How can BEng Graduates become B1 Licensed Maintenance Engineers?
 

Hi,

I'm a current 2nd year Aerospace Engineering student at the University of Liverpool and I want to become a Licensed B1 Engineer rather than someone who sits behind a desk or someone in manufacturing/design (not that there's anything wrong with it I'm just more of a practical person).

I understand straight away that I will be told I'm doing the wrong thing but originally I signed up toe the MEng course with the intention of joining the RAF upon graduation, however after joining the reserves at university I decided it wasn't the job I wanted. So after a bit of luck I managed to get three week placement with an airline on line maintenance and base maintenance working with Bombardier Q400 and Embraer 175/195 aircraft and a further three weeks this Easter. After that placement I found out that the degree was the wrong route for that job and that I should have done an apprenticeship. So anyway I've decided to get my Part-66 application logbook to log the experience I have so far with the aim of getting more placements to gain experience. However, after consulting the Royal Aeronautical Society I am dropping off the MEng course and have been told that there are ways in for BEng graduates to the hands-on shift work that I know I want to do and enjoy.

The trouble I am having at the moment is I do not know where to go to get into the industry as all I can find is apprenticeship's and instead of helping me and advising me the airlines I have emailed so far have just told me that I will be ineligible for apprenticeships and have offered no help as to how to get into the career I want (the ones who have actually replied that is). Obviously at this stage leaving university would be a drastic, last choice. But with 17 months until graduation I am worried that the degree might hinder rather than help.

Does anyone know anything that could help, someone who can help or where to get help from, please?

Thanks

Start again!

Your BEng/MEng education is directed completely wrongly for maintenance. If it's really what you want to do, duck out, start again from scratch.

The degree will do no harm, but little good.

Sorry, that's just how it is.

P

philw492

Stay on your BEng course. In the long run it is a far easier route into aeronautical engineering than going down the licensed route. Whoever it was in the RAES who advised you about getting into shift work from a BEng course is a clown. Take my advice, find him, and punch him as hard as you possibly can. I can understand you enjoyed your work placement, but I hope you don't take offence in me saying that you were looking at it from the point of view from having no responsibility. So you were able to enjoy it. Don't get me wrong, being a Licensed Engineer is a very rewarding and satisfying job, but you can use your BEng in a number of ways. Now you have started down that route, complete it, and then make your decision. Rolls Royce, and BAE have a number of vacancies on graduate schemes which will give you a satisfying and challenging career. If I am not wrong there are also practical elements in the courses run by those companies. The RAF route would probably be the most secure, and funnily enough, quite rewarding financially for you. But to be quite honest, a commissioned RAF engineer is about as useful as a chocolate hammer when it comes to practical aircraft maintenance engineering. They tend to end up in QA, or bluffing their way in project management. Yes, as a licensed engineer you will come across very technically demanding problems, and it can be very satisfying when you finally solve a problem that has been a right pain in the backside. But would you still enjoy it when you have your arm up a toilet waste pipe to free up a blockage, or strapped onto the top of a cherry picker in a howling gale while replacing a poxy filament. No doubt other engineers will give you other advice, but only you can make the final decision. Whatever you decide, good luck for the future.

Pilotage: Today especially after seeing that the Virgin Atlantic apprenticeship reopens for admissions next month I am hugely tempted to drop out. Just need the reassurance first that at the moment I cannot get into that career path via the degree.

Kapton: I agree with what your saying but being Britain it was June on placement and we had thunderstorms for two days and it was after 4 hours standing in the rain holding jubilee clips and sockets at the foot of a set of ladders under a Q400 wing when I realised I was still enjoying placement. Even the hours spent pulling up the non-slip flooring in an E195 forward cargo bay and re-laying the new stuff didn't put me off, and at 6"2' it wasn't comfortable! I think the placement I undertook including night shifts wasn't a watered down glossy look at the job as I have got my CAA logbook and attempting to gain as much experience as possible. I know it might sound sad but it doesn't faze me with the bad points, every job has a bad side but it still interests me. I still want to assess all options so I'll take a look at the Rolls-Royce and BAE suggestions of yours, so thanks I appreciate them.

