Discretion
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Discretion
Can anyone point me in the direction of a definition of discretion and the cirumstances in which it can be used. CAP 371 is about as clear as mud and the company Ops manual is a direct copy of CAP371.
I was involved in a scenario where Ops and the Captains involved disagreed and I didn't know what exactly was and wasn't legal.
Thanks
TJ
I was involved in a scenario where Ops and the Captains involved disagreed and I didn't know what exactly was and wasn't legal.
Thanks
TJ
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I know it sounds a little bit sick but...... heres my ops-ie view....
Personally, (discretion is common sense from a crewing perspective) I find if you respectfully ask the crew if they are happy to exercise discretion and after explaining what the situ is - most of the time the crew are happy to use at least 2 hours (3 hours is pushing it! - we know that!)....
Ultimately and whatever the commercial consequences (and Despite what any other personal perspectives etc.) it is the "Captains" ultimate decision!
Explain more about situ?
Personally, (discretion is common sense from a crewing perspective) I find if you respectfully ask the crew if they are happy to exercise discretion and after explaining what the situ is - most of the time the crew are happy to use at least 2 hours (3 hours is pushing it! - we know that!)....
Ultimately and whatever the commercial consequences (and Despite what any other personal perspectives etc.) it is the "Captains" ultimate decision!
Explain more about situ?
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No probs with CAP371 in my view, if you want proper clarification try [email protected]. He is the CAP371 guru at the CAA 
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TurboJ
As Blackwidow puts it, it is something ops or crewing can reasonably ask a Commander to 'consider', but that is as far as it goes. It is a commanders responsibility to consider his whole crew's fitness to continue a flight into the discretionary period and that is something ops or crewing have no part in.
That said, it is crutially important that if a commander is acting on information from Ops regarding the operational situation and if that information influences his decision to exercise discretion, then Ops must ensure it is, as best they can, operationally realistic. For example, if your FDP/Discretionary period calculations are based upon a turnaround of 40minutes at an airport you best be sure you're going to achiveve that.
As Blackwidow puts it, it is something ops or crewing can reasonably ask a Commander to 'consider', but that is as far as it goes. It is a commanders responsibility to consider his whole crew's fitness to continue a flight into the discretionary period and that is something ops or crewing have no part in.
That said, it is crutially important that if a commander is acting on information from Ops regarding the operational situation and if that information influences his decision to exercise discretion, then Ops must ensure it is, as best they can, operationally realistic. For example, if your FDP/Discretionary period calculations are based upon a turnaround of 40minutes at an airport you best be sure you're going to achiveve that.
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Extending Duty Period
This may be quoted as a Commander's say, but this is where good CRM comes into play. If the other cockpit & cabin crew disagree, the majority makes the call (this from an old and distant crew rostering boss who was involved in the original CAP371 overview and implementation), this flight safety after all.
Sometimes a NO is commercially unacceptable, but heck we still have crew and punters alive. I ask you to argue against flight safety, and justify that argument.
PS. Yes the original CAP371 and modified BALPA industrial documents.
Sometimes a NO is commercially unacceptable, but heck we still have crew and punters alive. I ask you to argue against flight safety, and justify that argument.
PS. Yes the original CAP371 and modified BALPA industrial documents.
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Discretion?
To extend duty, or reduce rest?
My understanding is, the Commander has the authority to do either, given 'their' judgement of the fitness of the Crew to do either. Ops/Crewing or Crew input it irrelevant, a Command call.
My understanding is, the Commander has the authority to do either, given 'their' judgement of the fitness of the Crew to do either. Ops/Crewing or Crew input it irrelevant, a Command call.
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CAP 371 puts it like this (but of course it's what's in your own airline's FTL scheme that is guidance you operate to)
'An aircraft commander may, at his discretion, and after taking note of the
circumstances of other members of the crew, extend an FDP beyond that permitted in paragraph 13, Tables A, B, C, or paragraph 23, Table D, provided he is satisfied that the flight can be made safely.'
boredcounter, it would be less than CRM if a commmander took it upon himself to decide that his crew were fit for a duty off his own back without a bit of consultation and discussion.
