12hr shifts
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...... seems like the gaffers are shafting you ops ladies and gentlemen on the leave issue. Mathematically:
* 12 hr shifts = 42 hr weeks
* office workers hours range from about 37.5 to 40 per week in UK, Taken over 52 weeks you can work out how many more hrs the ops people put in.
* it may appear that 12 hr ops people get more time off than office worker colleagues, but if you think about it for a mo, if the ops people work more hours ( than office people ), then they MUST get less time off work.
* the office people get to see mum and kids every night and every weekend. pros and cons here of course as 12 hr people can get long periods off - but it has been earned by concentrated periods of long work hours.
* if bank holidays are not credited to the 12 hr ops people, whether rostered on or off duty, ( read the last 6 words again - they are important to the argument ) - then those office workers - who are already working less hrs per annum than the 12 hr ops people - will also get an extra 10 days public holiday ( taking UK as example ) in comparison to their ops colleagues.
* To make an ops officer take 1.5 days holiday per vacation day off ( due length of working day ) is scandalous but seems to be common practice.
* perhaps you need that Union you were talking about some month ago?
* 12 hr shifts = 42 hr weeks
* office workers hours range from about 37.5 to 40 per week in UK, Taken over 52 weeks you can work out how many more hrs the ops people put in.
* it may appear that 12 hr ops people get more time off than office worker colleagues, but if you think about it for a mo, if the ops people work more hours ( than office people ), then they MUST get less time off work.
* the office people get to see mum and kids every night and every weekend. pros and cons here of course as 12 hr people can get long periods off - but it has been earned by concentrated periods of long work hours.
* if bank holidays are not credited to the 12 hr ops people, whether rostered on or off duty, ( read the last 6 words again - they are important to the argument ) - then those office workers - who are already working less hrs per annum than the 12 hr ops people - will also get an extra 10 days public holiday ( taking UK as example ) in comparison to their ops colleagues.
* To make an ops officer take 1.5 days holiday per vacation day off ( due length of working day ) is scandalous but seems to be common practice.
* perhaps you need that Union you were talking about some month ago?
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Vdg
Is it not correct that working a 4on 4off pattern who actually only work 182.5 days a year, whereas the office worker works 261 days. 365 -(52 x 2)= 261
That being the case a shift worker on 12 hrs is actually only being paid for 11 hrs, as you are entitled to 1 hr lunch-break (don't all shout 'if only', that just not true in all cases).
So 182.5 x 11 = 2007.5
&
261 x 8 = 2088
So who works more hours?
Yes admittedly some company's only work 7.5hr days.
Then there's the leave.
Taking that shift workers have 20 days & office workers have 20 days who has more time off.
Shiftworker - taking into account days off either side of shifts / 4 days leave = 12 days off. 20 leave days = 5 sets of shifts.
5 x 12 = 60days off (now you actually work 122.5!!!)(or 1/3 of the year!!!!)
office worker - with weekends either side / 5 days leave = 9 days off.
20 leave days = 4 weeks.
4 x 9 = 36 + 8 BH = 44 days.
So they work 217 days.
It' a minefield - still want to slap this on the HR's desk?
Is it not correct that working a 4on 4off pattern who actually only work 182.5 days a year, whereas the office worker works 261 days. 365 -(52 x 2)= 261
That being the case a shift worker on 12 hrs is actually only being paid for 11 hrs, as you are entitled to 1 hr lunch-break (don't all shout 'if only', that just not true in all cases).
So 182.5 x 11 = 2007.5
&
261 x 8 = 2088
So who works more hours?
Yes admittedly some company's only work 7.5hr days.
Then there's the leave.
Taking that shift workers have 20 days & office workers have 20 days who has more time off.
Shiftworker - taking into account days off either side of shifts / 4 days leave = 12 days off. 20 leave days = 5 sets of shifts.
5 x 12 = 60days off (now you actually work 122.5!!!)(or 1/3 of the year!!!!)
office worker - with weekends either side / 5 days leave = 9 days off.
20 leave days = 4 weeks.
4 x 9 = 36 + 8 BH = 44 days.
So they work 217 days.
It' a minefield - still want to slap this on the HR's desk?
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Lala
cheers mate. You must be management to look at it like that. What an angle. Forget the compo for not being able to work flexi, like the office bods, sure Eng and F/crew would love to finish at 1600 also.
Let us round down to 182 working days.
182 unpaid handovers @.5hours each end of the shift = 182 hrs p.a.
182 unpaid lunches not taken, 364 HRS so far........That' over an office woring month..........or @ gbp11.00 per flat rate Hr about 5 grand a year, pro rata for those below, hhhhmmmmmm Thanks Lala.
