VS load control
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VS load control
hey guys i got a question. i know that load control for VS is done in either of two places. Manchester or Bangkok. (correct me if i'm wrong) but wat system do they use for Weight and Balance. i know they use a damarel product for check in . (BABEL TE) also if anyone that used to work for BMI before they made the move over to LH systems can they say wat they had for WAB. just doin a bit of research in the Load control area. thanks in advance.
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thanks for all the input. the company i work for handles both BD and BA so i been exposed to both DCS and LH WAB. seems like ba has built alot of functionality into their system. how widely used is dplan though. virgin uses it for all their flights. (is it the system that swissport uses for most of the airlines that it provided load control to or are they just using it on behalf of virgin. i know swissport uses axscontrol at alot of other airports.)
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Swissport W&B
AxsControl is not used by Swissport anywhere in the UK for W&B. It is used for a small number of airlines for checkin, but in those cases DPlan performs the W&B - there is a link in place between the two systems.
Swissport are also currently using DPlan in a number of European stations for W&B. I suspect the main reason would be ease of use. Compare 1 day training (DPlan) with upto 10 days (Axs).
Swissport are also currently using DPlan in a number of European stations for W&B. I suspect the main reason would be ease of use. Compare 1 day training (DPlan) with upto 10 days (Axs).
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I don't know the LH sytem for W & B - but Dplan 18 - Libra is brilliant. The best system I've used in the last eleven years.. I reckon, I could train someone to use it fairly well in a hour or two.
Try a week for Codeco etc.
Try a week for Codeco etc.
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Quoting Out Of Trim..
I don't know the LH sytem for W & B - but Dplan 18 - Libra is brilliant. The best system I've used in the last eleven years.. I reckon, I could train someone to use it fairly well in a hour or two.
I'm sure you could train somebody to use the system in an hour or two, but doesn't that tell you something..
The system itself is so basic and generic that it even basic functions that a proper DCS based system i.e amadeus or codeco can cope with, D Plan struggles with. Its simply cheap and nasty. You could train a 10 year old to use it very quickly, but thats because it removes the need for any load control /dispatch knowledge, and as a result you end up with with people using it who just see boxes on a screen that they can drag and drop, and are unaware of basic load control concepts
It simply isn't very good, or advanced. There is no in between options when using it, and no margins for adjustment.. just black or white and thats it!!
I don't know the LH sytem for W & B - but Dplan 18 - Libra is brilliant. The best system I've used in the last eleven years.. I reckon, I could train someone to use it fairly well in a hour or two.
I'm sure you could train somebody to use the system in an hour or two, but doesn't that tell you something..
The system itself is so basic and generic that it even basic functions that a proper DCS based system i.e amadeus or codeco can cope with, D Plan struggles with. Its simply cheap and nasty. You could train a 10 year old to use it very quickly, but thats because it removes the need for any load control /dispatch knowledge, and as a result you end up with with people using it who just see boxes on a screen that they can drag and drop, and are unaware of basic load control concepts
It simply isn't very good, or advanced. There is no in between options when using it, and no margins for adjustment.. just black or white and thats it!!
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I've got to totally disagree with you LHR16.
In the twenty+ years I've been in the industry, including as a weight & balance trainer, it's one of the best. The WAB's, BAB's & Codeco's are dinasours now and EDS have got a good product to move with the times. Why complicate systems with non sensical entries when you can have a clear and understandable view of your load & trim?
As far as advanced goes, this is probably the most advanced and comprehensive system of the modern era available. There are also plenty of options for adjustment!
In the twenty+ years I've been in the industry, including as a weight & balance trainer, it's one of the best. The WAB's, BAB's & Codeco's are dinasours now and EDS have got a good product to move with the times. Why complicate systems with non sensical entries when you can have a clear and understandable view of your load & trim?
As far as advanced goes, this is probably the most advanced and comprehensive system of the modern era available. There are also plenty of options for adjustment!
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Northern Hero..
My views are an opinion, and i am just stating my own personal preference. I am sure that you will find a number of people in the field that would agree with you.
I just wouldnt call it advanced. its okay for a for lets say a B737 travelling MAN-IBZ with 150 holiday makers and a few bags, because not a great deal of planning or thought is needed, but in my experience it is not AS geared up for say a A340-600 going from LHR-SFO., where a vast number of factors/options are required and will change. Again, this may simply just be customer specific, as i can only comment on my own use. Certain options are just not available, and use compared to babs/codeco etc simply involves a lot of huffing and puffing compared to a few simple keystrokes!
Again, i'm not saying anybody is wrong, but i can only say that from personal preference, i hate it!
My views are an opinion, and i am just stating my own personal preference. I am sure that you will find a number of people in the field that would agree with you.
