Marshalling and nose-in parking
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2004
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From: LEEDS
Marshalling and nose-in parking
Pilots. If you are parking your aircraft on a stand that utilises marshalling rather than some form of automated guidance, what level of guidance do you expect from your marshaller? Notwithstanding the airport's own rules and regulations and your company’s own SOPs, are you happy to judge the turn on to the lead-in line yourself or do you want the appropriate signal from the marshaller? Do you need to be instructed to slow down or can you decide your own taxi speed ? I guess being told when to stop is the most pertinent instruction.
As a reasonably experienced but no longer practising batman, I preferred to keep it simple, i.e. over here, move forward, stop. I would instruct a 'slow down' if the pilot was caning it rather.
Is anyone prepared to admit to disregarding the marshaller's signals at any time ?! Does your approach to parking vary according to the light, weather and surface conditions?
Thankyou.
As a reasonably experienced but no longer practising batman, I preferred to keep it simple, i.e. over here, move forward, stop. I would instruct a 'slow down' if the pilot was caning it rather.
Is anyone prepared to admit to disregarding the marshaller's signals at any time ?! Does your approach to parking vary according to the light, weather and surface conditions?
Thankyou.
Joined: Sep 2007
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From: Hongkong
Disregardig the marshaller.
Picture this - Jumbo freighter with a nose opening door. Early morning (daylight) at a busy German airfield. We'd had a long night, were tired and simply wanted to park, shutdown and get into the crewbus to the hotel for some breakfast, a shower and bed.
As we pulled onto the stand the guidance was not illuminated but there was a marshaller positioned ahead and to the left in full view. The yellow painted stand centre line was also in good view. However...the marshaller wanted us way over to the left, nowhere near the stand centreline. We stopped and discussed the situation and decided that two skygahds knew better than a lowly marshaller. The marshaller became more and more frantic with his bats/wands as we ignored him and crept forward on the stand cetreline until he eventually threw his bats down in disgust and walked away. We judged that we were well onto the stand, put on the park brake and shut down. There was surprisingly little activity down below but after a delay a set of steps arrived and the ground engineer appeared in the flight deck. 'Did you see the marshaller? was his terse opening remark, no 'Guten Tag' from him. I explained that the marshaller needed to go back to school as we'd be parked at an acute angle if we'd followed his guidance. 'Yes' said our ground man, 'We could then open the nose door, which we can't now do cos the light pole (with the non illuminated guidance system on it - a clue there) is in the way. Would you mind staying here to release and re-apply the park brake once we've found a tractor to push you back and re-align you'. As they weren't expecting to use a tow tractor at that time in the morning we were stuck for almost an hour until they found one available. Eventually we could leave the aircraft to the load team, thoughts of breakfast now in the distant past.
Moral to the story...The marhsaller invariably knows best and has his reasons. That's why he's paid to be there.
S
Picture this - Jumbo freighter with a nose opening door. Early morning (daylight) at a busy German airfield. We'd had a long night, were tired and simply wanted to park, shutdown and get into the crewbus to the hotel for some breakfast, a shower and bed.
As we pulled onto the stand the guidance was not illuminated but there was a marshaller positioned ahead and to the left in full view. The yellow painted stand centre line was also in good view. However...the marshaller wanted us way over to the left, nowhere near the stand centreline. We stopped and discussed the situation and decided that two skygahds knew better than a lowly marshaller. The marshaller became more and more frantic with his bats/wands as we ignored him and crept forward on the stand cetreline until he eventually threw his bats down in disgust and walked away. We judged that we were well onto the stand, put on the park brake and shut down. There was surprisingly little activity down below but after a delay a set of steps arrived and the ground engineer appeared in the flight deck. 'Did you see the marshaller? was his terse opening remark, no 'Guten Tag' from him. I explained that the marshaller needed to go back to school as we'd be parked at an acute angle if we'd followed his guidance. 'Yes' said our ground man, 'We could then open the nose door, which we can't now do cos the light pole (with the non illuminated guidance system on it - a clue there) is in the way. Would you mind staying here to release and re-apply the park brake once we've found a tractor to push you back and re-align you'. As they weren't expecting to use a tow tractor at that time in the morning we were stuck for almost an hour until they found one available. Eventually we could leave the aircraft to the load team, thoughts of breakfast now in the distant past.
Moral to the story...The marhsaller invariably knows best and has his reasons. That's why he's paid to be there.
S
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2004
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From: LEEDS
Thankyou for that illuminating and toe - curling tale!
