Is it a good career?
 

My son is 15 and fairly mid-stream academically. He takes his GCSEs next summer and the question is ‘What next?’. As with most lads of his age, he doesn’t really have a clue.

We’ve done the tour of our local 6th form colleges which are good, but he’s not certain (despite my misgivings) that he wants to continue with his academic studies.

We also took him to Northbrook College at Shoreham Airport where they run aircraft engineer courses and we were both very impressed with the facilities and enthusiasm of the staff. As I understand it, they recommend a 1 year NVQ course and then, if still interested, a further 3 year ‘licensed’ course which I think leads to a JAR-recognised qualification.

Any thoughts or recommendations? The guy that showed us around said that courses run by airlines such as BA and VS were massively over-subscribed and I doubt if my son would get high enough grades with his GCSEs to get to the head of a long queue – and from that I presume he would most likely need to find work in a GA environment.

The big plus I can see is that he would gain a formal qualification and have a ‘portable’ job. The downside would be an end to his ‘formal’ studies, which would narrow his options if he decided aircraft engineering wasn’t for him.

It’s a big decision to make, so any input from the people already in would be very welcome.

Cheers!

I wouldn't say it was a good career anymore but, despite the fact there can be a significant pay difference between the Airlines and GA, if your son can get into a GA organisation then he may well prosper in time. The thing to remember is not to become "fixated" with the Airlines as a career. There are plenty of other engineering requirements for the many and varied means of aviation that exist.

Despite the fact he would be doing an aircraft engineering course, he should still learn the basics of engineering per se and thus have a reasonable grounding for other avenues if he wishes and is still young enough of course----and if he has any sense--and this from an A & C person----he will get into the Avionics world rather than the mechanical.

I suppose it all depends on what other prospective careers he has / will look at after all, but I don't think he would do too badly in GA / Biz or the Helo world overall.

I would echo ASFKAP's sentiments. Adding that starting at the bottom will involve years of study and working bad shifts in poor conditions to get decent money. If your lad is desperate to mend aeroplanes he will put up with it. If he is doing it because he can't think of anything better, I would stongly advise against it!
Eaven my love of the job is sorely tested at two in the morning with my arm down a 737 toilet in a leaky glove!
TRY to persuade him to stay at school.

Rgds Dr I.

The reality of modern life is that there are few, if any, reasonably well paid uneducated, unskilled jobs any more - those went out with union powers in the 1980s.

If your lad is not well suited to education, then training (becoming "skilled" - a term which traditionally meant having completed a craft apprenticeship) is the way ahead.

Apprenticeships still exist in many fields, including aircraft engineering - although the competition for them is clearly fierce. Academic qualifications are part of the equation, but more importantly your lad will need to show a real enthusiasm for the area of work - which in aviation means either maintenance, or design/build (one of the most sought after, for example, is at Westland Helicopters - details are usually on their website, another excellent one is with the various MoD establishments supporting whatever activities go on there - try Boscombe Down for example). [This is despite an academically snobbish educational establishment doing it's best to brainwash kids into believing that only the academic route to advancement is worthwhile.]


So, the best advice that I can offer (and I've done both routes - apprenticeship then academic) is that yes, aircraft engineering has got potential to be a great career - but it's not an easy option, and the only people who'll find their way through are those who are enthusiastic enough to really WANT this career. That applies to both routes. So, probably the best you can do for your son right now is to help him find something he really wants to do, and then everything you can to foster that enthusiasm - in whatever area of activity he wants to aim at.


I've got two (step)sons, now 17 and 23. The older is the less academically bright of the two, but was directed - he knew (knows) what he wanted and now has a good degree and is developing a career in his chosen direction. The younger is brighter than his brother and (I'd judge) probably cleverer than me (and I've got a doctorate). He however has failed at every junction to find anything he really wanted to do, as a result scraped poor GCSEs, got thrown out of sixth form college for not working, and looks about to repeat the trick elsewhere - leaving him unemployed and unemployable, to the deep frustration of all around him.

So for my money it's motivation that counts, not academic ability. If he can find it, the Northbrook course (or an apprenticeship) may suit very well, and even if he then decides it's not what he wants to do, may suit him to future career choices better than a degree would.

And if he's not going to do anything specific with them, why on earth should he waste two years doing A-levels?, which are intended as university entrance qualifications anyway. He'd be far better off doing something, anything, that's actually vocational.

