Anyone doing a Bidding System for their Crews
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Anyone doing a Bidding System for their Crews
Hello there,. .anyone out there doing a Bidding System for their Crew Members? (eg. Bidline or Pref.Bidding?). If yes, what system(s) do you use for this?
We are currently in the process to evaluate the pro's/con's of such a system. Further curious on what was the "return of investment"? (eg happier crews, less moans/groans, etc...)
Cheers, Norbert
We are currently in the process to evaluate the pro's/con's of such a system. Further curious on what was the "return of investment"? (eg happier crews, less moans/groans, etc...)
Cheers, Norbert
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Hi there Cargoflyer,. .we at Bwee are getting aquainted with the Bourneman suite of products, which, amongst other things, boasts a PrefBid system. The company's full name is David Bourneman Assoc., and they have apparently done this with a number of Airlines, including, I believe, Cathay, Quantas & Air Jamaica amongst others whose names escape me for the moment.
The Implementation process is dragging along somewhat, the problem for now is getting the system to take on the finer points of our regs, which are an amalgam of our Pilots agreement and the local regs, which are just a rip-off of the CAP 360 regs.
So unfortunately we do not have a really clear picture of realistic moans & groans yet.
Keepyaposted.
The Implementation process is dragging along somewhat, the problem for now is getting the system to take on the finer points of our regs, which are an amalgam of our Pilots agreement and the local regs, which are just a rip-off of the CAP 360 regs.
So unfortunately we do not have a really clear picture of realistic moans & groans yet.
Keepyaposted.
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FYI,
David Bourneman & Associates (DBA) was recently bought out by Sabre. So the future of the DBA portfolio is anybodys guess.
There are a multitude of packages out there for managing Crew Bidding all have pro's and con's so my advise is shop around.
Whooaahh!!!
David Bourneman & Associates (DBA) was recently bought out by Sabre. So the future of the DBA portfolio is anybodys guess.
There are a multitude of packages out there for managing Crew Bidding all have pro's and con's so my advise is shop around.
Whooaahh!!!
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<img src="frown.gif" border="0"> Air NZ have a Preferential Bidding system for pilots and a slightly different system for Flight Attendants. The pilots' system was sold to us (the pilot group) as a means of achieving an individual's desired lifestyle ( be that high hours, short TODs,desired destinations, or whatever). It turned out to be a good optimiser (for the Company) but a company blowjob in terms of crew lifestyle. . .If you are a manager, go for it. . .If you are a pilot, don't touch it with a bargepole.
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Hello All,. .thanks for your comments.. .. .Cribble: Would you like to talk more about the system that AirNZ uses? What vendor did the choose to supply the Bidding System? Is it a Preferential Bidding or a BidLine (US) system?. .. .Anyone out there with more experience on a "Bidding System" (may it be BidLines or Pref-Bid). .. .Thanks
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Cargoflyer. .. .Try Geneva <a href="http://www.geneva.co.nz" target="_blank">www.geneva.co.nz</a> . .. .Available is specific duty/day off bidding, General Lifestyle preferences & Line Bid (a very inefficient and crappy way of Crew Scheduling) as well as complete resource planning and CMS. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
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Hello C_W:. .thanks for the hint on Geneva.co.nz - looks interessting. However their client base seems to be somewhat South-Pac orientated.. except for BritMed in the UK. . .Any knowledge (you are able to share) on why BritMed selected a tool from such distance place?!. .. .Anyhow, I'll send a message to their sales folks asking for information.. .. .Cheers, Norbert
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CF. .. .BMed will be the first of a few. Also check out flyastraeus.com & their latest news announcements.... .. .Can't answer for BMed but assume the norm of price, functionality & platform would have influenced the decision making process. I'm sure they looked at all suppliers.... .. .C_W <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />
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There are two kinds of quality of bidding systems. The systems that have been mentioned are all of the lower quality bidding applications. There are three high end ones of which we at Navtech own one called CLASS. This system was recently acquired and does not have a large customer base. We have just completed an installation at Jetblue and are working with a carrier on a non-seniority based system.
A high end bidding system is designed to satisfy the crew members. If this is not the case then it is either the crew pairings or the work rules which are a problem or the quality of the system.
We are working with a carrier now on the development of a non-seniority based system. For more info, please e-mail me directly.
A high end bidding system is designed to satisfy the crew members. If this is not the case then it is either the crew pairings or the work rules which are a problem or the quality of the system.
We are working with a carrier now on the development of a non-seniority based system. For more info, please e-mail me directly.
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So what were the 2 kinds of "quality bidding systems", or did I miss something in the translation?
What are the other 2 "high end" systems/engines you refer to?
I think you'll find Messenger, other systems can achieve non-seniority or rotating senioity in their bid receipt and allocation, including some of the afore mentioned in this thread...
Hope the quality of the Navtech option is not as Mickey Mouse as your post...