Ultimately I've been wanting clarification as at the moment I have either got no answer or useless ones that don't help. Like I said to Pilotage the VA apprenticeship opening up again has spurred me on into exploring more avenues of seeking help. I've tried emails, LinkedIn and even begun writing a blog to attempt to get noticed! Thanks for your replies! They are greatly appreciated!

Hello Phil

Kapton is correct, 17 months is not that long to finish your degree. In my calculation with all your student holidays you only have about 3 weeks of study left.

Once you have your degree it will open up many job opportunities. If you still what a licence remember it takes a minimum of five years to get, wether you study full or part time. I have know a guy with a degree who worked in the technical department. Studied for his exams part time. He did his work experience doing overtime.

Now licenced I am sure if he wished to move up the career ladder, his degree I am sure will be an asset.

Good luck mate

Hi Phil
I can only agree with all the other posts. DON'T THROW AWAY THE DEGREE!!!. It is far more useful on "The outside"


Rgds Dr I

I'm not in the aviation industry, but I've had several junior staff and more recently, students, who have completed a degree and then decided to get into a different field of work. I have to say that it's an area that's interesting, reasonably well payed and enjoyable if you're the right type of person and enjoy hard physical work, but it doesn't require a degree. Without an exception that I can think of, they have enjoyed their work, and their degree, whether in the humanities or sciences, has not hindered them.

I also agree that throwing away the degreee would be a mistake. It is "far more useful on the outside" unless of course what you really want is to be a licensed engineer!!!!!!!!
Sounds facetious, but not really, that degree could give you an edge later in your career or an alternative if things go wrong. You have invested the time so dont throw it away.

My employer has recently taken on apprentices in their mid twenties so it is not impossible to get a position slightly later in life. The attitude taken by some employers is something of a joke. The drop out rate for apprentices is high whereas someone like you who has a proven abilty to stay the course would be a much better bet.

Thanks everyone for the replies.

I agree ditching the degree is my last option. I am also looking at the possiblity of transferring universities and courses to the BEng Aircraft Maintenance degree at the University of Glamorgan depending on the compatability of my current course to theirs.

The worry I have is that, although some of you have said that there are managers out there that take on older apprentices, I cannot find anyone who can offer anything at any of the airlines yet. I definitely want to go down the licensed route as that job is my first choice for career; even after 4 hours on a stormy day last June getting drenched at the foot of a platform under a Q400 wing holding jubilee clips, bolts and sockets for the engineer whilst trying to identify the issue with the de-icing system on the leading edge of the starboard wing I was thoroughly enjoying myself. May sound sad to some people but I can't think of a job I would enjoy more, the atmosphere was great, the jobs I helped on were great (even the hours where all 6ft 2 of me was crammed in the forward cargo hold of an Embraer 195 removing the non-slip floor and re-laying it was enjoyable!).

So at the moment I am panicking that I will end up at my current workplace at an outdoors shop selling boots and rucksacks for years trying to find one airline that would take me on for my EASA Part-66 B1 Licence.

Once again thanks for the replies, I've got more replies on here than all the replies I have received from airlines in total and I've emailed a lot of airlines!


P.S. I apologise for the spelling mistakes in the original post, Apple autocorrect was living up to it's fantastic reputation!

Like many have said, the course you are on won't get you into being an LAE really. That said, I would 100% recommend you stay on and finish it. As an LAE further down the line in your career, having extra qualifications in Aerospace Engineering may set you ahead for that 'next step' into something like Tech Services, Maintrol, or management, should you decide that you fancy a change at a date.

My other peice of advice is to start sitting your Module exams NOW :). Decide if you want to be B1 (Airframe/Engine) or B2 (Avionics), and get plugging away at some exams. The Maths/Physics/Electrics modules shouldn't worry you too much as your Uni (and/or ALevels) course will have tought you much of what you need.

In the 17months you have left, you could get quite a few modules under your belt, and if you can spare the time, keep getting as many placements as you can in your holidays!

