Difference between dispatcher and "dispatcher"

[opsbloke]

Ok, since this topic is continually arising......
UK Dispatcher = Load Control / Turnaround Coordinator ( prepares loadsheet, ensures aircraft is loaded IAW the loadsheet, and numerous other GROUND functions prior to departure. meaning that once the aircraft has left the airport, no longer plays an active role in the flight.)
US Dispatcher = Flight Planner ( prepares flight plan, eg: route, min reqd fuel, selects alternate airfields based on company operating specs etc, files flight plans with ATC, holds a government issued Airman certification. responsible for the ENTIRE Dispatched flight, legally.)
Obviously therse are just the 'bones' there are plenty of other differenes, the fact is the only thing the US/UK Dispatcher has in common is the title....
Now, I have probably opened a can of worms here with this post, and as usual, people are going to comment on which is better that the other etc etc...well, if you know anything about the UK/US Dispatcher roles, you will know that each do a vital job for their carrier regardless of what the title is.
Brgds

[opsbloke]

In my opinion there is no need for flt watch if everybody is doing the job correctly. With the modern systems (data linked) the fltcrew should be able to retrieve the latest data by themselves. There is allways a "monitoring" of the flts if somethink happens out of the ordinary.
Anyway why should I as a lowly payed dispatcher do the job of a mostly overpayed pilot?!?!
Really??? I would think a bit of proffesionalism would come into it somewhere....And I'm sure the Capt of the 777 you have released on 120 min ETOPS has an engine failure at 40w in November would agree with you!!!

[opsbloke]

Hi Lauterdale (isn't Disneyland just around the corner?)
You got me on the "wind up' part, but honestly
it irritates me a lot if some US Guy is telling me how superior his outdated by technology "Babysitting" is to present Flightplanning in Europe. Anyway there is not a single country that is 100% working acc. JarOps! We all got our Systems to cover for certain contingencies. The Examples are mostly **** ups by the crew.
If i.e. some pilot try to land at a closed A/P he should never take off in the first place!!!
"encountered severe wx" please don't tell me it wasn't in the TAF!!! This idiot just did not fuel enough to cover for it!!!
What should I say to a pilot who is flying for hours in a damaged acft?? I am NOT their Babysitter, got it??
And I do not need any "joined whatever" to tell the capt. what is best for him if he is about the screw up totally!!
Think about it before question somebodys work ethic!!!!
My Philosophy btw is that a Capt with more than double my pay (And I am doing well after 20years, its just a matter of comparison) together with the FO should be able to decide on this own. He will get my best preparation and then its up to him.
whats wrong with that? Please dont give me the "Teamwork" crap!! Dont get me wrong, if there is a problem I am there 100%.
Thats my Job, but we do not need this "joined" part!!!
Happy planning!
Broken airvraft,???? what, dont you have an MEL in your office? THATS your job.... as for being a 'babysitter' well, really that exactly what the job entails, I suggest if you really feel that bitter about pilots pay, then leave your job with your 20 odd years seniority, i bet your colleagues will be glad to reduce their workload.....

[Schibulsky]

o.k. opsbloke lets play the cut and paste game. anyway looks like you only copy stuff instead of reading it.

Really??? I would think a bit of proffesionalism would come into it somewhere....And I'm sure the Capt of the 777 you have released on 120 min ETOPS has an engine failure at 40w in November would agree with you!!!

What should I do then??? Hold his hand verbally so he doesnt **** his pants???
He got a valid etops alternate that he will use because I choose it well as a professional dispatcher. Do you question your planning because the reason for all this planning just happened?? You gave him the plan already, just follow that plan without ******* it up, simple as that!!!

Broken airvraft,???? what, dont you have an MEL in your office? THATS your job....

