I'm sorry I don't hold with the views of some that there is a "food chain" as such and therefore a hierachy with pilots at the top. To me, that sort of self-serving claptrap is NOT the idea that most people hold with. By my own admission I am a spannertwirler (of 12 years) in another life (think motor vehicles), and got what I could out of that industry. It took me to many different places in Australia (my home country) and gave me more than just a basic understanding of the machinery that I am now fortunate to be flying (C185-both on wheels and floats, Maule MX-7 and M5-235 etc etc).

O.K., I am not the typical airline pilot, nor do I possess the ability to diagnose any technical component of an air transport cat a/c, but I do know that one thing is for sure, and that is that without each-other (pilots and lames etc) we both do not have a future!

Why it is that people need to big note themselves in this day and age is well beyond me. About 6-8 weeks ago I was helping with a 100 hrly on a C185 amphib at BK (had the a/c chained/jacked-up and wheels off replacing wheel brgs, and about to do retract tests), when into the hanger walked a pilot (20yo tops, and with more gold braid than entire airforce) who proceeded to dress me down for leaving this heap of s... in his way and didn't we know that his a/c was in here and he just HAD to get it out NOW! I stood up to my full height (6'4") and asked him if he would like to help me finish, I'd be delighted to move it for him. His response I couldn't print here, but it was sure funny to see the look on his face about a week later when he came down to Palm Bch looking for a job, as his his boss had turfed him out!

I wonder why? Do you remember me?

Bottom line..... We both need to be as good as we can AT OUR OWN JOBS, and respect the other for his professionalism. Query and question, by all means, but berate and belittle, and take the consequences you have brought upon yourself.

Have a nice day, y'all. ;)

[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: 429 CJ ]

As far as I'm concerned Aviation is like an orange. We're all segments, fitting together just like an orange. If one segment is missing then it ain't an orange. Similarily, we need Pilots, Loaders Lav Dumpers and yes ourselves.
However due to the varous authorities (Initially) being full of ex Service flight ops people it's natural that they would tend to favour their own. Also thanks to a few wars the general public is accustomed to Pilots being "Square jawed, steely eyed superheroes"
For a different viewpoint have a look at this article in Business & Commercial Aviation http://www.aviationnow.com/content/p...ment/mgt01.htm
If the link is confused, it's called "Wrenching Command"
I've always made an effort to get on with Apprentices, loaders, cleaners and pilots. This has resulted in any time the aircraft was damaged, I was informed FIRST!!
But I DO get really peeved over the pay differentials with pilots!!!

Widebodyeng,
About your signature, It´s only true if your NOT trying to defend yourself against a horny purser :D :D :D :o
Otherwise I agree with you, but your final comment about the salary difference, we have only our self to blame, Eng.´s traditionally are as united as a loaf of sliced pan.
Brgds
Doc

Lame,

It might be possible to create reliable pilotless passenger aircraft. Personally, I have my doubts. You've only got to look at other areas of technology where the reality doesn't live up to the hype!

As far as the legality / responsibility for aircraft issues goes, I don't claim to be a lawyer however I can tell you that the company ops manual specifically charges me with ensuring that the aircraft is serviceable. Whether that is a realistically achievable objective is another matter, as others have mentioned above.

But to echo the sentiments raised by others, everyones got a part to play and we are only as strong as our weakest link.

As far as the pay differentials go the real problem here is a lack of a decent career path for all kinds of people in the industry, and the unfailing nature of the 'bean counters' to only ever think of 'price' rather than 'value'.

Heres to all of us. I'm off for a pint!

Heres a question for everyone:

How many pilots does it take to change a light bulb?

CPB

In answer to Capt PB's lightbulb question above, the answer is eleven. One to tell a co-pilot to phone the lightbulb engineer and ten to sit around in the dark whining about pay and conditions... ;) :)

No! Good job there's a pilot here to tell you rude mechanicals how it is! The answer is obviously one! He holds the bulb while the world revolves around him! :) :) :)

Capt Pit Bull,

I'll drink to that...........


http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/guin.gif


Best regards,

"lame"

:D :D :D

Lame,

Excellent!


Everyone:

The answer is none. Why would he bother changing a light bulb when he already thinks the sun shines out of his posterior!

CPB

How come pilots can't sink?.

