All this snow'n that.
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All this snow'n that.
First - apologies if this in the wrong place.
Second - apologies if it has already been posted somewhere else.
It's just that I do not post here much.
Now the practicalities:-
Long ago when I was a junior technician [radar] at RAF St Athan in the early 1960s they were messing about with a prototype jet snow clearer. It had two obsolete engines from an obsolete fighter aircraft. These were mounted on a platform with castoring wheels. The engines faced forward and the whole thing was attached to the front of a bowser. The idea was to blow the snow away not to melt it. I think the engines were Derwents from the Meteor fighter.
I was told that the thing had been shipped to Yorkshire where snow was more likely. This was done just before the winter of 1963 happened.
Subsequently I saw these things working on various RAF airfields. Once I saw a formation of four snow clearers. Two in the centre of the runway facing forward and a different one on each flank that seemed to be blowing out sideways. As far as I could see they cleared the runway in a single pass and could do taxiways also.
All this was in the 1960s. Surely these things are cheap to build and operate compared to the financial losses being incurred daily at present? I am amazed to see on the tele vast runways being cleared by snow ploughs that seem similar to the ones the council uses [sometimes] on the streets in the town where I live.
So as I see it the problem of snow was solved fifty years ago.
Second - apologies if it has already been posted somewhere else.
It's just that I do not post here much.
Now the practicalities:-
Long ago when I was a junior technician [radar] at RAF St Athan in the early 1960s they were messing about with a prototype jet snow clearer. It had two obsolete engines from an obsolete fighter aircraft. These were mounted on a platform with castoring wheels. The engines faced forward and the whole thing was attached to the front of a bowser. The idea was to blow the snow away not to melt it. I think the engines were Derwents from the Meteor fighter.
I was told that the thing had been shipped to Yorkshire where snow was more likely. This was done just before the winter of 1963 happened.
Subsequently I saw these things working on various RAF airfields. Once I saw a formation of four snow clearers. Two in the centre of the runway facing forward and a different one on each flank that seemed to be blowing out sideways. As far as I could see they cleared the runway in a single pass and could do taxiways also.
All this was in the 1960s. Surely these things are cheap to build and operate compared to the financial losses being incurred daily at present? I am amazed to see on the tele vast runways being cleared by snow ploughs that seem similar to the ones the council uses [sometimes] on the streets in the town where I live.
So as I see it the problem of snow was solved fifty years ago.
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All this snow'n that
Sounds like a good idea......But i dont think the anti airport brigade would like jet engines driving up and down the runway in the dead of night blowing away the snow....they go on enough about the aircraft noise as it is
Even though most of them knew the airport was there when they moved into the area.
Maybe someone could make one from an old combine harvester which anti airporters seem to like or maybe ring the church bells extra loud to try an shake it off....or a herd of cattle breathing heavy up and down the runway......sorry getting a bit silly now.
How about underfloor heating...it works for football pitches
Even though most of them knew the airport was there when they moved into the area.
Maybe someone could make one from an old combine harvester which anti airporters seem to like or maybe ring the church bells extra loud to try an shake it off....or a herd of cattle breathing heavy up and down the runway......sorry getting a bit silly now.
How about underfloor heating...it works for football pitches
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Snow Clearance
The best snow clearance I have seen was my time in the RAF in Germany, when a Harrier hovered along the length of the runway several times - worked a treat !
Just one problem - er, as of last week we don't have Harriers any more !
Just one problem - er, as of last week we don't have Harriers any more !
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I read somewhere that heating a runway is too expensive.
Also I have a vague 40 year old memory that the engines only ran at 30% thrust. I s'pose the bowser would be pushed backwards otherwise.
In the 1963 winter I was one of about 30 guys on the runway with shovels in a blizzard and drifting snow trying to clear the snow! Such fun. They wanted to get a Valiant in for a major servicing. It was made even more thrilling by looking out for the mad warrant officer,wandering in the howling wastes,trying to catch us wearing illegal non wool gloves,contrary to something or other.
A pongo was flown in in a beaver to find the runway drains under the snow with a mine detector. He found them and we shovelled them out. Then a Vampire was brought out behind a tug and used to melt the snow which then froze solid in the drains. Such fun. If it appeared in a book of Spike Milligan's war stories no one would believe it.
Also I have a vague 40 year old memory that the engines only ran at 30% thrust. I s'pose the bowser would be pushed backwards otherwise.
In the 1963 winter I was one of about 30 guys on the runway with shovels in a blizzard and drifting snow trying to clear the snow! Such fun. They wanted to get a Valiant in for a major servicing. It was made even more thrilling by looking out for the mad warrant officer,wandering in the howling wastes,trying to catch us wearing illegal non wool gloves,contrary to something or other.
A pongo was flown in in a beaver to find the runway drains under the snow with a mine detector. He found them and we shovelled them out. Then a Vampire was brought out behind a tug and used to melt the snow which then froze solid in the drains. Such fun. If it appeared in a book of Spike Milligan's war stories no one would believe it.