You are of course correct though; Ops and Crewing's have no input into the actual decision to extend a duty. However, the information they give to the crew is important and must be realistic to base their decision on is.
There are occasions when Ops might just/should put a stop to a flight even though discretion has been agreed; on the basis that they may have no confidence that the flight can be completed within the extened FDP. I have seen this happen many times, particularly after diversions on a foggy morning where the crew want to get it back, ops want to get it back- but the delays that we all know about during bad weather can put you at risk of going beyond sensible discretion, i.e. over two hours in my view. Remeber also, that discretion that goes beyond two hours requires a report to the CAA giving the justification both by the pilot and the ops manager.
'An aircraft commander may, at his discretion, and after taking note of the
circumstances of other members of the crew, extend an FDP beyond that permitted in paragraph 13, Tables A, B, C, or paragraph 23, Table D, provided he is satisfied that the flight can be made safely.'
boredcounter, it would be less than CRM if a commmander took it upon himself to decide that his crew were fit for a duty off his own back without a bit of consultation and discussion.
You are of course correct though; Ops and Crewing's have no input into the actual decision to extend a duty. However, the information they give to the crew is important and must be realistic to base their decision on is.
There are occasions when Ops might just/should put a stop to a flight even though discretion has been agreed; on the basis that they may have no confidence that the flight can be completed within the extened FDP. I have seen this happen many times, particularly after diversions on a foggy morning where the crew want to get it back, ops want to get it back- but the delays that we all know about during bad weather can put you at risk of going beyond sensible discretion, i.e. over two hours in my view. Remeber also, that discretion that goes beyond two hours requires a report to the CAA giving the justification both by the pilot and the ops manager.
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no sig
'or Crew input it irrelevant'
Sorry, badly worded.
That is why it is Commander's discretion, not 'Crew' or 'Company' discretion was the intended meaning.
Bored
Sorry, badly worded.
That is why it is Commander's discretion, not 'Crew' or 'Company' discretion was the intended meaning.
Bored
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sorry, badly worded... my question was, if you are at base and you depart on discretion, is it acceptable? Car ops and ops manuals are a copy paste of each other and and very ambiguous, more than once I saw pilots leaving base while unknowingly on discretion, and being notified by their respective crewing departments very conveniently after departure...
thanks
thanks
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Its an old wifes tale that you cant leave base in discretion, but you should know about it?
I would expect any crew member to know there allowable FDP so they can decide if they are happy to discress, but at the end of the day it is the commanders discretion to exercise.
The Gimp
I would expect any crew member to know there allowable FDP so they can decide if they are happy to discress, but at the end of the day it is the commanders discretion to exercise.
The Gimp
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Extension of duty is ONLY for Unforseen circumsances after duty commences.
Example.
Night operation completely including WOCL: 11 hours max. Duty.
YOU CAN NOT plan any duty ( max. 2 sectors or your max duty is even reduced further) Over 11 hours.
NEVER.
If you have started your duty, and unforseen circumstances occure, like slot, weather delay etc.. Then the crew can extend their duty by ONE hour. Maximum 2 of these extensions can be done per week, again NOT PLANNED, but UNFORSEEN! This is very often misinterpreted by various Airline Operations AND CREW.
On the LAST sector, during the flight, one can extend still their duty with one hour ( tomget the aircraft at destination without having to divert) in case of contingencies ( think holding, de-icing delay before take-off, reroute)
Example.
Night operation completely including WOCL: 11 hours max. Duty.
YOU CAN NOT plan any duty ( max. 2 sectors or your max duty is even reduced further) Over 11 hours.
NEVER.
If you have started your duty, and unforseen circumstances occure, like slot, weather delay etc.. Then the crew can extend their duty by ONE hour. Maximum 2 of these extensions can be done per week, again NOT PLANNED, but UNFORSEEN! This is very often misinterpreted by various Airline Operations AND CREW.
On the LAST sector, during the flight, one can extend still their duty with one hour ( tomget the aircraft at destination without having to divert) in case of contingencies ( think holding, de-icing delay before take-off, reroute)