Hello, this was an example of a guy experience an inflight problem.
As to my knowledge the MEL is not of very much interest once you are flying!!! And keeping his acft flying and handle an inflt problem is his problem. I will give him assistance as I already mentioned!

as for being a 'babysitter' well, really that exactly what the job entails,

It is not even close to babysitting, dude! according to my manuals and my understanding this is kind of a "working together" thing, NOT a "you can cry on my shoulder, I will hold yor hand" thing especially when the crying guys otherwise think they are the center of the flying universe and the sun is shining out of their asses!!!

And finally:
I suggest if you really feel that bitter about pilots pay, then leave your job with your 20 odd years seniority, i bet your colleagues will be glad to reduce their workload.....

I am not bitter about their pay, trust me! Just stating a fact.
Are you really working at ops?? Your reasoning reminds me a lot of pilots who usually play the "you are envious" card once they run out of arguments!!!
And trust me, my colleagues are thinking the sun IS really shining out of MY ass!!!

[Lauderdale]

I sincerely hope the PPRUNE admins take a close look at all the posts Shilbulsky has 'contributed'. Especially the one in the Sky Blue thread.

This is supposed to be a serious forum/platform for industry proff/enthusiasts. Posts like these really are a turn off for when it comes to continue actively participating here.

I have no intention to reply to his/her postings - I just sincerely hope that the majority of people out there agree that we do require to show a level of respect when we post on this site as I would hate to see this level of standard continue.

[Schibulsky]

Hi Lauderdale, nice to know that YOU are setting the standards here!
If you do not like my "direct" style just ignore it or go to a Disneyforum with the Kids.
You will not believe it, but after the first post I got some mails applauding me for telling the bigmouth American what the "old World" is thinking of his superior babysitting!!
And I really cut back on my language when it comes to Mr. Pichler!!!
He is responsible for some of my friends losing their Jobs and for possibly the near End of a great Airline.
Whats wrong with telling everybody about it?
I have seen some more explicit posts on the Forum about Gulfair managers!!
If you cannot stand a different opinion stay away from professional forums!!
Dont whine about it, try some arguments. I did not see any argument that is even close to proving any of my points wrong!!!
The baseline of all the pathetic remarks so far is "if you do not blow sugar up the pilots ass, you are not a professional dispatcher"
Do not get me wrong, I do NOT have a problem with pilots at all, lots of close friends between them!!!
So stop crying and try reasoning for a change!!!

P.S. talking about respect (from your side!)
you were telling:
that my philosophy leads to accidents
that my fellow LBA Dispatchers were on your side
some other dude was questioning my work ethics
and ask me to quit my job so my colleagues will be glad!

GREAT argumentativ skills

[Lauderdale]

I rest my case.......

[Schibulsky]

no dude, you are giving up cause you are running out of arguments!!!
If you would just TRY to prove me wrong on just one topic, that would
be showing some respect by having a discussion with me !!!
But you choose to "rest your case" HOW dramatic
sad sad sad...........

[ralle72]

come on mates, donßt let it end like this.
just got me some crisps and beer and i have plenty of time, too

[Captb747]

Absolutely.

This thread was started a while ago and I thought it was a very good debate and I for one enjoyed contributing to it. I disagreed with some people but agreed with others and it was left at that.

Lets not see a good thread/debate ruined by some petty slagging match.

[Schibulsky]

Hi Capt747.
I also enjoy having a heated discussion, but some guys/girls idea of a debate is reacting to opposite opinions by questioning the ethics and character of the other.
My style might be a bit rough, but so is the Aviation Business, its not Sunday School!!
When its crunch time and its about exchanging arguments this guys/girls are whining about not being respected instead of taking on the challenge.
Its getting even more pathetic when they are calling for the pprune admin to kick me out!
Sorry, but this is Kindergarten style!!

[Lauderdale]

Shibulsky - you going to be in Brussels this week? You can buy me a beer or two......

[Schibulsky]

Hi Lauderdale,
no, I am in Frankfurt end of the month.
But in Brussels I would rather buy you wine (in the far left corner of the CFMU Canteen, if I remember correctly) because they put funny syrup and other stuff in their beers!
But did you really f... up the c..t Pichler to earn it???

