidentally, since we happen to be working for different employers, I don't think you are entitled to tell me how I should or should not relate to the crew I work with.

No hard feelings though - as the saying goes, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Cheers :cool:

P.S.: we might continue this debate in PM or we might be accused of hijacking the thread.

Interesting thread. I've never really understood why some people have a problem with either using the term 'Sir' or being addressed as 'Sir'.

Maybe its an age thing, and maybe it clearly shows a difference in attitudes between someone brought up in the '50 and '60's (like me) compared to later periods of upbringing.

I'm just an ordinary Joe who has no problem with either using the term or being addressed as Sir. To me it is just a respectful, polite and entirely appropriate formal address to be used in the professional avaiation world we enjoy.

I've had Captains who have said "Don't call me Sir, my name's John..." Fine! from then on he's John, but until such time, to me he is Sir or Captain.

During my early despatch days (Dan-Air, ahhhh!) we were dealing with many ex-RAF pilots, some of whom had seen action in Lancasters - now they really were gods, especially to am impressionable young man!

Even now, you go out to turnround an European airline, and the chances are that the CSM will be calling you sir!

Sure, you work with and get to know many pilots who become good colleagues, then its first-name terms all round, but until then, strangers will remain Sir or Captain in formal address.

Engineers always were and always will be scaley-backs to me (affectionately known as!) but they are a special breed who deserve every respect for the fantastic job they do, often in the most arduous of conditions. For me, the Line Engineer is 'Sir' with a capital 'S' (As in Sir Geraint!)

No Hard feelings
 

FM
I hold no hard feelings towards you or any one else in these forums. My time, like yours, is precious and I have better things to do than wind people up.
Having said that, you are entirely wrong in:
a) your interpretaion of my previous post and
b) your opinions with regards to public address of those who hold rank above you.
We live in a free (well almost with Charles Clark at the helm) society and you are entitled to your views just as I am to question them since you choose to air them on a public forum. However majority opinion will hold sway and it is that above all which governs our behaviour towards others.
I don't know what you do for a living but one day you may well be in a postion that earns a respectful address, would you then spurn it? This of course assumes that you dont go around calling judges mate before hand. ;)

*Meawwwwwww hisss hiss*

I'm so tempted to put a link to this in Eng & Tech, just to watch the gates of Mordor open.

But for the sake of the harmony of mods (and my membership of PPruNe!) I won't.

On a more serious note, I beleive if someone wants to be referred as whatever, let him. Just as long as he realises that in this day and age nothing stands in a title, but the job that he/she has been given.

Very wise decision ;) We hate our jobs being done for us!! PPP