Not feasible during termtime, but the 10 week summer break at most UK universities lends itself to this sort of thing. Certainly I agree that a graduate engineer who is also a licenced engineer potentially has a valuable skillset, IF they actually have worked in both professional environments.

P

Whole system has become a farce , where are the proffessional skilled technicians to do the work ? How can someone be a B1 or B2 LAE without being a skilled technician first ? Should be a proper skill test as required by FAA to become a 'MECHANIC' . And to become an LAE they should go back to a proper oral.

As previously posted I would stick with the degree if you can, Im sure it will eventually pay off. Have you thought about GA or is it purely the big stuff you are wanting to work on?

If the Airlines have already said that you would be over qualified for an apprenticeship then does this not already answer your question?

As far as the exams go I would maybe check first on the validity of them without having the experience requirements?! If its all good then crack on, the exams are only available 1 day a month I believe so I am sure you would be able to work something out and you would maybe stand bigger chance of passing whilst you are still learning with the degree.

Just remember 17 months is nothing compared with the other 45-50 years you have ahead of you in your working life!

Banditb6: I understand where you're coming from and partly yes it answers my question, but I have been told by the RAES that there have been plenty of people in the same situation manage to get into the industry. What I want to know is how they have done it as the RAES have said is to carry on with the BEng and just try and contact as many people in airlines as possible.

My aim is to carry on and try and get the exams if possible, I have also been looking at moving abroad due to job availability and Australia is my first choice. The degree gets me in for at least 18 months without any hassle and minimal paperwork. Then with the exams I will have sat over here with the CAA will be compatible with the CASA system and will be recognised by them so I could continue my study for the licence over there. The problem I have is that no one can give me a definitive answer on what happens after university for a graduate wanting to be a licenced engineer. I am in way too far now to come out with £12,000 of debt and nothing to show for it!

The reason for me coming to PPRuNe is to see if there is anyone on here with any knowledge, advice or even someone who could help me achieve my ambition. Experience wise I have the offer of working with the same airline during my holidays for the rest of uni, however, I am always looking for more experience as I would like a broader knowledge of aircraft types to put me in a better position once I have completed the degree.

Hopefully, upon graduation I will have the degree, experience for at least 6 weeks (3 done already, 3 coming up in March) as a worst case on the Q400, E175 and E195, an Arkwright Scholarship sponsored by the Royal Air Force, a B.S.A Gold Crest Award in Engineering from working with Aero Engine Controls, six days experience working on the Boeing C-17A with the RAF and a weeks worth of experience at a UK Airport. With all this I am hoping that it is evident that from school I have been trying to broaden my knowledge and experience with the aim to show that I have thoroughly thought through which route I want to take. What I don't understand is why an apprenticeship system would not take a graduate at 21 years old who is highly motivated and has a broader knowledge of the engineering world (I like to think I have as much as I possibly could) so has chosen the exact path they want to take meaning that I am as sure as is possible that the licensed engineer route is the one I want to take.

I don't know if anyone else found this at sixth form, but careers advice seemed more to be advice on which degree to do rather than where to go. I have no idea if this was down to just my school but sixth forms for me and my friends seemed to be aiming more towards getting as many people into a university as possible rather than giving them the advice they actually wanted. Admitedly at first my aim was the RAF but I always stated a hands-on practical job was what I wanted, and as an engineer officer that is far from what the job entails. It seemed to me that the careers advisor heard aircaft and immediately thought aerospace engineering degree.

Have you thought about getting a fitters Job with an Airline or other to get your experience requirements after you have graduated?

After spending 2 years trying to get onto an Airline Apprenticeship scheme I decided that they are only interested in young people that I assume they get government funding for and they can mould into the Engineers they require.

Have you looked at GA as a way in?

Finish the degree. Take these tips and don't list it on CVs for jobs that do not require it.

Banditb6: I'm really sorry if I sound a bit stupid but what do you mean by GA? Do you mean general aviation? Sorry still catching up with the acronyms. I had been advised about the fitters job route however after speaking to various airline careers departments they don't tend to employ many with the exception I think being monarch.