[Lauderdale]

Haha! No I did not! lol

BTW Shibulsky contrary to what you assume (Ricky Gervais springs to mind) I am not from the States.

Very much from the UK here (LHR).......now who won the war again?

I am sure you will take this in very good humor and you seem like a decent gzr after all!

[Schibulsky]

Oh my gawd, and I thought UK in your profil means Upper Kentucky!
How stupid of me!!
But honestly it is hard to take with humor if your proffessionality and your work ethic is questioned and then nobody is willing to discuss it further!
And when it comes to Mr. Pichler thats definetely the end of all humour!
You see Colleagues who were busting their ass for the Airline for more than 14years being laid off because of one dumbf...k CEO.
Then this pr..k is leaving with a golden handshake to f... up the next Airline. This REALLY pisses you off, believe me!!!
Anyway lets leave it for now....
C U somewhere for a beer, maybe....

[boredcounter]

K

• Maersk Air Boeing B737, from Birmingham, UK, to Copenhagen, Denmark, December 1999, encountered severe weather, had outdated weather information, destination and alternates closed; diverted with a fuel emergency, landing in Billund, Denmark with 70 knot winds. If it had had to make another go around, it likely would have run out of fuel.


I was there, were you? I was nearly de-briefed were you!

Bored

[mutt]

So are flight deck crew actually trained and aware and up-to-date with dangerous goods requirements?

We operate under FAR121, crews are given DG training initially and in recurrent, including FA's!

He got a valid etops alternate that he will use because I choose it well as a professional dispatcher. Do you question your planning because the reason for all this planning just happened?? You gave him the plan already, just follow that plan without ******* it up, simple as that!!!

This sounds like you give him the CFP and forget about him, this certainly isnt the way it happens in 121, in fact we have specially training ETOPS dispatchers.

The one thing that i have noticed recently is that our dispatchers want technology to DO EVERYTHING and totally remove their requirement to think or make decisions!

Mutt

[Schibulsky]

mutt and boredcounter, are you not able to read a complete post and try to understand the whole message or do you just pick up a piece of it and then just fire away your bull****?!?!
Now lets take apart your crap:
The dimwits who were flying that Maerskflt were happily taking off with outdated WX???? its a fuc...g 2hr flt. Do you really want to tell me that the WX changed that much from briefing to landing?? They screwed it up, the cockpit crew and the dispatcher!!! This is pisspoor fuelplanning, nothing else. This has nothing to do with what we are talking about!!!

Did I tell you in any way that I forget about the flt after briefing???
I told you there is a kind of monitoring, that includes i.e. checking the ETOPS Altn if they were prone for deterioration. That is what the crew is doing via Datalink anyway, so its just a backup! If some info reaches the OCC that is affecting a flight then we take all action neccessary.
But for the ETOPS flight that encounters an engine failure it follows the etops scenario like it is planned. ITS THE ONLY REASON FOR THE ETOPS PLANNING, REMEMBER!!!!! So AGAIN what shall I do for them besides inform the diversion airport and arrange everything for them????

BORED BORED BORED.............

P.S. and PLEASE dont gimme any crap about wording, style or respect....I need FACTS, thats what Aviation is all about

[kellmark]