Now let us be consultants 24-8 hrs per day..
Shoot, I thought I was in the wrong job.....
There's money out there somewhere, just no bugger pays it.....
------------------
Speak the truth,accept the truth.....and only use one handle
cheers mate. You must be management to look at it like that. What an angle. Forget the compo for not being able to work flexi, like the office bods, sure Eng and F/crew would love to finish at 1600 also.
Let us round down to 182 working days.
182 unpaid handovers @.5hours each end of the shift = 182 hrs p.a.
182 unpaid lunches not taken, 364 HRS so far........That' over an office woring month..........or @ gbp11.00 per flat rate Hr about 5 grand a year, pro rata for those below, hhhhmmmmmm Thanks Lala.
Now let us be consultants 24-8 hrs per day..
Shoot, I thought I was in the wrong job.....
There's money out there somewhere, just no bugger pays it.....
------------------
Speak the truth,accept the truth.....and only use one handle
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....... the mathematics referred to earlier are indisputable. They are empirical and no amount of gobbeldygook can change that.
One response missed the point completely in that it is not the number of days worked or days off that count - rather, it is the hours worked vs hours off duty. Two simple examples shd make this clear:
1. Person A works 1 minute per day for each day of the year. So, he has had no days off but has worked a total of about 6 hours in the year. Not bad eh??
2. Person B ( Bionic Man?? ) works 24 hours per day for 100 days and then has 265 days off. This person will have put more time in at the office in those 100 days than the average office worker does in a year.
For simplicity, lunch breaks and leave were left out of the original posting. So long as one compares like with like, it doesn't change things. ( e.g office worker gets 1 hrs paid lunch break per day and 12 hr ops officer gets a similar pro rata paid break. )
QED??
One response missed the point completely in that it is not the number of days worked or days off that count - rather, it is the hours worked vs hours off duty. Two simple examples shd make this clear:
1. Person A works 1 minute per day for each day of the year. So, he has had no days off but has worked a total of about 6 hours in the year. Not bad eh??
2. Person B ( Bionic Man?? ) works 24 hours per day for 100 days and then has 265 days off. This person will have put more time in at the office in those 100 days than the average office worker does in a year.
For simplicity, lunch breaks and leave were left out of the original posting. So long as one compares like with like, it doesn't change things. ( e.g office worker gets 1 hrs paid lunch break per day and 12 hr ops officer gets a similar pro rata paid break. )
QED??
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BC - just because I have put thing into perspective does not necessary make me management, but on this occasion you would be right I only have figures in this manner as this was now it was put to me when I 'negotiated' with management many many years ago.
VDG - if you can't dispute the figures what other way is there to put it. Every position, within the company's I have worked, includes an element of 'overtime'. This applies equally to shift workers for handovers, and office workers who end up working late! Whilst this does not apply to every single office worker in the interests of fairnes I have treated it as such.
Thrust-Bump so how many hours have u accumulated? Type rating? at a quess R/C SEP
JB - surely u have an opinion being an ex-ops person?
[This message has been edited by lalapanzi (edited 06 July 2001).]
I only have figures in this manner as this was now it was put to me when I 'negotiated' with management many many years ago. VDG - if you can't dispute the figures what other way is there to put it. Every position, within the company's I have worked, includes an element of 'overtime'. This applies equally to shift workers for handovers, and office workers who end up working late! Whilst this does not apply to every single office worker in the interests of fairnes I have treated it as such.
Thrust-Bump so how many hours have u accumulated? Type rating? at a quess R/C SEP
JB - surely u have an opinion being an ex-ops person?
[This message has been edited by lalapanzi (edited 06 July 2001).]
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Lala - don't you know what a Barbiejet is? Shame on ya. ERJ145 and fully type rated thank you. Shame life is up North, rather be back at home in the South. Oh well - one day maybe 
What's the story behind the question on Ops 12hr shifts. Trouble brewing ???
What's the story behind the question on Ops 12hr shifts. Trouble brewing ???
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Did you actually ready anything of whats been posted or have you been too busy slagging me off to understand it?
As for type ratings - how do you propose to keep your r/c sep current now that its sold??
[ 07 July 2001: Message edited by: lalapanzi ]
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Lala - wot gives you the impression that the company has been sold. The blue barbiejets are here to stay me thinks. You talk from the rear once again. Get the facts right then ask questions
As for 12hr shifts and your question, I simply asked why the indepth study. Most people are happy it seems to work the 12hrs and have the time off. Suppose now that you are pushing pens, you want to get the best for your troops do you ??