Easy Street: Thank you for the link it is a useful article and I might have to use some of those tips. A family member had the same situation with his career path and said to just not include the degree on applications, the only worry I have about that is what do I say I've done for the three year gap in my CV when I have been at university. Then again I presume if I'm at the point where they are asking me that question I'll have got passed the CV stage. Thank you for your help.

Yes sorry I mean General Aviation, small single and twin piston aircraft. Monarch have just built a new Maintenance facility at Birmingham I belive although im sure someone more in the know will soon be along!?

No in all honesty I haven't actually thought about GA to be honest I wouldn't know where to look off the top of my head as I have been focussing on airlines.

Yes they have just started building the largest hangar in the UK there due for completion in the summer and operation around septemeber. This evening I've actually had a reply from monarch and they have said to me that they do not discriminate who does the apprenticeship! They have also announced today when their apprenticeship application went live that they will be doing some at Birmingham. So that definitely looks plausible so far however I am worried that it only mentioned up to A licence class so I will have to do some more digging for information, but the email this evening has certainly lifted my spirits that there now seems to be at least one avenue to follow up!

Very simple really - go to your nearest GA airfield, find a hangar doing maintenance, and ask politely.

P

I was in your exact same position about 6 years ago, have a degree in aeronautical engineering but three quarters the way through I was pretty much ready to throw in the towel as having done work placement for 8 months in the planning department of a large base maintenance company I decided sitting at a desk all day just wasn't for me.

Logically speaking I'd done 3 years in college and only had one left so though it was better to take one more year off my future than have wasted the previous three, plus it definitely looks better that you have the commitment to finish what you started as when going for an apprenticeship the biggest question a company will have is will you stick with it despite the opportunity of getting "better" jobs with your qualification.

I'm currently an apprentice now at 25 and didn't have any difficulty getting it although from what your saying it does seem to be a bit harder in the UK although a lot of companies seem to be taking apprentices that are older these days. It'll never do any harm to have the degree although it won't help that much at the moment.

I can't see any straight forward way of getting where you want to be without doing an apprenticeship, but thats not to say that it can't be done.

I note that the Monarch appentice scheme mentioned by Spannersatcx does not appear to have an age limit.

Most airlines dont specify age. However, you're more likely to get it if you're 19 or under.

Its to do with government funding.

If you do some digging you'll see what im getting at. And i dont agree with it one bit.

The Virign Atlantic Apprenticeship takes you through the B modules so Im not sure if the Monarch one is the same, It's worth applying for it all the same and trying.

Best thing to do regarding GA is trying to get around the local airfields during the week if possible (as many GA Maintenenace Hangars are not open at the weekend) and start asking some questions get your name out and explain your situation, where abouts in West Mids are you?

Monarch do Cat A1 as far as I am aware.

Thomson put their apprentices through the Cat A1 modules as well.

I'm sorry for the slow reply, been a bit hectic at uni in the last few days.

The90sAME: That's what I've found with Flybe, applicants from 16 to 18 get the whole training course for free due to government funding. As for the Monarch apprenticeship, it is only to Cat A1 they don't do the B1 training it is all down to the individual to get the B1 licence. Which means I might as well plough ahead with the B1 exams during the summer holidays.

banditb6: I'm in Birmingham so I could look at Coventry Airport as they have a few flying clubs there as well as a few airfields around Stratford-Upon-Avon. I've already been told by Virgin Atlantic that they won't even look at me for their apprenticeship as a graduate, as I am 'overqualified'. I can't stand hearing that phrase anymore, it's really starting to annoy me that I am really seriously determined to follow this career path yet people are telling me I can't do an apprenticeship just because I've spent three years learning the theory behind aerospace engineering!

Hi Phil,
I am also an Aero BEng Student at Liverpool. Before that, I did an apprenticeship and am now an aero engine mechanic with a little bit of work experience and, in total, three years in industry. Included in my apprenticeship was the training course for A1 and A2 licences. Unfortunately, I am still missing one module, because my employer/training organisation didn't do any airframe work and therefore I couldn't satisfy the requirements for practical experience.