Schibulsy;
Interesting post. You have a real "colorful" attitude with anyone who disagrees with you. But "colorful" or not, you can still be flat wrong.
On the Maersk flight, you seem to say that the weather can't change in two hours. That is ignorant on its face. The weather can change in ten minutes. And there was no flight dispatcher monitoring the situation for the Maersk crew. And you also say that a crew has a datalink and can always get what they need. That is not always true either. Some aircraft don't even have ACARs much less anyone even trying to give them critical information. They depend purely on ATC sources, which are not really equipped for it. The Swiss SAAB 2000 accident at Werneuchen near Berlin is a classic example of exactly that, where they were vectored right into the bad weather by ATC and all airports were closed to them. They wiped the aircraft off landing at a closed airport with no fuel left. And the airline had absolutely no flight watch/monitoring system to give them critical information.
You only talk about ETOPS flights and enroute alternate planning. Don't you look at the enroute weather for fronts, lines of bad weather or turbulence and the weather at the destination as well? How about ATC delays,reroutes or other issues that change dynamically during a flight? Seems you only want to look at one thing, the ETOPS alternate. But a flight can easily get into a diversion or worse anywhere from origin to destination. You seem to assume that the plan that has been done is bulletproof and needs no other thought. It will always work. My experience in aviation is exactly the contrary, that you have to assume that things will change when they are least expected, no matter how good the "plan".
I know of a number of situations where a crew without flight watch/monitoring got themselves into a difficult issue when they were confronted with it without warning, when they could have been warned by a flight monitoring system early enough to prevent the problem. They wound up diverting or declaring an emergency without need in many cases because they did not have the proper support from a qualified flight dispatcher.
To have a proper flight watch/flight monitoring system with a qualified flight dispatcher is a known benefit to flight safety. It prevents the flight crews from being surprised by changing events and gives them critical support when things do happen. It is just as important as TCAS or GPS or CRM or any other proven flight safety initiative. It is all about reducing risks. And I think that you are on the wrong side of the argument, in spite of your "colorful" assertions. To simply say that the crew screwed up, and should have known better or taken more fuel, ignores the genuine benefits of a proper flight dispatch watch/monitoring system, which provides up to date information and also minimizes human errors in operational decision making. It is exactly because it recognizes that flight crews are not always perfect and don't always have the proper information which makes it an important safety system. It is called positive operational control. And it works.
Best Regards and Not Bored at All.
Kellmark

[Schibulsky]

O.K. at least someone trying to start a discussion....
If the Maersk pilots depart with outdated FCST and do NOT fuel for the 2nd altn with valid fcst, they (incl. Dispatcher) plainly screwed up royally!!
Yes the WX can change within 10min, but not from forecasted above minima to closed Airport. I am from that area and the fcst are pretty accurate.
Anyway a look at the WXmap should give him some hints about the WX, thats why LBA dispatcher got 200+ hours of Met lessons!!
You dont have to be a rocket scientist to expect winter conditions in December!!
BTW I called your Babysitting outdated because most modern Airlines DO have Datalink nowadays!!
The Werneuchen flt was not vectored into bad wx, it was planned (they had the critical info before T/O!!!) with marginal wx conditions and minimum fuel
caused by pressure of the management to save fuel. You do NOT f..k around with bad WX and min fuel, thats a basic rule in flt planning!!!
The only thing the dispatcher could have done to prevent the crash was to call the acft back after T/O for refueling.
I do not "only" talk about ETOPS Alternate, it was an example brought up by the other dude!!!!
And for the twentieth time: I DO flight monitoring!!!! I also check for frontal systems etc. etc., we check altn wx once they are airborne, but only as back up.
Anyway once in flight the applicable minima are way lower than in the planning, remember?
And you wont believe it, we do inflt recalculations , and even reroutes for bad slots, when did I tell you I "fire and forget"
The most important moment is when you agree on routing, altn and final fuel, thereafter its just damage control if the **** hits the fan. There is no inflt fueling yet in civil aviation!
In my Experience 99% of the flights operate as planned with just minor hickups, I dont know where YOU are working to state the contrary.
It happens only every odd years that an aircraft gets into a unforeseen situation that threatens the safety, its mostly of technical nature.
And with the help of modern technology it was always handled easily by experienced dispatchers.
But we do foreward all new info thats important to the flts, you keep mixing up modern redundant flight monitoring with your old fashioned
Flight watch/shared responsibility.
Anyway we are not that far apart in our opinions, you were probably just fired up by my "MickeyMouseLicense" remark.
Just as I was pissed off by the remarks, the FAA system is soooo far better than JAR OPS.
It was a long day at work that turns AGAIN out to be full of BABYSITTING and BREASTFEEDING, thanks to the guys in uniform.
But that keeps my job secure...

Happy Planning, and Happy Monitoring!!!