(Sorry for the lecture, but as you may guess I've developed strong views on the subject.)

G

Biggles;
Your son wouldnt necessarily need outstanding grades to get an apprenticeship, my GCSE grades were nothing to shout about but I managed to get on one. Having been down the college route and then the apprenticeship I would say that IF he wants to get into aircraft maintenance the apprenticeship is the better route of the two, certainly with respect to getting work experience on live aircraft and being paid to 'learn your trade' is always a bonus.

I was at Northbrook from 90-92 and did the Aircraft Maint Course. It was a great way to learn all about Aircraft Maintenance, the college has also good contacts for getting you work experience on Aircraft.i It was a great start to my career and I worked in Engineering until 1999, when got my first flying job. Since then I have flown for a few companies and employers always liked the fact that I had my Engineering background. If your son wants a career in aviation its a great way to start, and then he can decide his path.

Hope that helps.FM

I had two choices all those years ago. Apprenticeship as a Plumber or as an Aircraft Electrician. I made the wrong choice and have had a wildly exciting, infinitely varied, deeply interesting, and poorly rewarded career.

As a plumber I'd have a long ago become my own boss, with apprentices of my own slaving away at the grotty tasks. I'd be fairly well off, with a large detached house, 'His' and 'Hers' Beemers in the double garage, swimming pool next to the tennis court etc. - the sort of lifestyle that in aviation is the exclusive preserve of the two-winged master race - but life would have been one big yawn....

Its up to the lad himself. Really. We parents can, like our own parents, only give advice and try to help. But once that urge to leave school sets in, we can only take the back seat and hope for the best.

Good Luck.

Very many thanks to all of you for taking the time and trouble to reply.

There is much encouragement to take from all of your replies and also enough of the ‘downside’ to be able to give my son a clear idea of how much effort is required and the potential rewards on offer.

Genghis – that certainly wasn’t a lecture! Your well-reasoned view actually makes me feel much more comfortable about my son’s future should he decide to follow that route :ok:

Very much appreciated everybody.

Depends what your boy wants from life really.
After all , money isn't everything.
I work for BA and although things have slipped badly in the last 5 or so years I still enjoy my job and take home a decent wage. So long as you turn off the B.S meter when you roll into work and ignore all the latest doom and gloom rumours it can be a terrific job.
We've got a few newly qualified licenced guys and on the whole they are great.
I wouldn't put anyone off it as a career - there are far worse jobs out there!!

Edit - just to add in my opinion the biggest downside of the job and virtually any aviation related job is the unsociable hours , night shifts especially. Does wonders for the social life...

NO NO NO NO NO it is all f@8*ed. Your son is 40 years too late to have a long,rewarding and interesting career in aircraft engineering.still in time to be treated like sh1@ underpaid,messed around ,frustrated,dumped and retrained though!

Hi BFU,
I've been in the industry for 26 yrs now, and I wouldn't want to go back and change anything in my professional career.

Sure it is a declining profession and to that end, if your son is that interested in aviation, he should be given all incouragement.

My Father did just that, pushed me to get my licenses, and it's been a varied and not a 9 to 5 job.

Northbrook college is one that seems to have a better rep than most.
We have had quite a few of work experience chaps from Northbrook, including Flying Mechanic [Top bloke by the way].

I've had access to sorts of things that others would not normally be able to do or see.

Sure I could have earned more in other areas, but that's not the sole reason for working where I am, I truelly enjoy my chosen career, as do many of us out there.

Final thought,

If he wants stacks on loot, go work in computer, if he wants good job satisfaction and variety, then look our way.


Jetset41

Hey Jetset41!Always a pleasure to work with you aswell.
That was the best paid work experience I ever had in my life!
Hows life with you.....hope your all well over there and send my best to all the team. I am still playing in the sandpit.:O

You get out of this industry what you put in, like any job. If my flying career went belly up tomorrow I would be phoning Jetset41 for\ a job!

Flying Mechanic
 

Hi there mate,
all is well here, all the guys still here as we know it's a good place to work.
Another mate has just gone to Abu Dhabi on frieghters and is loving it.
Might get out that way one day.

Thanks for the kind remarks towards little old me.

Catch you on the flip side one day.