I just wouldnt call it advanced. its okay for a for lets say a B737 travelling MAN-IBZ with 150 holiday makers and a few bags, because not a great deal of planning or thought is needed, but in my experience it is not AS geared up for say a A340-600 going from LHR-SFO., where a vast number of factors/options are required and will change. Again, this may simply just be customer specific, as i can only comment on my own use. Certain options are just not available, and use compared to babs/codeco etc simply involves a lot of huffing and puffing compared to a few simple keystrokes!
Again, i'm not saying anybody is wrong, but i can only say that from personal preference, i hate it!
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I totally agree with LHR16.
This system totally takes away the need for any experience or load control knowledge and it is just like a basic pc game which 8 year olds play on a regular basis, i could train my 7 year old neice to trim a flight, all she would need to do is make sure that it doesn't start flashing red.
That's why this system is ideal for CLP as you can recruit people from all walks of life without experience and use them for load control and handling companies naturally love it as it is cheap to train and sod the experience.
I like you Northern Hero have 20 years in the industry and systems like this depress me, i have used many different systems, Amadeus, Codeco, Sabre to name a few as well as a substained period of time doing nothing but manual load sheets and now i see the skills of the load controller being reduced to a drag and drop online game.
It's not as if this is a foolproof system either, it doesn't respect the specifics of certain aircraft, it just allows you plan randomly, (ie) if a certain aircraft has limitations on versions or stop limitations, fixed positions etc D-Plan lets you go ahead and plan all the same, it's not until you reach the aircraft that a problem may arise.
In my opinion this probably is the future of load control as like i say it is cheap, it is certainly not advanced and if this is the best we can do then god help us.
Give me a pen and calculator any day at least if my pen runs out i can get another and sort the problem myself.
Libra and CLP belong together as both have diminished the need for skill and training and both cause delays.
This system totally takes away the need for any experience or load control knowledge and it is just like a basic pc game which 8 year olds play on a regular basis, i could train my 7 year old neice to trim a flight, all she would need to do is make sure that it doesn't start flashing red.
That's why this system is ideal for CLP as you can recruit people from all walks of life without experience and use them for load control and handling companies naturally love it as it is cheap to train and sod the experience.
I like you Northern Hero have 20 years in the industry and systems like this depress me, i have used many different systems, Amadeus, Codeco, Sabre to name a few as well as a substained period of time doing nothing but manual load sheets and now i see the skills of the load controller being reduced to a drag and drop online game.
It's not as if this is a foolproof system either, it doesn't respect the specifics of certain aircraft, it just allows you plan randomly, (ie) if a certain aircraft has limitations on versions or stop limitations, fixed positions etc D-Plan lets you go ahead and plan all the same, it's not until you reach the aircraft that a problem may arise.
In my opinion this probably is the future of load control as like i say it is cheap, it is certainly not advanced and if this is the best we can do then god help us.
Give me a pen and calculator any day at least if my pen runs out i can get another and sort the problem myself.
Libra and CLP belong together as both have diminished the need for skill and training and both cause delays.
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The system itself is so basic and generic that it even basic functions that a proper DCS based system i.e amadeus or codeco can cope with, D Plan struggles with. Its simply cheap and nasty. You could train a 10 year old to use it very quickly, but thats because it removes the need for any load control /dispatch knowledge, and as a result you end up with with people using it who just see boxes on a screen that they can drag and drop, and are unaware of basic load control concepts
It simply isn't very good, or advanced. There is no in between options when using it, and no margins for adjustment.. just black or white and thats it!!
It simply isn't very good, or advanced. There is no in between options when using it, and no margins for adjustment.. just black or white and thats it!!
I find it refreshingly straight-forward and given that your fleet a/c database has been set up correctly; it should ensure you have no problem using it at all.
It still needs an experienced Load Controller to use his knowledge to best advantage. ie. If you don't know where the locks are on the aircraft you deal with or have no knowledge of how many bags a certain hold can take you could come unstuck but, compared to Codeco it is light years ahead. I want to be able to see what happens visually when changing a trim and D plan does that very well.
I also disagree with the view that it is OK for Narrow body ops only. I believe it really excels at Wide body load planning. If I need to change a bin or pallet position I can do it in seconds without remembering a string of totally unobvious commands and then (moving the load etc etc. FF SS LS - oh sh*t why can't I get a loadsheet! $$$ oh look it's out of trim etc etc.) DL31!
If you try and drag a ULD to a place that is unsuitable, overweight for position or would not fit; it won't allow you to do it.
So perfect result - All safe, and guides you to an optimum trim and very quickly too. I'd rather work with a tool that helps me rather than hinders me! So no delays then..
I guess it boils down to what systems you trained on first.. I trained using an old Dplan 16 system and even that seemed advanced compared to Codeco when I was forced to use it.
