Flight Dispatcher - Would you like to be like this?
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EM
OK, I used the word required, when actually it says, should be based on relevant parts , to me that leaves little option as to what the training syllabus should be based on.
I am pleased that the Orange one is still taking training seriously, but it illustrates my point, which I know we are both agreed upon; that the UK is still lacking in any clear direction as to ops officer training if the only option considered is to send the boys and girls to the States for a US based dispatcher licence- I ask you what relevance has the study of FAR part 121 to the European operation? The dispacth licence is valuable, don't get me wrong, but a European qualifcation would be much more so.
[ACJ OPS 1.205
Competence of Operations personnel
See JAR-OPS 1.205
If an operator employs Flight Operations Officers in conjunction with a method of Operational Control as defined in JAR-OPS 1.195, training for these personnel should be based on relevant parts of ICAO Doc 7192 D3. This training should be described in Subpart D of the Operations Manual. It is not to be inferred from this that there is a requirement for Licensed Flight Dispatchers or for a flight following system.]
OK, I used the word required, when actually it says, should be based on relevant parts , to me that leaves little option as to what the training syllabus should be based on.
I am pleased that the Orange one is still taking training seriously, but it illustrates my point, which I know we are both agreed upon; that the UK is still lacking in any clear direction as to ops officer training if the only option considered is to send the boys and girls to the States for a US based dispatcher licence- I ask you what relevance has the study of FAR part 121 to the European operation? The dispacth licence is valuable, don't get me wrong, but a European qualifcation would be much more so.
[ACJ OPS 1.205
Competence of Operations personnel
See JAR-OPS 1.205
If an operator employs Flight Operations Officers in conjunction with a method of Operational Control as defined in JAR-OPS 1.195, training for these personnel should be based on relevant parts of ICAO Doc 7192 D3. This training should be described in Subpart D of the Operations Manual. It is not to be inferred from this that there is a requirement for Licensed Flight Dispatchers or for a flight following system.]
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We are singing off the same hymn sheet Nosig. I concur with your previous post. Should we do anything about the lack of a UK based ground school for Ops Officers ?
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CM
You are still hung up on this 50/50 decision thing. Let me clear up a few things for you. From my days with a 121 flag carrier the Ultimate and over-riding responsibility was with the aircraft commander, and still is. He may not however override a command that would endanger life.
So it is still the pilots show in the US and this is clearly reflected in pay scales. Having said that, training of dispatchers in the US instills mutual professional confidence that is not found in our country.
Nosig and I have met and discussed this in the past. Formal,regulated and accredited training of operations officers in this country is not only desireable it should also be madatory.
Regards
EM
You are still hung up on this 50/50 decision thing. Let me clear up a few things for you. From my days with a 121 flag carrier the Ultimate and over-riding responsibility was with the aircraft commander, and still is. He may not however override a command that would endanger life.
So it is still the pilots show in the US and this is clearly reflected in pay scales. Having said that, training of dispatchers in the US instills mutual professional confidence that is not found in our country.
Nosig and I have met and discussed this in the past. Formal,regulated and accredited training of operations officers in this country is not only desireable it should also be madatory.
Regards
EM
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Back to Square One
Well we all agree to formal training of the operations staff and in my company it was done in house with sub contractors being hired to fill in where applicable.....all was carried out with full CAA approval,
CM...I continue to support you on this issue of decision making...ultimately you are live with the action and the only one who can look out and see exactly what is what......obviously if ops make recommendations to you based on their own knowledge with the bigger picture in mind then as you rightfully have stated you can still overide this in the interest of a/c and pax safety.....etc
It is rather sad that in the event an accident occurs you can say with great confidence that the Captain will be guilty until proven guilty!!!!!!!!! I have witnessed many many incidents where senior management and other third parties duck for cover under such a situation......how many of our experts have witnessed a disaster and had to deal with the aftermath?
This also raises another issue......how many of our followers out there can tell me the implications of two senior Captains flying together when not on a training flight....maybe one of our more qualified dispatchers could answer this question?
Maybe this should be in another thread but its good to have the practical background of our followers as opposed to the theoretical ones. More food for thought I would like to mention being a SAR Coordinator was in regards to a major incident in Bass Strait Australia some time ago......An a/c ditched and one of the crew survived the initial impact and activated his beacon.
The qualified fully licenced CAA experts then initiated procedures as per their manuals for such emergencies and a fiasco of untold proportions commenced.
They followed their training and their manuals by the book....in the meantime a passing Ansett a/c picked up the beacon and circled the survivor...he actually waved at them. after many hours of Bureaucratic b... s... the Ansett a/c had to leave location due to fuel remaining.....by the time a search a/c (Fixed wing and Helicopter) was located the poor chap disappeared below the waves.
