A couple of FPL questions
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A couple of FPL questions
In no particular order:
1. Does anybody know how much an operator is charged for filing a FPL. I mean by Eurocontrol etc, as opposed to per/FPL on different planning software.
2. Are operators obliged to follow airways? For example, in my area radar days we occasionally had jets come out of MAN, heading east, where they would turn right 'cross country' through the big triangular gap in the airways and join controlled airspace somewhere south of G1. We were also kept fairly busy with all sorts of a/c criss-crossing this chunk of airspace - hence the need for ATC - but why don't, say LBA departures just cross this gap and save fuel? (I'll add that I was doing area radar around 1991, before Europe seized control).
3. Does submission of a FPL mean I have to use Eurocontrol's airways structure? Obviously if I do use airways I have to go the right way at the right height, but can I (perhaps stupidly) opt out and ask for a radar service from one radar unit to another?
eg. If I want to go Oxford to Bournemouth there are no airways. The pilot of a trip asked me to file a FPL, not least to makes sure he was 'in the system' on a dark and windy night, on the edge of everyone's opening hours. I filed DCT SAM, only to have Eurocontrol amend this to DCT CPT DCT. What have they achieved, apart from increasing my burn?
1. Does anybody know how much an operator is charged for filing a FPL. I mean by Eurocontrol etc, as opposed to per/FPL on different planning software.
2. Are operators obliged to follow airways? For example, in my area radar days we occasionally had jets come out of MAN, heading east, where they would turn right 'cross country' through the big triangular gap in the airways and join controlled airspace somewhere south of G1. We were also kept fairly busy with all sorts of a/c criss-crossing this chunk of airspace - hence the need for ATC - but why don't, say LBA departures just cross this gap and save fuel? (I'll add that I was doing area radar around 1991, before Europe seized control).
3. Does submission of a FPL mean I have to use Eurocontrol's airways structure? Obviously if I do use airways I have to go the right way at the right height, but can I (perhaps stupidly) opt out and ask for a radar service from one radar unit to another?
eg. If I want to go Oxford to Bournemouth there are no airways. The pilot of a trip asked me to file a FPL, not least to makes sure he was 'in the system' on a dark and windy night, on the edge of everyone's opening hours. I filed DCT SAM, only to have Eurocontrol amend this to DCT CPT DCT. What have they achieved, apart from increasing my burn?
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Hi buddy - didn't know you were back. I'm not well disposed to speak tonight - can we do it another time or by e-mail? I could do with speaking to you at some point anyway - am trying to convince my new lot that Jetplan is a good investment, but still have lots of Qs about peripheral stuff.
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Next question to the open forum:
What do Jetplan/Jetplanner users do for MAN/ACK etc messages from Eurocontrol, esp. if they don't have AFTN or SITA?
What do Jetplan/Jetplanner users do for MAN/ACK etc messages from Eurocontrol, esp. if they don't have AFTN or SITA?
If you use JetPlanner, you will have an account for JetPlan.com that will provide Ack's etc.
This will also allow you transmit via ARINC/SITA/AFTN/Fax/Email. But as ever with Jepp products, nothing is free.
Best you give me a ring mate, or better still.... come up and see me sometime... (but not in that sort of sense)
This will also allow you transmit via ARINC/SITA/AFTN/Fax/Email. But as ever with Jepp products, nothing is free.
Best you give me a ring mate, or better still.... come up and see me sometime... (but not in that sort of sense)
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PM me with yr number will you mate? Could pop see you Mon/Tue next week if you're around, but needs to be soon as, tragically, I need to hand my ID back soon! [insert sarcastic crying symbol]...
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I can hazard a guess at a few answers.
1. Certinally in terms of ad-hoc flights we file flight plans all the time for pilots through are AFTN and this costs them nothing. Although i suppose they are paying us for our air traffic control service. However these ad-hoc flights are not being billed by us anyway.
2. Operators are not obliged to follow airways by any legal boundry that im aware of. Obviously the operators would prefer their pilots to stay in nice safe CAS rather than dropping out into bandit country so to speak to know a few minutes off the flight time.
3. If your filing IFR on your flight plan your tied to using the correct routings. The systems are automatic most of the time. If you file IFR on a route you WANT to take but Eurocontrol say that route isn't a recognised routing from ABC-XYZ then they will give you the correct routing and like it or lump it. If everyone did everything they want it would be manic so its regulated. If they don't like the routing they will just give you the one they do like. This applies to your Oxford to Bournemouth flight.
Your other options are to file Y/Z on the plan and go IFR to VFR of vice versa but this is dangerous, if you are on route and meet some weather and say eek i wana stay IFR in these lovely airways they will most of the time chuck you out at your intended VFR point. So if i were you id leave this one alone.