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At Stockholm-Arlanda we have what we call PSB:
"To keep the airport moving, a team of 130 people work with tackling snow and ice in the high season. They are aided by a wide-ranging fleet of Volvo products featuring specially built accessories. The most advanced vehicles are the PSB machines. PSB stands for Plough, Sweep and Blow, and they are based on Volvo Construction Equipments A25D articulated hauler. At the front of the vehicle is a 7.3 metre wide plough that shovels most of the snow off the tarmac. It is followed by a brush that sweeps away snow and ice, and the job is rounded off by a blower which with an extraction speed of 130 m/s blows away the rest. By driving nine such machines alongside each other, it is possible to clear a 3.3 kilometre long and 45 metre wide runway in less than ten minutes."
Snow-clearing at Arlanda Airport - Corporate news : Volvo Group Global
YouTube - Snow clearing at Arlanda airport / Snöröjning på Arlanda
BBC:How are airports kept open in cold weather?
"To keep the airport moving, a team of 130 people work with tackling snow and ice in the high season. They are aided by a wide-ranging fleet of Volvo products featuring specially built accessories. The most advanced vehicles are the PSB machines. PSB stands for Plough, Sweep and Blow, and they are based on Volvo Construction Equipments A25D articulated hauler. At the front of the vehicle is a 7.3 metre wide plough that shovels most of the snow off the tarmac. It is followed by a brush that sweeps away snow and ice, and the job is rounded off by a blower which with an extraction speed of 130 m/s blows away the rest. By driving nine such machines alongside each other, it is possible to clear a 3.3 kilometre long and 45 metre wide runway in less than ten minutes."
Snow-clearing at Arlanda Airport - Corporate news : Volvo Group Global
YouTube - Snow clearing at Arlanda airport / Snöröjning på Arlanda
BBC:How are airports kept open in cold weather?
Last edited by m99; 21st Dec 2010 at 21:25.
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How about getting some of the waste's of Space sitting around in Prisons all day playing on PS3's... given orange Boiler Suits. chained together with a shovel each!?
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UKSquiff
Yet another good idea...But what about their Human Rights.....the doo gooders of this world would not like this to happen.
Maybe us people that have not hurt anybody or robbed banks better do it so they can stay in bed.
Maybe us people that have not hurt anybody or robbed banks better do it so they can stay in bed.
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Grizzler:
How about underfloor heating...it works for football pitches
Somehow, I donīt see LHR operating with just one runway for whatever time it takes to install such device.
Also, in other countries, the army is there to help in situations like this, with their equipment and their staff. I read that the government offered the armyīs help and BAA refused it!
And what was stopping the army helping out clearing roads, directing traffic, clearing alternative routes, etc? Armies are not only for warfare operations!
As per the prison population, I think that, as long as in this country we have a very clear definition of the applicable punishments available for specific crimes, unless this punishment includes "forced labour", we would be making a mockery of the judiciary and their fair application of the law. We donīt want the law of the jungle here.
A more sensible approach would have been to rally a team of volunteers by recruiting temporarily those unemployed people living around airports, giving them the chance to get a much needed few extra quid, and providing the airport operators with the extra staff they need. Although I donīt think it would be of any use if airports lack the necessary equipment. Is a shovel really that expensive?
How about underfloor heating...it works for football pitches
Somehow, I donīt see LHR operating with just one runway for whatever time it takes to install such device.
Also, in other countries, the army is there to help in situations like this, with their equipment and their staff. I read that the government offered the armyīs help and BAA refused it!
And what was stopping the army helping out clearing roads, directing traffic, clearing alternative routes, etc? Armies are not only for warfare operations!
As per the prison population, I think that, as long as in this country we have a very clear definition of the applicable punishments available for specific crimes, unless this punishment includes "forced labour", we would be making a mockery of the judiciary and their fair application of the law. We donīt want the law of the jungle here.
A more sensible approach would have been to rally a team of volunteers by recruiting temporarily those unemployed people living around airports, giving them the chance to get a much needed few extra quid, and providing the airport operators with the extra staff they need. Although I donīt think it would be of any use if airports lack the necessary equipment. Is a shovel really that expensive?
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VID1977
And what was stopping the army helping out clearing roads, directing traffic, clearing alternative routes, etc? Armies are not only for warfare operations!
Ah the originator of Operation Deny Christmas to HM Forces
So it would be great to utilse our overstretched Forces to a menial task as clearing snow. They have enough on their plate without coming back from combat duties then picking up a shovel for peoples convenience to travel.
Been there, done it didn't like it in the 80's
And what was stopping the army helping out clearing roads, directing traffic, clearing alternative routes, etc? Armies are not only for warfare operations!
Ah the originator of Operation Deny Christmas to HM Forces
So it would be great to utilse our overstretched Forces to a menial task as clearing snow. They have enough on their plate without coming back from combat duties then picking up a shovel for peoples convenience to travel.
Been there, done it didn't like it in the 80's
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I though the army was there to protect us. I wasnīt aware that they are only there to help when the emergency involves using weapons, or that they were exempted if the emergency happens during a holiday period.
Council workers????