Now we come back to how red tape procedures can sometimes cripple what should have been a routine remedy.......because of CAA training they had to follow procedures and didnt use their own initiatives.....everyone knew that the adjacent Oil & Gas offshore field was supported by many choppers and the CAA didnt attempt to call upon any of the bases that scattered the coast.
The purpose of this story is to explain that no matter how formal or informal you want to make aviation it still take a senior operations man to take things by the horns and fix the problem or the captain flying his a/c.....no book can resolve such issues just your own experience and the fact that you are there in situ and know the true situation.....I have seen so many people die for no reason at all in both the Military and Civil Aviation so once again...if we here have a good system why change it....by all means put Jo Bloggs on a course or whatever and then leave it up to the CAA to vet each airline, which is what they do anyway.....no doubt this will stir up a few brain cells!!??
Peter
CM...I continue to support you on this issue of decision making...ultimately you are live with the action and the only one who can look out and see exactly what is what......obviously if ops make recommendations to you based on their own knowledge with the bigger picture in mind then as you rightfully have stated you can still overide this in the interest of a/c and pax safety.....etc
It is rather sad that in the event an accident occurs you can say with great confidence that the Captain will be guilty until proven guilty!!!!!!!!! I have witnessed many many incidents where senior management and other third parties duck for cover under such a situation......how many of our experts have witnessed a disaster and had to deal with the aftermath?
This also raises another issue......how many of our followers out there can tell me the implications of two senior Captains flying together when not on a training flight....maybe one of our more qualified dispatchers could answer this question?
Maybe this should be in another thread but its good to have the practical background of our followers as opposed to the theoretical ones. More food for thought I would like to mention being a SAR Coordinator was in regards to a major incident in Bass Strait Australia some time ago......An a/c ditched and one of the crew survived the initial impact and activated his beacon.
The qualified fully licenced CAA experts then initiated procedures as per their manuals for such emergencies and a fiasco of untold proportions commenced.
They followed their training and their manuals by the book....in the meantime a passing Ansett a/c picked up the beacon and circled the survivor...he actually waved at them. after many hours of Bureaucratic b... s... the Ansett a/c had to leave location due to fuel remaining.....by the time a search a/c (Fixed wing and Helicopter) was located the poor chap disappeared below the waves.
Now we come back to how red tape procedures can sometimes cripple what should have been a routine remedy.......because of CAA training they had to follow procedures and didnt use their own initiatives.....everyone knew that the adjacent Oil & Gas offshore field was supported by many choppers and the CAA didnt attempt to call upon any of the bases that scattered the coast.
The purpose of this story is to explain that no matter how formal or informal you want to make aviation it still take a senior operations man to take things by the horns and fix the problem or the captain flying his a/c.....no book can resolve such issues just your own experience and the fact that you are there in situ and know the true situation.....I have seen so many people die for no reason at all in both the Military and Civil Aviation so once again...if we here have a good system why change it....by all means put Jo Bloggs on a course or whatever and then leave it up to the CAA to vet each airline, which is what they do anyway.....no doubt this will stir up a few brain cells!!??
Peter
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CM
I played right into your hands. Thank you for pointing out my error
It should have read; he (the captain) may not endanger lives by overriding a dispatchers decision.
That's better. Now can we all move on please.
Regards
EM
I played right into your hands. Thank you for pointing out my error
It should have read; he (the captain) may not endanger lives by overriding a dispatchers decision.That's better. Now can we all move on please.
Regards
EM
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Chesty Morgan
Yes, of course, the commanders resonsibilites are clear and there should no doubt about that fact in any UK operations room, however, under FAR 121 it is different as we all know.
You know however, that where an option/s, acceptable to the commander exists, for example, the choice of alternate/s during poor weather; then ops control has a role to play in working with the commander to decide the best course of action- from an operational and commercial perspective. But for them to be able to work at your level they need trained and that is the core issue in this lenghtly post.
Thank you for the support on Ops training, but can I ask a favour of you, please have a chat with your Chief Pilot and Ops Manager and ask how far things have gone in your airline with respect to ops officer training to ICAO 7192 D3- you'd be a a popular chap with the ops guys and gals and be sure to get all your request days off granted!
Yes, of course, the commanders resonsibilites are clear and there should no doubt about that fact in any UK operations room, however, under FAR 121 it is different as we all know.