Not long ago I had a conversation with a now-retired 757 skipper and I asked him the same questions. Essentially he said that the pilots should decide when to turn on to the stand as it isn't reasonable or practical for a marshaller to be able to make that judgement as different aircraft have different turning characteristics. He added that generally speaking the turn signal is ignored by the majority of pilots anyway! I remember a similar conversation with a 737 pilot many years ago; his angle was something like, 'we just need you to tell us when to stop'. I agree with both sentiments.
Not long ago I had a conversation with a now-retired 757 skipper and I asked him the same questions. Essentially he said that the pilots should decide when to turn on to the stand as it isn't reasonable or practical for a marshaller to be able to make that judgement as different aircraft have different turning characteristics. He added that generally speaking the turn signal is ignored by the majority of pilots anyway! I remember a similar conversation with a 737 pilot many years ago; his angle was something like, 'we just need you to tell us when to stop'. I agree with both sentiments.
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Those in any doubt about marshalling might like to refresh themselves with details of the taxying accident which occurred to RAF Chinook ZA672 at Hannover in 1988. A totally avoidable tragedy.
Joined: Dec 2001
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From: GA, USA
Depends on the location, some places you completely ignore them, some places you follow if that’s what you’re doing already ( they mirror what you’re doing) and in some places they’re the ace of the base and you can trust them blindly.
Now which is which and where…?
Those are closely guarded secrets.
Now which is which and where…?
Those are closely guarded secrets.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2004
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From: LEEDS
The airfield I used to work at changed the rules in the last year, from passive to active marshalling. In other words, the marshaller is required to make the lead-in turn signal without exception, whatever the weather, day or night. This edict came from the airport standards department whose staff, AFAIK, do not have anyone with marshalling experience among them but see fit to tell external agencies how to do their job! Anyway, the snag is that, on some of the remote stands, the lead-in lines are variously angled or curved and are sufficiently far from the head of the stands that they can not be seen by any marshaller under ten feet tall, particularly at night. There are no green lights or reflective studs. How can an average height marshaller provide guidance there?
Joined: Apr 2003
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: Europe
I recently flew to a fairly busy UK airport, one I used to be very familiar with, but which I had not been scheduled to for a couple of years. We landed, taxied in and parked on the stand, using the stop line on my left to judge our stopping position. All appeared normal, the ground crew approached the aircraft, steps were positioned, doors opened, passengers disembarked until there was a slight knock on the flight deck door. Stood there was a very nice gentleman who introduced himself as the marshaller, asking us if we were aware that we needed his help to park the aircraft. Well, now we were!
For years this was a self parking airport so when we arrived at the stand I just assumed that that was still the case. There was nothing indicating the contrary, the stop line was still there, painted on the ground, and since no marshaller was in sight at the time I just pulled up and parked like I had done countless of times in the past. Moral of the story? I refer back to B2N2's post: it all depends.
Usually it's quite clear what the marshaller wants from us and wat we want from the marshaller. The only slight issues that come to mind are the marshallers who want to oversteer an A319 onto the stand as if it's an A340-600, those who abruptly and without any prior 'hint' give the stop sign, and those who seem to marshal 'in reverse'.
Question for the 'batsmen': why do some marshallers walk backwards and sideways as we approach to parking position?
For years this was a self parking airport so when we arrived at the stand I just assumed that that was still the case. There was nothing indicating the contrary, the stop line was still there, painted on the ground, and since no marshaller was in sight at the time I just pulled up and parked like I had done countless of times in the past. Moral of the story? I refer back to B2N2's post: it all depends.
Usually it's quite clear what the marshaller wants from us and wat we want from the marshaller. The only slight issues that come to mind are the marshallers who want to oversteer an A319 onto the stand as if it's an A340-600, those who abruptly and without any prior 'hint' give the stop sign, and those who seem to marshal 'in reverse'.
Question for the 'batsmen': why do some marshallers walk backwards and sideways as we approach to parking position?
Joined: Mar 2025
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From: Europe
From experience at my airline, it's a bit of a mixed bag whether or not the captain (tiller only on left on my aircraft type) follows the marshaller guidance. A lot seem to disregard directional instructions, but only obey the stop signal when it is given.
Having said that, I recently flew to one of the airports on our network where the particular parking positions at which we park are some of the tightest, in terms of manoeuvre space and turn radius. I was flying with a captain who vehemently follows marshaller guidance, on this last occasion. As we were approaching the stand to make a right turn in, captain asked me to advise him when the marshaller started making his signal to turn, as they would normally be out of his view before the main gear would approach the extended centreline. The marshaller, very early, began his signal to turn and the captain obeyed and initiated his turn, while I called clear right ensuring that no obstacles/equipment were in our way. It was fairly obvious that the turn signal was made too early but the instructions were dutifully followed nonetheless (and who am I to argue with that). When we came to a stop we were at least 30 degrees offset from being centrally aligned. Probably the worst marshalling/parking I've experienced.