As for 12hr shifts and your question, I simply asked why the indepth study. Most people are happy it seems to work the 12hrs and have the time off. Suppose now that you are pushing pens, you want to get the best for your troops do you ??
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TB - oh but I know exactly what I am talking about, just trying to be polite and not expose you for the fraud that you are. To explain if I must:
R/C = radio control
SEP = single engine piston.
Now that is about the sum total of your flying experience. If you are still having difficulty in working this out, you can always drop me a 'private message' rather than waste all these peoples time with your garbage you are so good at spouting.
R/C = radio control
SEP = single engine piston.
Now that is about the sum total of your flying experience. If you are still having difficulty in working this out, you can always drop me a 'private message' rather than waste all these peoples time with your garbage you are so good at spouting.
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lala
thought so.....
TB
Barbie = CRJ, we got 'em first.....also exclude Scud and Junior Jet Fleet......
Are ERJ's not known as church steeples, coz every lighting bolt hits them........still
Oh yeah, 12 Hour shifts was the topic.
ERJ do one?
[ 09 July 2001: Message edited by: boredcounter ]
thought so.....
TB
Barbie = CRJ, we got 'em first.....also exclude Scud and Junior Jet Fleet......
Are ERJ's not known as church steeples, coz every lighting bolt hits them........still
Oh yeah, 12 Hour shifts was the topic.
ERJ do one?
[ 09 July 2001: Message edited by: boredcounter ]
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OK lala - 1 nil but hey, it's all a bit of fun or have you lost your sense of humour since working in cloth cap valley No hard feelings hey
By the way, I don't work at CBG ! Figure that one out......
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BC - I'm with you on this one. I would prefer things left as they are, and only just trying to gather other points of view. My thanks for your impute
TB - sorry is this your way of apologising. A bit of fun - so those allegations untrue So does that mean your not a 'pilot'?
TB - sorry is this your way of apologising. A bit of fun - so those allegations untrue
So does that mean your not a 'pilot'?
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Well Lala, yes I'm sorry for the things said out of place. I do fly though and it aint RC In fact the barbiejet thing wasn't a wind up. See, even "frauds" like me can make it in life Still, no harm done I hope. So how is life in cloth cap valley (CVT) ?? 
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Let me throw a few more numbers into the equation...
A company I used to work for had a 4 on / 4 off shift pattern plus overtime.
The senior management decided to do away with overtime and in compensation increased the salary by a couple of thousand a year.
But here's the real sting in the tail...
All 4 Ops Controllers had 25 days holiday a year , which meant each person had to cover someone else for 25 extra shifts.
This meant that although you were entitled to 25 days leave, you also had to work an extra 25 days.
Management refused to see the staff point of view that this arrangement meant too many working hours/days per year.
Within 6 months 3 out of 4 Controllers voted with their feet and departed.
I now work 4 on 4 off again, but without the nazi regime and find it suits my lifestyle very well.
A company I used to work for had a 4 on / 4 off shift pattern plus overtime.
The senior management decided to do away with overtime and in compensation increased the salary by a couple of thousand a year.
But here's the real sting in the tail...
All 4 Ops Controllers had 25 days holiday a year , which meant each person had to cover someone else for 25 extra shifts.
This meant that although you were entitled to 25 days leave, you also had to work an extra 25 days.
Management refused to see the staff point of view that this arrangement meant too many working hours/days per year.
Within 6 months 3 out of 4 Controllers voted with their feet and departed.
I now work 4 on 4 off again, but without the nazi regime and find it suits my lifestyle very well.
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Lala/Thrust-Bump ...... Very entertaining, but why don't you slag each other off in private. Boring for those of us not in the "know"
Regards shifts...yes the 12 hours were great for me (Albeit a few years ago) The time off I got was fantastic, and high quality.
I was a bit boracic in those days and was able to take a second job, as did some of my colleagues. EU law (And in my current situation, Greek Law) sometimes is so restictive, and is not in favour of the employees. In many many years, I could count on the fingers of one hand (Well maybe two) the number of people that did not like shift work or 12 hour shifts. Truth be told, the early "Up" was the norm and it was rare to actually work the full time, but don't tell management.!!
Regards shifts...yes the 12 hours were great for me (Albeit a few years ago) The time off I got was fantastic, and high quality.
I was a bit boracic in those days and was able to take a second job, as did some of my colleagues. EU law (And in my current situation, Greek Law) sometimes is so restictive, and is not in favour of the employees. In many many years, I could count on the fingers of one hand (Well maybe two) the number of people that did not like shift work or 12 hour shifts. Truth be told, the early "Up" was the norm and it was rare to actually work the full time, but don't tell management.!!