You know however, that where an option/s, acceptable to the commander exists, for example, the choice of alternate/s during poor weather; then ops control has a role to play in working with the commander to decide the best course of action- from an operational and commercial perspective. But for them to be able to work at your level they need trained and that is the core issue in this lenghtly post.
Thank you for the support on Ops training, but can I ask a favour of you, please have a chat with your Chief Pilot and Ops Manager and ask how far things have gone in your airline with respect to ops officer training to ICAO 7192 D3- you'd be a a popular chap with the ops guys and gals and be sure to get all your request days off granted!
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Interesting if not a slightly stormy thread at times. Interesting because it partly outlines the reasons I left the aviation business to take up a post with a police force as a radio controller, something I've done for 19 years now.
I came into the aviation career back in 1979 when I was very lucky in getting a job, in ops, with Transamerica at Gatwick. They worked the american dispatch/ops system, although as they didn't have any sched services they didn't need a licenced dispatcher. At Gatwick we were responsible for any flight between the NAT and INO areas. We didn't do a full set of flight plans, we did however cover short flights within our area, working out the route and fuel requirements. We gave routing info to Oakland (HQ) for diplomatic clearances and then applied for them. We flight watched the aircraft, passing wx info and reroutes and arranged diversions. When TV srated their JFK/AMS sked service Oakland has licenced dispatchers but at LGW we were very much part of the process.
Mcuh to my regret TV ceased operating in 1986 and I ended up going to AE for 6 months. AE ops, while enjoyable, was not the same kettle of fish and nowhere near as interesting but thats mainly due to the bus service type of operation, rather than the one off charters that TV did, so when I got a chance to join Sussex Poilce for the same sort of money I jumped ship which was about a year before their collaspe.
To be honest I would not leave what I'm doing now, too old to jump back again and I'm still having fun telling policemen where to go and getting away with it.
clicker
I came into the aviation career back in 1979 when I was very lucky in getting a job, in ops, with Transamerica at Gatwick. They worked the american dispatch/ops system, although as they didn't have any sched services they didn't need a licenced dispatcher. At Gatwick we were responsible for any flight between the NAT and INO areas. We didn't do a full set of flight plans, we did however cover short flights within our area, working out the route and fuel requirements. We gave routing info to Oakland (HQ) for diplomatic clearances and then applied for them. We flight watched the aircraft, passing wx info and reroutes and arranged diversions. When TV srated their JFK/AMS sked service Oakland has licenced dispatchers but at LGW we were very much part of the process.
Mcuh to my regret TV ceased operating in 1986 and I ended up going to AE for 6 months. AE ops, while enjoyable, was not the same kettle of fish and nowhere near as interesting but thats mainly due to the bus service type of operation, rather than the one off charters that TV did, so when I got a chance to join Sussex Poilce for the same sort of money I jumped ship which was about a year before their collaspe.
To be honest I would not leave what I'm doing now, too old to jump back again and I'm still having fun telling policemen where to go and getting away with it.
clicker
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There is little doubt that most European Flight Dispatchers/Ops Officers would like to have some industry-wide recognised qualification (logically under JAR). One overlooked obstacle might be the airlines/handling agents themselves, since they would have to start paying this personnel decently - for a change - in order to attract/retain their services 
Cheers
Cheers
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İf the standard of qualification is at the appropriate level then indeed airlines will have to pay a salary that reflects a person holding the qualification. If airline managers stop for a moment and think about the role of their ops officers they will readily see that it makes commercial sense to have qualified and experienced people at the helm.
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hi nosig
It's strange isn't it that we were all trying to get this sorted out in the 80's and yet here we are in the new century and really not any further forward.
Are we getting too old when we remember all this and nothing has happened?
Dispatched the Icelandair the other day and bumped into El Massey. She send her regards.
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5552N0426W, isn't that the truth, in fact for me it goes back to 74-75 with the BGFOO as you will remember. Drop me a PM when you have time with your news.
EM
Yes the course is still available and the teething problems of years ago long since sorted, see their website for details.
EM
Yes the course is still available and the teething problems of years ago long since sorted, see their website for details.
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I wonder if there is anyone out there that is running an account with GCNS for the 7192D3 course? If there is would you like to share your experiences and opinions with us.
My latest dealing with the SRG is that
This is welcomed news. Time for all you GOPS PH to brush up on your D3 submissions. As to a trade FAA AD licence towards a 7192 licence I would be interested to hear your opinions.
Rgds
EM
My latest dealing with the SRG is that
It is an inevitability that FOO/FD's in the UK will be required to be licenced by the CAA/EASA in the not to distant future
Rgds
EM
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EM
That is indeed interesting and welcome insight into SRG thinking on the subject.