You can always file IFR and change en-route so get your airways clearance go up fly it for however long you want then say i wana drop out of CAS and take up a radar service from Farnborough or whatever...
We 'organise' IFR cross-country hops for flights all the time. Alot of our flights want to reposition from us to east mids or like with the Crossair's they like to go off to the west through military to Ireland. They arn't very easy to organise the first time but once the units have seen the same flight doing the same thing an unwritten procedure falls into place. So if your doing a regular hop from Oxford to Bournemouth, phone the relevant units en-route and see if you can get them to co-ordinate a route for you, more time involved but once you've done it it becomes sort of standard.
1. Certinally in terms of ad-hoc flights we file flight plans all the time for pilots through are AFTN and this costs them nothing. Although i suppose they are paying us for our air traffic control service. However these ad-hoc flights are not being billed by us anyway.
2. Operators are not obliged to follow airways by any legal boundry that im aware of. Obviously the operators would prefer their pilots to stay in nice safe CAS rather than dropping out into bandit country so to speak to know a few minutes off the flight time.
3. If your filing IFR on your flight plan your tied to using the correct routings. The systems are automatic most of the time. If you file IFR on a route you WANT to take but Eurocontrol say that route isn't a recognised routing from ABC-XYZ then they will give you the correct routing and like it or lump it. If everyone did everything they want it would be manic so its regulated. If they don't like the routing they will just give you the one they do like. This applies to your Oxford to Bournemouth flight.
Your other options are to file Y/Z on the plan and go IFR to VFR of vice versa but this is dangerous, if you are on route and meet some weather and say eek i wana stay IFR in these lovely airways they will most of the time chuck you out at your intended VFR point. So if i were you id leave this one alone.
You can always file IFR and change en-route so get your airways clearance go up fly it for however long you want then say i wana drop out of CAS and take up a radar service from Farnborough or whatever...
We 'organise' IFR cross-country hops for flights all the time. Alot of our flights want to reposition from us to east mids or like with the Crossair's they like to go off to the west through military to Ireland. They arn't very easy to organise the first time but once the units have seen the same flight doing the same thing an unwritten procedure falls into place. So if your doing a regular hop from Oxford to Bournemouth, phone the relevant units en-route and see if you can get them to co-ordinate a route for you, more time involved but once you've done it it becomes sort of standard.
Mmmmm - I'm not too sure about one or two of your answers there windswept...
Firstly, some operators need CAS to ensure that their ac are correctly insured...
Secondly, there are gaps now in the LARS, so would it be ideal to plan on unit to unit? Last thing you need is flying in an area of reduced radar coverage from below/side because you're operating on the limits of someones radar cover and something happens. see answer above.
Thirdly, You're comment about Euro-Control. personally, I take pride in making sure ALL my routes CFMU compliant, rather than just chuck any old rubbish into the system and make it someone else's problem...... PPPPPP (and not very professional either). Last thing you need to be doing is peeing off Brussels/Paris just because you're too bone idle to correctly route plan. I've seen it before, a short notice trip, chuck something into the system , hoping they'll give you an ACK and you get a REJ. Who's got egg on their face now?
Firstly, some operators need CAS to ensure that their ac are correctly insured...
Secondly, there are gaps now in the LARS, so would it be ideal to plan on unit to unit? Last thing you need is flying in an area of reduced radar coverage from below/side because you're operating on the limits of someones radar cover and something happens. see answer above.
Thirdly, You're comment about Euro-Control. personally, I take pride in making sure ALL my routes CFMU compliant, rather than just chuck any old rubbish into the system and make it someone else's problem...... PPPPPP (and not very professional either). Last thing you need to be doing is peeing off Brussels/Paris just because you're too bone idle to correctly route plan. I've seen it before, a short notice trip, chuck something into the system , hoping they'll give you an ACK and you get a REJ. Who's got egg on their face now?
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Tks Windswept & plans,
Interesting answers to all my questions, and it does still seem you have a choice between stringent Eurocontrol or hit and miss cross-country.
btw plans, on a completely different subject, you've got Jetplanner Dispatch set-up on 'basic' mode, so you won't get ACKs and MANs (because you have AFTN). It can do it though.
Interesting answers to all my questions, and it does still seem you have a choice between stringent Eurocontrol or hit and miss cross-country.
btw plans, on a completely different subject, you've got Jetplanner Dispatch set-up on 'basic' mode, so you won't get ACKs and MANs (because you have AFTN). It can do it though.
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To be honest, I'm not sure you need it, as you've got AFTN as a primary and SITA as a back-up. It would save you having to walk the 1.44 ft to the AFTN printer though...
p.s. it's Jeppy too, so it probably costs more...
p.s. it's Jeppy too, so it probably costs more...