In fact Codeco was seen as downright dangerous by some of my colleagues at the time!
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Out of Trim said :
If you try and drag a ULD to a place that is unsuitable, overweight for position or would not fit; it won't allow you to do it.
Sadly i know that this is not true, this system does allow you to use versions that specific wide bodied aircraft don't allow, it also advises the reverse with regard to weight in certain positions, for example it restricts pallets when the aircraft manual or Boeing allow it to be used.
I agree that only properly trained Load controllers should use the system but this is contradictory to the comments that made by Out of Trim that it is easy to train (ie 2 hours), i also think we all know that in these days of cost cutting Airlines and Ground Handlers go for the cheapest option and that training is always one of the first things to be cut back on.
I wish it were the case that everyone using this system were properly load control trained but i bet that's not the case, i accept that everyone would have a basic knowledge and probably a basic course but not a genuine comprehensive understanding.
Libra just downgrades that all the more as Check-in agents look at the system during a lull in boarding and think that load control is a breeze and as long as the red lights don't flash then all is ok.
And when it comes to CLP using Libra, it would take a lot of convincing to get me to believe that everyone is properly trained, maybe in Manchester they are but in all these worldwide locations that now perform this function, i'm not so sure !
If you try and drag a ULD to a place that is unsuitable, overweight for position or would not fit; it won't allow you to do it.
Sadly i know that this is not true, this system does allow you to use versions that specific wide bodied aircraft don't allow, it also advises the reverse with regard to weight in certain positions, for example it restricts pallets when the aircraft manual or Boeing allow it to be used.
I agree that only properly trained Load controllers should use the system but this is contradictory to the comments that made by Out of Trim that it is easy to train (ie 2 hours), i also think we all know that in these days of cost cutting Airlines and Ground Handlers go for the cheapest option and that training is always one of the first things to be cut back on.
I wish it were the case that everyone using this system were properly load control trained but i bet that's not the case, i accept that everyone would have a basic knowledge and probably a basic course but not a genuine comprehensive understanding.
Libra just downgrades that all the more as Check-in agents look at the system during a lull in boarding and think that load control is a breeze and as long as the red lights don't flash then all is ok.
And when it comes to CLP using Libra, it would take a lot of convincing to get me to believe that everyone is properly trained, maybe in Manchester they are but in all these worldwide locations that now perform this function, i'm not so sure !
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hey everyone thanks for the info. one one more question though. flybe. wat do they use for weight and balance. are they centralized or each station does its own thing. thanks for the feed back.
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As far as im aware BE (flybe) are not centralised but i dont believe they have dispatchers as such. Just load controllers i think loadsheets are done on station.
D-Plan / Libra is windows based and is very eye friendly. Has mouse support (if your lucky enough to have one at a gate) which makes things easier. However and its a big however... because its so user friendly and easy to use (the person above is right you could literally learn in in a working day) you can make mistakes so its one of those bits of software never to get to cocky with or you'll have a wrong a/c reg on a loadhseet!
Restrictions for the a/c can be entered in "ops limits" before the turnaround. For things like take off weights or restricted landing weights etc etc.
Easier to lean than codeco and more user friendly both have aforementioned pluses and minuses though....
D-Plan / Libra is windows based and is very eye friendly. Has mouse support (if your lucky enough to have one at a gate) which makes things easier. However and its a big however... because its so user friendly and easy to use (the person above is right you could literally learn in in a working day) you can make mistakes so its one of those bits of software never to get to cocky with or you'll have a wrong a/c reg on a loadhseet!
Restrictions for the a/c can be entered in "ops limits" before the turnaround. For things like take off weights or restricted landing weights etc etc.
Easier to lean than codeco and more user friendly both have aforementioned pluses and minuses though....
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To many systems
I hope most ops staff would agree with me that we have too many syatems which essentially do the same job, for a loadcontroller to know 7 or 8 different systems, just because each customer airline is not aware of the capabilities of any other system is ludicrous, if someone doesnt know more than 1 or 2 systems, you cant blame him/her.
Dplan is a system which if more airlines take it on can diminish the need for so many others, I agree, there is a big HELLO with Dplan and that is the ability to make small mistakes which can very easily grow into great big howlers, not because of lack of knowlage etc, but because of making small typing errors etc and the need to check and double check Dplan loadplans and loadsheets is a must, your only one lick away from a serious cock up.
Dplan is a system which if more airlines take it on can diminish the need for so many others, I agree, there is a big HELLO with Dplan and that is the ability to make small mistakes which can very easily grow into great big howlers, not because of lack of knowlage etc, but because of making small typing errors etc and the need to check and double check Dplan loadplans and loadsheets is a must, your only one lick away from a serious cock up.