As for a trade of FAA AD license, I don't believe the FAA license would or should be accepted in Europe, it is far too US specific; that said, perhaps some exemptions from parts of any new requirement might be given and generic subjects- Met theory as an example, but subjects like air law and regulations form such an important part of a FOO/Dispatcher training that a straight swap would be wrong.
That is indeed interesting and welcome insight into SRG thinking on the subject.
As for a trade of FAA AD license, I don't believe the FAA license would or should be accepted in Europe, it is far too US specific; that said, perhaps some exemptions from parts of any new requirement might be given and generic subjects- Met theory as an example, but subjects like air law and regulations form such an important part of a FOO/Dispatcher training that a straight swap would be wrong.
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Dispatcher training in Canada
Hello,
I saw this thread about dispatching within the USA and it interested me as I'm looking into taking the dispatcher exams in Canada.
I spoke with Transport Canada and they told me that all the study material (handbooks etc...) are available via their website (some are purchased) and that there is no particular school per se which I need to attend and I can do a self-study course on my own and then pass the dispatcher exams. Is this possible? I don't have any flying experience but I do have a certain familiarity with commercial airline procedures.
Also, what kind of career track can I expect in Canada after I pass the dispatcher exams? I am 42 years old now - is this too old? I have some idea from having read info on the HR and Development Canada website but still would like professionals' opinions.
John
I saw this thread about dispatching within the USA and it interested me as I'm looking into taking the dispatcher exams in Canada.
I spoke with Transport Canada and they told me that all the study material (handbooks etc...) are available via their website (some are purchased) and that there is no particular school per se which I need to attend and I can do a self-study course on my own and then pass the dispatcher exams. Is this possible? I don't have any flying experience but I do have a certain familiarity with commercial airline procedures.
Also, what kind of career track can I expect in Canada after I pass the dispatcher exams? I am 42 years old now - is this too old? I have some idea from having read info on the HR and Development Canada website but still would like professionals' opinions.
John
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CM has gone!!
Reading this thread, you may be a little confused!!!!
Posts are deletable..... And that is what's happened!!!
By me and others.....
So fill in the gaps as you please and enjoy!!!
Though it's not as enjoyable as it was before!!!
Posts are deletable..... And that is what's happened!!!
By me and others.....
So fill in the gaps as you please and enjoy!!!
Though it's not as enjoyable as it was before!!!
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Byrna
You are of course aware that the Canadian flight dispatch licence requirements will be different to the US. Both have their own qualifications, but I do suspect that you might be able to do the FAA licence somewhere in Canada to. No flying experience required. I played a small part in setting the syllabus for the Canadian licence some 26 years ago and as I recall it was very much akin to the ICAO 7192 D3 standards rather than the US licence, what it today I am afraid I don't know.
Career wise you need advice from someone there, its been too long since I was dispatching in Canada for me to be able to advise. Try posting your questions on the Canada forum here on PPRUNE and you might get a response.
You are of course aware that the Canadian flight dispatch licence requirements will be different to the US. Both have their own qualifications, but I do suspect that you might be able to do the FAA licence somewhere in Canada to. No flying experience required. I played a small part in setting the syllabus for the Canadian licence some 26 years ago and as I recall it was very much akin to the ICAO 7192 D3 standards rather than the US licence, what it today I am afraid I don't know.
Career wise you need advice from someone there, its been too long since I was dispatching in Canada for me to be able to advise. Try posting your questions on the Canada forum here on PPRUNE and you might get a response.
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Byrna,
im in canada too and not from your old less than 40 ...
anyway there is at least two curses to get the help for the exams and federal licenses ...
i got the luck to get close the only college in quebec doing the curse ... it s 900 hours learning ... in the same time york university in two weeks and 1900 cad will help you too ... so i think there is also a college in BC doing it but this is not so easy and piece of cake transport canada told you ... weather and meteo is not so easy and limitations for aircraft is not easy to plus etops training ....
pm me if you need more infos and references for materials ...
for the job there are some but you will accept to be far from big cities most of the time ..
see you
im in canada too and not from your old less than 40 ...
anyway there is at least two curses to get the help for the exams and federal licenses ...
i got the luck to get close the only college in quebec doing the curse ... it s 900 hours learning ... in the same time york university in two weeks and 1900 cad will help you too ... so i think there is also a college in BC doing it but this is not so easy and piece of cake transport canada told you ... weather and meteo is not so easy and limitations for aircraft is not easy to plus etops training ....
pm me if you need more infos and references for materials ...
for the job there are some but you will accept to be far from big cities most of the time ..
see you