The only thing I find agreeable in your post is the influence of pairing construction and rule sets. Effect of rule set though can be minimised if you have a "quality bidding system"!!
CW
What are the other 2 "high end" systems/engines you refer to?
I think you'll find Messenger, other systems can achieve non-seniority or rotating senioity in their bid receipt and allocation, including some of the afore mentioned in this thread...
Hope the quality of the Navtech option is not as Mickey Mouse as your post...
The only thing I find agreeable in your post is the influence of pairing construction and rule sets. Effect of rule set though can be minimised if you have a "quality bidding system"!!
CW
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The Geneva product from what I know is a good all around crew management system.
I think that what you'll find is that there are three companies that have concentrated on the crew bidding optimization just as there are a number of companies that have decided to concentrate efforts on creating high-end crew pairing optimizers. These high-end pairing optimizers offer demonstrable results over a good all around system. If this was not the case then there would be no need for the AOS, Ad Opt and Carmen's of the world to exist. The high-end bidding systems work in conjunction with a good all around suite but to expect that all around suite to offer best or breed in every aspect of crew management is a dream that has not yet come into reality.
Usually I find vendors that need to insult others as those that offer little value to their customers. I hope that this is not the case with the product that you represent.
I think that what you'll find is that there are three companies that have concentrated on the crew bidding optimization just as there are a number of companies that have decided to concentrate efforts on creating high-end crew pairing optimizers. These high-end pairing optimizers offer demonstrable results over a good all around system. If this was not the case then there would be no need for the AOS, Ad Opt and Carmen's of the world to exist. The high-end bidding systems work in conjunction with a good all around suite but to expect that all around suite to offer best or breed in every aspect of crew management is a dream that has not yet come into reality.
Usually I find vendors that need to insult others as those that offer little value to their customers. I hope that this is not the case with the product that you represent.
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User of Ad Opt system from 1992 till today
At Air Transat, we have been a long time user of Ap Opt products.
In 1993, we were using the fleet man. sys., the crew pairing and later in 1994, the crew personalized bidding system ( some kind of manual clicking of days off and prefered flights as per pilot requests from month to month.)
I was personnally involved in the development and use of the first generation.
Air Transat has been using their pref. bidding system since 1996 with success up until today. It is efficient but complex .
One comment which may sound harsh but straight talk:
We fly mainly weekends . It is evident that the majority will fly weekends even if you have the best system in the world.
The system is efficient for the company and the crews provided you dont have too much garbage in....
They can be reached at their home office: 514-342-0580
In 1993, we were using the fleet man. sys., the crew pairing and later in 1994, the crew personalized bidding system ( some kind of manual clicking of days off and prefered flights as per pilot requests from month to month.)
I was personnally involved in the development and use of the first generation.
Air Transat has been using their pref. bidding system since 1996 with success up until today. It is efficient but complex .
One comment which may sound harsh but straight talk:
We fly mainly weekends . It is evident that the majority will fly weekends even if you have the best system in the world.
The system is efficient for the company and the crews provided you dont have too much garbage in....
They can be reached at their home office: 514-342-0580
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Hello K_L:
thanks for the comments on the AirTransat way of handling a crew bidding system. As you mentioned you were involved from scratch on the building/implementation of the system at AirTransat do you have any hints/clues as to what needs to be looked at from a company point of view?
Doesn't AirTransat have a greek system in place for their crewing issues? How does this interface with your CBS? Anything you'd like to share on that one?
Cheers, Norbert
thanks for the comments on the AirTransat way of handling a crew bidding system. As you mentioned you were involved from scratch on the building/implementation of the system at AirTransat do you have any hints/clues as to what needs to be looked at from a company point of view?
Doesn't AirTransat have a greek system in place for their crewing issues? How does this interface with your CBS? Anything you'd like to share on that one?
Cheers, Norbert
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Roster systems
I can tell you how to organise a leave system that allows almost 100% of pilots getting exactly what they want every time. It does work provided you dont allow your rostering dept to interfere too much.
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Cargoflyer.BA have recently installed Carmen Bidding System for their LGW crews.Carmen are based in Gothenburg,Sweden.It is a preferential bidding system.Give them or BA a call for more details.
I beleive KLM and parts of SAS also use it.
I beleive KLM and parts of SAS also use it.
Geneva is rubbish.
It doesn't have the capability to do much useful and the promises made at the sale pitch are light years from the reality when it is installed.
Do yourself a favour and give it a wide berth
It doesn't have the capability to do much useful and the promises made at the sale pitch are light years from the reality when it is installed.
Do yourself a favour and give it a wide berth
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Hi Charter Lad,
thanks for the tip - going see BA tomorrow in Heathrow.
Yes, SAS Commuter have Carmen, KLM has an interface according to their Crewing Manager..
Cheers
thanks for the tip - going see BA tomorrow in Heathrow.
Yes, SAS Commuter have Carmen, KLM has an interface according to their Crewing Manager..
Cheers