I came to my decision to study aerospace engineering when I realised that all my apprenticeship could get me (at that particular company, but I wasn't really interested in MRO, so not too many options after all...) was maybe five interesting years of work, where I could have gained experience working in a specific engine programme (more than one if I was really lucky). After those years, it would just become increasingly dull, up to the point where it's just "same s#!t, different day"... However, that doesn't have to be the case, if your (future) employer appreciates that you're keen on going above and beyond the call of duty, you're eager to learn something every single day and eventually master your craft, rather than just being a mere executor of assigned tasks. Many companies tend to dumb down work, so that they can hire less skilled people and pay them less.

Even though I finished my apprenticeship top of my class, even came out on top of all 2012 apprentices in that particular sector, I was quite gutted when I realised that my employer couldn't be bothered to get me a job where I could demonstrate my ability, even though I was well on the go, asking everyone for interesting job opportunities. I received an offer to join a mobile repair team almost six(!) months after I had enquired... Needless to say I had to turn it down, as I was going to move to L'pool just a few weeks later.

My first year (so far) has been quite interesting and extremely frustrating at the same time and I have been thinking about dropping out more than just once. But I think all in all it is a good degree, and with just 17 months to go I'd definitely stay! There's more to aerospace and aviation than just MRO! If you like, we could meet up and chat about our experience, just PM me if you like.

Good luck!

I have recently decided to start up a blog, the reasons being to primarily try and gain any sort of notice from people in the industry (bit of a long shot) but also to try and inform people searching the net for the same information as me about what I have found out. From the careers advice I received at school I know that people can easily be led in the wrong direction and no one apart from on here has told me how it actually is, so I want to try and help people out. It's going ok so far I've got a few hits from around the world but I want to drum up some more hits, and I'd greatly appreciate any suggestions from anyone one here who has done a blog or even if any of you hear about anyone needing help with the same issues as me point them in that direction.

I've sent out more emails including to eurojets the private jet company at Birmingham airport to see if they can help with any experience etc.

Thanks everyone for the advice and help so far.

Here's the blog page:

https://philwilliamsblog.wordpress.com

Why are you dismissing the Monarch A1 apprentice course? The problem you have is gaining experience. Just doing the B1/B2 modules without experience is a waste of time. You need to get a foot in the door, if that means becoming an A1 mechanic/technician for a while then grab it with both hands, get some experience and slog on with the B licence modules. That is how most of us did it. It took me 6 years from finishing my apprenticeship to get my A & C licence. It's a hard slog but worth it. Good luck.


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Agree with TURIN, the hardest part is getting the experience, even for ex RAF like myself, who found about half the modules were more revision than actually new. Even with the maximum dispensation of experience down to a year, with the various employers I had, it took me almost 3 years to get a basic AML without lying on tasks to make sure it got through the CAA (getting engine experience was the hardest). It has taken me another 18 months to find an employer willing to put me on a type course and drive me though the rating OJT (They have to for my post, other employers that don't have to, won't and I have seen that in other places). Most apprenticeships only do up to cat A, some don't even do that (one place I know only did C&Gs, equalivent to Cat A , but not actually an EASA ticket!) I know of only one apprenticeship course at Lasham, where the guys did the B modules, that was some time ago and I don't know if it continued.

I am not dismissing monarch completely but they take 4 years and in their own words in the reply I got back from them, they do not guarantee achieving an A licence after the four years. Virgin atlantic do an apprenticeship for three years where they get a B licence from it. I am currently building up my experience during my holidays at Birmingham Airport.

I am only saying that at the moment monarch is not my first choice and won't be my first choice if I can find somewhere that gets me a B licence. Working towards my modules is the advice I have taken from the majority on here and also the line maintenance manager who has helped me get my experience so far and during further university holidays. I am merely trying to find a route into the profession and ideally the quickest and 4 years at monarch after three years at uni and not guaranteeing getting an A licence doesn't appeal to me.