How about the councils turf everyone out of their offices and give them a shovel, should have plenty of manpower available then. They are paid to keep the streets clean. That's what council tax is for. It would only take a couple of days to clear the pavements etc.
Champagne anyone...?
VID1977 - reread the post. BAA were offered use of the army but they declined. Troops were out in Scotland clearing roads and pavements. As for "protecting" Joe Public from the snow 
the only thing most of them need protecting from is themselves. The TV news has kept me amused with endless tales of thumb-sucking cretins sobbing about how a) it snows in winter b) the Govt hadn't invested billions in snow ploughs to clear every road and runway instantly and c) they were going to sue someone. Brilliant. Morons.
The military would be delighted to help out however there aren't enough of them to assist with every minor inconvenience that bothers Joe Idle.
the only thing most of them need protecting from is themselves. The TV news has kept me amused with endless tales of thumb-sucking cretins sobbing about how a) it snows in winter b) the Govt hadn't invested billions in snow ploughs to clear every road and runway instantly and c) they were going to sue someone. Brilliant. Morons.The military would be delighted to help out however there aren't enough of them to assist with every minor inconvenience that bothers Joe Idle.
Vld1977,
Perhaps a little less righteous indignation on your part, and a little more research, and you could answer your own questions....
Military Aid to the Civil Community - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Google
In this day and age when the beancounters rule everywhere, I believe that MOD has to be paid for any assistance by the other relevant government department (e.g. Agriculture if MOD helos are used to feed animals cut off in the snow). Quite often it is the OTHER government department that is unwilling to fund the costs - hence the MOD (for you read Army) doesn't get involved EVEN IF IT WOULD WISH TO!
Also, be aware, that Tesco employ far more people than are in the Army today. The Army is not the limitless pool of manpower people seem to think it is!
Perhaps a little less righteous indignation on your part, and a little more research, and you could answer your own questions....
Military Aid to the Civil Community - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In this day and age when the beancounters rule everywhere, I believe that MOD has to be paid for any assistance by the other relevant government department (e.g. Agriculture if MOD helos are used to feed animals cut off in the snow). Quite often it is the OTHER government department that is unwilling to fund the costs - hence the MOD (for you read Army) doesn't get involved EVEN IF IT WOULD WISH TO!
Also, be aware, that Tesco employ far more people than are in the Army today. The Army is not the limitless pool of manpower people seem to think it is!
Also, be aware, that Tesco employ far more people than are in the Army today. The Army is not the limitless pool of manpower people seem to think it is!
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rant
If anyone in the Army was lucky enough to get Xmas off work like I did, bloody good luck to them.
The last thing they should have to do is clear runways so a bunch of benefit scroungers can fly to Ibiza for Xmas and New Year.
And as for clearing the roads so the great unwashed of central Scotland can get to the pub!!
This country's loyalty re the Armed Forces is a one way street. The general public should get over it - the Army is an undermanned overstretched fighting force, not a Fairy Godmother.
Merry Xmas and A Happy New Year to the Army.
PS. Turn your mobiles off lads, there may be more bad weather coming soon
The last thing they should have to do is clear runways so a bunch of benefit scroungers can fly to Ibiza for Xmas and New Year.
And as for clearing the roads so the great unwashed of central Scotland can get to the pub!!
This country's loyalty re the Armed Forces is a one way street. The general public should get over it - the Army is an undermanned overstretched fighting force, not a Fairy Godmother.
Merry Xmas and A Happy New Year to the Army.
PS. Turn your mobiles off lads, there may be more bad weather coming soon
I usually find that those who pontificate about what the "Army" and "councils" should do are totally ignorant of the basic facts of what both really do and the capabilities of both to actually do what the great ignorant of "joe public" would like them to do.
I have to say that reading this thread, I have not been disappointed yet again.
Merry Xmas etc.
Doc C
(Now, if you're that bothered, perhaps you will go and buy a shovel yourselves and get ready for the next snow instead of expecting someone else to do it for you.)
I have to say that reading this thread, I have not been disappointed yet again.
Merry Xmas etc.
Doc C
(Now, if you're that bothered, perhaps you will go and buy a shovel yourselves and get ready for the next snow instead of expecting someone else to do it for you.)
Vld
Here you go. You want pages 6-9 and 6-10.
The basic principle is now that the Armed Forces are not to be used to bailout other government departments who have mismanaged their budgets/spending plans. If the Armed Forces are called in to help, then the relevant OGD is billed for the services provided. The exception is obviously when the situation is life-threatening or in emergency.
Edited to add:
Even better try this: JDP 02 It has all the answers you might be looking for.
Here you go. You want pages 6-9 and 6-10.
The basic principle is now that the Armed Forces are not to be used to bailout other government departments who have mismanaged their budgets/spending plans. If the Armed Forces are called in to help, then the relevant OGD is billed for the services provided. The exception is obviously when the situation is life-threatening or in emergency.
Edited to add:
Even better try this: JDP 02 It has all the answers you might be looking for.
Last edited by Roland Pulfrew; 28th Dec 2010 at 16:57.