Regards,

Jetset41

My advice would be to try get your son into helicopters if globe trotting and working with interesting organisations appeals.
Down here in Australia helicopter engineers follow their charges into the field and can end up anywhere from the Simpson desert mineral exploration camps to the Antartic , Asia and PNG whilst still being based in a capital city.Money much better than general aviation but still not as good as airlines but work more varied and experienced engineers in short supply.
I have been in the industy 17 years now with the first 7 working for a helicopter operator and the next ten for a major general aviation maint organisation working on light aircraft up to small exec jets and the chopper time was by far the most interesting and ended up seeing a fair chunk of Oz in the process .
I am interested to see that there is an over supply of engineers in the UK as there is a great demand down here with local companies actively recruiting overseas.Whilst the pay in GA is a joke cost of living and life stlye down here is good.
Brendon

hi
 

Hi people, i want a degree before i venture into the ATPL stage, i was wondering if a commercial airline would prefer a degree in aeronauticle engeneering/science, or chemistry?

Danny,

If you awant advice on studying aero engineering send me a PM.

Ports

There are courses now which offer aeronautical engineering or (rather more lightweight) aeronautical science combined with a PPL.

In principle this should give you a good degree, some valid and transferrable flying experience, and the ability to know which way you want to take your career and how.

Look at...

Brunel
Liverpool
Salford
Sheffield

Of-course none of this is easy or cheap, BUT it may well be the best way to cover your bets at the moment - and almost certainly whichever way you go it'll make you a better pilot or engineer because of the dual training.

A caution however, if you are planning on an airline career as a serious possibility - invest in a JAA Class 1 medical sooner rather than later; even if you let it lapse, at-least you'll know you've passed it. (Incidentally, the four I've linked are serious grown-up degree courses, there are one or two out there which aren't).

G

lol
 

Thanks people, btw Ghengis - salford uni is right next to my college, and it doesnt have a good reputation allround.

What do you think about one having a degree in chemistry or pharmacy, with intentions on an airline career?

I think that you need to ask somebody else - this is an engineers forum, and speaking for myself I'm an aeronautical engineer who occasionally test flies light aeroplanes. Airlines are things that keep many colleagues in gainful employment, but for me are generally just public transport. That said, the question is what you want a backup for - if you want to work in the aircraft industry, go for aero-eng, if there's nothing in aviation that interests you apart from flying a 300 seat heavy then (a) in my opinion you're shortsighted, and (b) do something totally vocational - become a personal trainer, accountant, chef - something like that as your backup.

The Salford degree is accredited by the RAeS, but there may well be many other good reasons not to go there (still living with your parents possibly high on the list as well!).

For my money, Liverpool or Brunel would be the plum choices for the combined degree programme in this country, Embry-Riddle if you can afford to study in the USA.

G

lol
 

Thank genghis, i really appreciate your time. I looked on the embry rid website and couldntmake top nor tail about how much it costs per year for internationals or what their requirements are for intl. students? anybody help me out?

Yes ghengis, as far away from home as possible :D, or just the best place in the world.

Btw would you care to elabirate on a comment on your rpevious post?

***if there's nothing in aviation that interests you apart from flying a 300 seat heavy then (a) in my opinion you're shortsighted***

i know its opinion, but would like to ask why?

thanks :D

I visited ERAU (Embry Riddle Aeronautical University) early this year, where I was told that total course fees in the order of US$110,000 are typical. It's not a state-funded university so you'll end up paying exactly the same as a local student, it's just that you'll have to look elsewhere for any financial aid.

As for the shortsighted thing, basically I've worked in the aerospace industry since I left school at 18 (with a couple of gaps to do degrees - in aeronautics) at various times have been involved in military and civil flight testing, military and civil ground testing, aircraft design, certification, training, education, ferrying, air transport, maintenance, management, spacecraft design, writing about most of the above and a few other things. Every one of those jobs was fascinating and rewarding - so I don't believe that flying up the front of a big-jet is by any means the only rewarding job in this industry.

This is not to say that there's anything wrong with airline flying, it's just that there are very few jobs in this industry that I wouldn't rather be doing than, say, being an accountant or pharmacist.

Aviation and aerospace are fun in all flavours (although admittedly some jobs in it pay better than others, and all have their frustrations).

G

Yeah i get what you mean. Although for me, the flying part is interesting, although i like tinkering with my motorbike lol.

I dont know, people always say have something to fall back on, incase of loss of medical etc. being a plumber, electrician...... some people may want a career to fall back on such as a chemist if the airline career doesnt fly.

