Crew Fatigue - are they worked too hard?
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Crew Fatigue - are they worked too hard?
I'm sure you have all been monitoring the goings on in R&N, regarding our colleagues in the flight deck and their so called drinking habits. I watched the C4 docu with great interest. Even my other half, who knows absolutely nothing about aviation culture, was not fooled into believing this was common practice. (Leaving aside the points on entrapment and accuracy,)
However one thing that did occur to me was this.
Over the years I have been involved in many cases of crew members complaining that they are worked too hard, do not have enough rest, too few days off, and so on. It's the old cry of 'fatigue'.
However half the time the crew member involved, I personally know, as been out on the piss till the small hours nearly every night of their tour. I know this from either being there myself, or talking to friends who were on the nightstops, telling me 'what a blinding night it was'.
Now I am in no way trying to suggest these people did not observe the rules, or reported for work intoxicated with little sleep. My point being is that why should we feel sorry for these tired crew members when half the time they have for 'rest' is used up out on the town.
Sure, everybody is entitled to unwind after work or go out for the night. And nobody wants to sit and just stare at four hotel rooms for the night. But, in some cases, too much partying, imho, over a week and then blaming their tiredness on us.
More importantly could this distract from the real cases of fatigue, and the subsequent safety issues?
Comments? Conclusions? Hate mail?
Cheers
[This message has been edited by You splitter (edited 14 October 2000).]
However one thing that did occur to me was this.
Over the years I have been involved in many cases of crew members complaining that they are worked too hard, do not have enough rest, too few days off, and so on. It's the old cry of 'fatigue'.
However half the time the crew member involved, I personally know, as been out on the piss till the small hours nearly every night of their tour. I know this from either being there myself, or talking to friends who were on the nightstops, telling me 'what a blinding night it was'.
Now I am in no way trying to suggest these people did not observe the rules, or reported for work intoxicated with little sleep. My point being is that why should we feel sorry for these tired crew members when half the time they have for 'rest' is used up out on the town.
Sure, everybody is entitled to unwind after work or go out for the night. And nobody wants to sit and just stare at four hotel rooms for the night. But, in some cases, too much partying, imho, over a week and then blaming their tiredness on us.
More importantly could this distract from the real cases of fatigue, and the subsequent safety issues?
Comments? Conclusions? Hate mail?
Cheers
[This message has been edited by You splitter (edited 14 October 2000).]
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I think we have all seen the happenings described above. I have little sympathy for those crew members who party hard and end up being a flight safety hazard, but unless someone turns up for a flight obviously under the influence of something, there is little one can do unless the person in question declares themselves unfit. There is little of that done in my experience as the logical conclusion to persistant declarations of "unfit due to severe party" would doubtless be a precursor to a one sided conversation with the chief pilot, followed by directions to the door. In my experience, it didn't happen very often.
However, I have also seen genuine fatigue due to a series of night flights and disturbed sleep patterns during the day. The pilot in question was NOT a party animal, although enjoyed winding down for a short time with the rest of us in the hotel bar after a days work. This pilot did the correct thing and told me he considered himself unfit for another flight due to fatigue. Ok, so it totally screwed our crew plot and there was no one to replace him so we lost out on a trip (ACMI) and the company lost money. However, it was the RIGHT thing to do and I applaud him for doing it and would not have dreamed of trying to persuade him otherwise. Of course, if we had enough crews in the first place......
Doc C
However, I have also seen genuine fatigue due to a series of night flights and disturbed sleep patterns during the day. The pilot in question was NOT a party animal, although enjoyed winding down for a short time with the rest of us in the hotel bar after a days work. This pilot did the correct thing and told me he considered himself unfit for another flight due to fatigue. Ok, so it totally screwed our crew plot and there was no one to replace him so we lost out on a trip (ACMI) and the company lost money. However, it was the RIGHT thing to do and I applaud him for doing it and would not have dreamed of trying to persuade him otherwise. Of course, if we had enough crews in the first place......
Doc C
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I agree partly. Any crew member who is out partying every night until the small hours and then complains to crewing about fatigue, well, that is not on.
However, we all whinge when we are tired, that doesn't mean we are not fit to fly.
But when away, as you say, who wants to sit watching the 4 walls of their hotel room? Personally I feel a need to unwind with the rest of the crew, as I feel that socialising and having a good meal, maybe a few drinks, actually helps me to relax, gets rid of stress, and helps me sleep better, thus reducing tiredness. But it depends on just what the duties are like. If you get to your hotel and you have 11 hours until official report at the airport, that usually means you actually have about 10 hours at the hotel. As you say, you need to unwind and you need to eat, and before that you need to shower and change, so you go and do that and now you only have 6 hours before report. So yes, you are going to be tired. Of course, you could go straight to your hotel room, eat straight away from room service and immediately go to bed, but if it were me, I couldn't do that as I just wouldn't sleep. So I go and socialise with the rest of the crew.
Most crew members are fairly sociable, and many a crew go on about having a good night, that is a bit different from staying out clubbing for many hours, which I wouldn't do.
But if on min rest every night, its difficult not to get tired.
However, we all whinge when we are tired, that doesn't mean we are not fit to fly.
But when away, as you say, who wants to sit watching the 4 walls of their hotel room? Personally I feel a need to unwind with the rest of the crew, as I feel that socialising and having a good meal, maybe a few drinks, actually helps me to relax, gets rid of stress, and helps me sleep better, thus reducing tiredness. But it depends on just what the duties are like. If you get to your hotel and you have 11 hours until official report at the airport, that usually means you actually have about 10 hours at the hotel. As you say, you need to unwind and you need to eat, and before that you need to shower and change, so you go and do that and now you only have 6 hours before report. So yes, you are going to be tired. Of course, you could go straight to your hotel room, eat straight away from room service and immediately go to bed, but if it were me, I couldn't do that as I just wouldn't sleep. So I go and socialise with the rest of the crew.
Most crew members are fairly sociable, and many a crew go on about having a good night, that is a bit different from staying out clubbing for many hours, which I wouldn't do.
But if on min rest every night, its difficult not to get tired.
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GF,
Yes I agree with you. Most people will be better rested going to bed after unwinding with the rest of the crew.
I've gone to bed early in the past because I've got a long day coming up, and just layed there twidling my thumbs. Get rid of the stress and sleep soundly. Good advice!
It is never good to roster (or be rostered) min rest the whole time. However on some occasions that is not always the case, and if a crew have fourteen hours rest it's up to them how they spend it. Long time since I did crewing but i seem to remember something in CAP371 about responsibilty of crew to ensure adequate rest is achieved within the given period.
Maybe as you say, with more sensible rostering crews would nearly always have the chance to relax, unwind and still have enough hours to use up in slumberland. Back to the age old problem of what you have to work with I suppose.
Yes I agree with you. Most people will be better rested going to bed after unwinding with the rest of the crew.
I've gone to bed early in the past because I've got a long day coming up, and just layed there twidling my thumbs. Get rid of the stress and sleep soundly. Good advice!
It is never good to roster (or be rostered) min rest the whole time. However on some occasions that is not always the case, and if a crew have fourteen hours rest it's up to them how they spend it. Long time since I did crewing but i seem to remember something in CAP371 about responsibilty of crew to ensure adequate rest is achieved within the given period.
Maybe as you say, with more sensible rostering crews would nearly always have the chance to relax, unwind and still have enough hours to use up in slumberland. Back to the age old problem of what you have to work with I suppose.