Some people won't like my approach and I am not saying it is the best but after going to uni at the moment I feel like I'm three years behind where I could be in my career. The more of the application process and experience I can do/get whilst at university the better in my opinion and if I can find a fitters job straight after uni to complete my experience then that's great.

The frustration I have stems from airlines telling me I can't do their apprenticeship after uni as I am 'overqualified'.

Bristow currently advertising for apprentices on their job site.

I doubt you will get a better opportunity than that.

Phil, if you think you can become a licensed aircraft engineer in 3 years I should start looking at a new career if I were you.
A four year apprenticeship plus several years gaining experience is NORMAL.
You may well be a clever bugger, pass the written modules with ease but without learning from your peers the stuff they don't teach in college you have got no chance.



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Turin: I'm not saying I definitely can become an LAE in 3 years all I have said is that if Virgin Atlantic do an apprenticeship of 3 years and achieve a B licence from it and Monarch do an apprenticeship of 4 years and you MIGHT achieve an A licence which would you pick?

I fully understand there is a lot to learn, I am in no way suggesting that my degree puts me ahead at all as I know for fact from what I have learnt on my degree so far is useless for an LAE job. I'm not here trying to make it sound like I can easily get into a job because I can't all I want to do is rectify the mistake of going to uni instead of an apprenticeship.

3 years is the figure I have got as I have looked at paid courses and apprenticeships and seen that usually 3 year ones get you a B licence with Virgin Atlantic and Emirates and with two universities with an aircraft maintenance degree for example.

I came on here to look for help, advice and guidance. I will not be told to look for a new career path because you think you can't get a licence in three years. Becoming an LAE that's different as after the licence I know you need type-ratings and you're always learning on the job.

So basically to summarise no I will not look for a new career and yes you can get a licence in three years and I never said that would cover everything to becoming an LAE.

Phil.
Go get your "paid for" B license. Spend 3 years doing it, then see how many job offers you get.
A four year apprenticeship with Monarch will get you more chance of employment, whether you come out of it with C & Gs, A1 or a B2.
Good luck, I think you may need it.



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How is it just a "paid for" B licence? If airlines offer a 3 years B licence then obviously they appreciate it. Emirates themselves have said that after three years their students who complete the course get jobs with airlines including themselves, BA, Qantas, various air forces and more.

I don't understand why you've decided to make the three year B licence courses seem not as worthy as a 4 year A licence course. Okay you get more experience before getting a B licence but if airlines offer it and airlines take people on from it, what is wrong with me choosing it?

All I am doing is assessing my options and many people on here have told me to get my B licence. You might have a different opinion, it doesn't mean that because you don't think it's the right route that I am suddenly needing luck and making it sound like I am stupid to choose it.

And

ALL the LAEs I know worked UNDER LAEs for many, many years while learning the trade before even attempting the Licence.

People these days seem to think they can get a B1/B2 one way or another, and THEN get the experience required to use it.
It's all arse about face.

A three year B1 apprenticeship may well get you a licence at the end but at what cost? In three years, how much hands on experience do you think you are going to get if you are doing a full B1 classroom course?

You have done a few weeks work experience. You have barely scratched the surface.

If you want to become an LAE then you need to learn the job FIRST.

Good luck.

Finish you BEng and find a job that will finance you through flight training. Honestly, its a much better career route ;)

But Turin the problem is the only way to learn the job is to do the courses or an apprenticeship. I have had a massive amount of luck already to gain a place getting experience during my holidays. But every other person and airline I have emailed has told me they can't help. How do you expect anyone to learn the job if they get turned away?

I know I haven't scratched the surface I never claimed to have known everything about it but I have gone and got as much experience as I possibly could so far because of the limited amount of experience opportunities available.

The fact of the matter is airlines offer the courses/apprenticeships to gain B licensed engineers. With this qualification and type-ratings you can legally work on aircraft. Airlines want B licensed engineers, there is no other route in and there is nothing wrong with the 3 year B licensed route otherwise what's the point in airlines offering it and spending all the money on training people?

Black sheep: I'm sure you're popular suggesting that on the engineers and technician's page ;)