At the end of the busy turnround, just before pushback, I noticed 2 of the ground crew had taken out their phones and appeared to be taking a photo of something on our aircraft. I flagged this to the captain, in order we ask to make sure that everything was ok. The captain asked over the headset (to the same man who had marshalled us in), if something was the matter and if the aircraft was ok. He replied, red-faced and chuckling, saying he doesn't know what's wrong with them (his colleagues) and they were just taking photo evidence of his marshalling. All good, as long as nothing wrong with the aircraft! No doubt those photos ended up in the some whatsapp group or similar, that day. I imagine that the marshaller will slightly delay his turn signals in future, in order to avoid a repeat scenario and further banter from his mates. Positive learning and all that! 😄
Having said that, I recently flew to one of the airports on our network where the particular parking positions at which we park are some of the tightest, in terms of manoeuvre space and turn radius. I was flying with a captain who vehemently follows marshaller guidance, on this last occasion. As we were approaching the stand to make a right turn in, captain asked me to advise him when the marshaller started making his signal to turn, as they would normally be out of his view before the main gear would approach the extended centreline. The marshaller, very early, began his signal to turn and the captain obeyed and initiated his turn, while I called clear right ensuring that no obstacles/equipment were in our way. It was fairly obvious that the turn signal was made too early but the instructions were dutifully followed nonetheless (and who am I to argue with that). When we came to a stop we were at least 30 degrees offset from being centrally aligned. Probably the worst marshalling/parking I've experienced.
At the end of the busy turnround, just before pushback, I noticed 2 of the ground crew had taken out their phones and appeared to be taking a photo of something on our aircraft. I flagged this to the captain, in order we ask to make sure that everything was ok. The captain asked over the headset (to the same man who had marshalled us in), if something was the matter and if the aircraft was ok. He replied, red-faced and chuckling, saying he doesn't know what's wrong with them (his colleagues) and they were just taking photo evidence of his marshalling. All good, as long as nothing wrong with the aircraft! No doubt those photos ended up in the some whatsapp group or similar, that day. I imagine that the marshaller will slightly delay his turn signals in future, in order to avoid a repeat scenario and further banter from his mates. Positive learning and all that! 😄
Joined: Aug 2012
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From: N . Daarset
With a health warning of memory being 54 yrs old ..... Memory says that UK Air Law exam gave the delightfully ambiguous rules that ..
[a] Marshaller's signals must be obeyed .
{b] Even when being marshalled , Captain is responsible for collision avoidance .
Still with health warning , 30-40 yrs ago a pilot was prosecuted for not obeying a marshaller at LBA , Leeds a/p.
rgds condor .
[a] Marshaller's signals must be obeyed .
{b] Even when being marshalled , Captain is responsible for collision avoidance .
Still with health warning , 30-40 yrs ago a pilot was prosecuted for not obeying a marshaller at LBA , Leeds a/p.
rgds condor .
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: Dorset UK
Around 1970 I saw an Islander being marshalled at Gatwick. The marshaller kept nodding his head as he marshalled the aircraft very close to a chain link fence and then the wing tip hit the fence. The marshaller got in his land rover and drove away.
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: Wherever I go, there I am
Is anyone prepared to admit to disregarding the marshaller's signals at any time ?
When the two wing walkers were looking at their phones and not the airplane, and the lead was too focused on the stop bar to look at the bigger picture, I stopped.
When it was clear the marshaller was bringing me onto a stop line far beyond where the gate could reach the main cabin door, I stopped.
When it was clear they were bringing me onto a line designed for a wide body aircraft, not a narrow body aircraft, I stopped.
We all make mistakes, and I put my trust in a marshaller as far as I would anyone else. If it looks wrong, I stop. I’d rather be wrong and not crunch a wing than follow someone’s directions and wonder why the winglet is sitting inside the bridge or on the ground.
Joined: Feb 2025
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From: Scotland
If there's a lead in line, I'll let the crew turn. All I'll do is indicate 'this stand/gate', then forward and stop etc.
On uncontrolled aprons you better do as I say or else! Yes, I'm looking at you, Mr USAF pilot.
On uncontrolled aprons you better do as I say or else! Yes, I'm looking at you, Mr USAF pilot.