Could somebody please email me a pint of one or all of the following?
Greene King IPA or Abbot
Flowers
Pigswill
Fuller's London Pride
Bearskin's Bitter
Bishop's Finger
Failing any of the above, could anyone advise the best way to get rid of this Macromedia thing that keeps flashing up on the screen as I type?


:D :)

If you are runnings Windows 98 Try start -> run -> msconfig.

See whats causing it and turn it off.

To those who are bothered by hierachies I recommend the following philosophy:

I don't care who the f*ck you think you are, I'm me and it'll be ready when I'm done, it'll be to the required standard and if you want to argue about it you'd better have all the facts in hand.

I'm off for a pint as well - its your round Pit Bull.

(Bus, is it OK if I e-mail you a pint of Ex? I'm right out of all that Southern muck right now)

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

Bus429,

Go ahead and instal the Flash 5, it will then disappear........

Best regards,

"lame"

:D

Bus 429

How are things in your part of the world? I see you are still not up to speed on the PC.

you must be busy as you have not been winding the pilots up lately. Overpaid, expenese, only 100 hours a month etc.

Have you mellowed in your old age?

Techman,

Is it because their to full of 'HOT AIR' my friend? :p

Pen it off!,

Or because of their inflated egos. :D

Hey Multi-X,

No haven't mellowed, just busy. Lots to do outside work as well.

Re computer - I find the best way to increase my knowledge is to ask those who know more than me!

Anyway, how is it going? Job safe? :)

Blacksheep,

I forgot to add your namesake to the list. If you have any Tim Taylors Best or Landlord, that'll do. Bring it round this evening! :D

LAME

Small point really but I take issue with your rather naive assertion that aircraft constructors have been spending fortunes on pilotless aircraft, implying that it is for the good of mankind or the benefit of aviation. Let's face it, the only aircraft manufacturers who have been spending any money on this research are military aircraft manufacturers. They do this for one reason only; it's unpopular to lose airmen in wars.

I would challenge you to get on a pilotless aircraft and fly to say, Bolivia, Katmandu or even Innsbruck; now or even in fifty years. It's all very well to keep quoting figures about recent crashes and how they are mostly due to pilot error. What about all those times we do save the day; or even, if I may be so bland as to suggest we do our job so well that we don't have to save the day.

The issue is, really, what single mistake could one engineer make that would cause a catastrophic failure in a major airliner. Most of the power to do so has, due to previous mistakes (as, to a certain extent, with flying admittedly) been eliminated by procedures put in place. To give one example close to my heart we could perhaps mention that on the RJ series aircraft (and probably all multiengined aircraft, I presume) the servicing of the engines has to be staggered. Was that due directly to the queen's flight incident? I admit I don't know, but in any case someone has obviously thought about it.

What I'm driving at is that it's very easy to point fingers but our job is inherently different to yours. You always have the leisure to correct any mistakes that you make. An engineers ability to fault find is matched by a pilot's ability to assess conditions and have a situational (funny, it originally came out as situanal) awareness. The difference is that if at first YOU don't succeed, YOU can try, try again. Need I say that this is not always true for us? There, I've said it!

Also, your job is subject to far less variables than ours is. Something is either broke or it's fixable; if you're not sure, you can change the part anyway to be on the safe side. We call you because we're not allowed to fix the bloody things ourselves.

Whilst we're on the subject of pilotless aircraft, I could turn the argument around on you and say that not only has the technology for designing and building aircraft automatically (or at least with far less input from engineers than before) been around for far longer than the technology to fly them remotely; but also to maintain them.

BUS 429

I've been waiting for you to come and clean my car for a whole year now. I'll leave my shoes in there too, be a love!

[ 23 October 2001: Message edited by: Secret Squirrel ]

[ 23 October 2001: Message edited by: Secret Squirrel ]

[ 23 October 2001: Message edited by: Secret Squirrel ]

Well Secret Squirrel, you are absolutely correct. It most certainly takes MUCH more effort and expertise to accept the uplinked flight plan into the FMS and engage the autopilot at 400' than it does to figure out why the A/C won't accept the uplink or why the FMS doesn't make the autopilot follow the flight plan. Before things get out of hand here, let me say that I have come across many pilots that respected what we do, but unfortunately the vast majority of these "part-timers" are egotistical narcissistic windbags. Might I remind you that you put your pants on the same way everyone else does - one leg at a time. Pilots are no more or less important to operating an airline than the engineers.