I really do like flying, and it is my number 1 priority, but i would rather have a degree in something different, such as chemistry, now do you think that it would be frouned upon, i may be asked 'why do a degree in chemistry if you want to be a pilot'? I mean i like it better than physics, and will do better in it?

thanks again :D

As an ex-aircraft engineer and current airline pilot and I can confidently say that your choice of degree is immaterial if you then plan a career in commercial flying. An airline is only interested in whether you can pass the type-rating and line training in minimum time and represent the airline in a professional manner. A degree in aeronautical engineering will be quite hard in itself and, unless your heart is in it, soul destroying. Choose a degree course you are interested in and can stick with for 3 or 4 years. One thing won't impress an airline is a tendency to give up when the going gets tough.

nice
 

Good advice ham ;)

Ham P.....Were you an LAE mate? I'd like to know how airlines view LAEs who may be looking at becoming pilots in the future? Is it good, due to knowledge of the aircraft/systems, or is it bad....know too much? :E

Thanks

Wasn't an LAE but it doesn't really matter what you did before flying because it's all about how quickly and cheaply they can get you flying passengers. Regional airlines will be especially interested in how quickly they can promote you to the left-hand seat so hours are king.

As an aside, I've been involved in maintenance, flight trials, development work and airworthiness in the past before starting to fly commercially.

Nothing wrong with a Chemistry degree, sensible move, but the obvious point you'll need to investigate is what sort of money will you earn as a chemistry graduate. I know there is a need to strike a balance between money and job interest, but realistically you will need to clear student debt and raise finance for flight training, so your degree choice will need to be based on expected income after graduation. Now, I believe there is a shortage of people studying chemistry which does suggest salaries for Chemistry graduates have the potential to be good. However alot of "lab research" jobs I have seen advertised tend to have quite low salaries.

As for Aero Engineering, the current shortage in my own technical field means the current contract rates are good, but I found prior to my contracting days working as a permanent staff engineer the pay was quite average.

Ironically it was after finishing pilot training I became a contractor and consequently doubled my income (along with four fold increase in debt), however in the Aero industry I have found that contracting is the only way of getting decent pay, downside is the lack of job security.

However the recent appearance of low cost aerospace design / stress offices in India is posing a possible threat to the long term future of the design and analysis industry in this country. The engineering side can be as boom and bust as the flying side, so a second career outside the aviation industry has some advatages.

You might want to consider Chemical Engineering too if you have an interest in chemistry but are looking for something a bit more practical.
I have seen published tables in newspapers and magazines which say that Chemical Engineering has the highest average wages out of all the engineering disciplines but i have no idea what the employment prospects are like in that field for new graduates.
Alot of accountancy and finance companies have been actively recruiting science and engineering graduates recently too for their numeracy skills.
Based on my own experiences i would echo Ham-Phisted's earlier remarks. Find a course you will enjoy because any of the science based degree courses can be a tough slog and if you want to do well you will have to put in alot of hours. Concentrate on finding a course you will enjoy and excel at rather than worrying about the scope for employment.

Its all very well to have a career to fall back on but a degree won't necessarily get you a career several years down the line should you need to fall back on it. After graduating you're expected to accumulate experience. Think about it like this: who might employ an unemployed former pilot who just happens to have a degree in chemistry?

Our former Director of Personnel had a degree in chemistry but went into public administration and got into the airline business by accident. One of the general management trainees in our graduate trainee scheme started at uni doing media studies, then switched to hotel management. She didn't get selected for what she studied but how she performed. In my own case, I'm a reformed Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer with a degree in accounting & finance of all things. Aeroplanes are much more fun than banks, I might add...

If you want to be a pilot, be a pilot. Check that you can pass the medical as Ghengis suggested, then throw everything body and soul into what you really want to do. If it all turns bad, you can do the degree later.

yup
 

Yes, chemical engineering is well paid, can be over 100k, althogh my chemistry tutor knows an analytical chemist earning 120k PA, and is 29(working for a major drug company). Its definatly a good career, and the main reason i was thinking about it because i like chemistry, am good at it, and its an incredibly academic degree.

"Train as a pilot first do a degree later if you need to".

Sorry but if you acquire the kind of debts most people do after pilot training, you will not be able to afford to do a degree after doing pilot training (assuming the worst case of losing medical prior to getting a flying job).

Danny, the chemical engineering is a sound plan, that should help pay for the type rating.