Is there REALLY a shortage of LAE's?
 

I keep hearing the rumour that there is a shortage of LAE's, and that it is a massivley ageing industry, but do you think there is any truth to it, or just the old jungle drums?

Do you think Engineers will ever be held in the same esteem that pilots are, and paid as such?

Discuss!

Yes there is a shortage of LA E's who are experienced, well qualified and who can justify being paid an LAE wage.
Yes it is an aging industry, many retiring and not being replaced with like for like, experience etc wise.
Should an LAE be paid the same as a Pilot ? no - totally different skill set and whilst certifying for safe and correct maintenance, an LAE will never have the responsibility level of a Pilot.
Should an LAE have the same respect as a Pilot ? That is something both have to earn - neither receives it as a right and many in both trades/professions are simply not worthy.
Not to worry however - the "A" License will address any concerns the maintenance side of the industry may have as will the 200 hour cadet on the Piloting side.........:ugh:

Lack of self worth...
 

Pilot's have many levels of experience. I for one believe than an LAE/AMT with through systems knowledge on the same often (usually) more airframes than the equivalent pilot does holds a rite to the same pay. We often do start out at the same pay level but with 10 years experience fall short.

Our skill set becomes defined, hardened as does a pilots. We learn more and more quickly how to define and resolve a problem just as pilots do. We are challenged with new technology, just as pilots do. We are responsible for the aircraft we maintain just as pilots are that fly them responsibly.

We follow with pride the same manuals that are issued by an aircraft MFGR.

We call an aircraft airworthy, based on our skill set and experience, a pilot operates that aircraft safely based on our JUDGMENT!

Hi
Regarding the shortage of engineers problem: Yes I believe there is a shortage. We in the FR brigade are seeing a shortage in the winter months and once the summer schedule kicks back in there is expected to be a severe lack of engineers experienced or not.

Regarding the experience shortage: I absolutely agree. The experience pool is being severely diluted due to commercial constraints. Since the companies cannot get the better more experienced guys they are now taking anything that has the required pieces of paper just to make sure all the relevant boxes are ticked.

Regarding the responsibility of pilots and engineers: I absolutely understand that a pilot (and more specifically a captain) has a large responsibility but I would not play down the responsibilities of a certifying engineer especially when I consider that on any given night I personally will sign off up to 5 aircraft and in doing so I state that any maintenance I have carried out that night, be it routine inspection or heavy complex unscheduled work is carried out in a safe and satisfactory manner which will permit those 5 aircraft to fly about 5000 people safely through the sky for a day. That to me is no small responsibility and I would like to see engineers as a body recognized for it.

There sure as hell aint a shortage in the UK, the place is awash with them which is why the hourly rate today is little more than it was in the mid nineties, i work for a recruiting company and we have never had so many engineers looking for work on our books.

Yes but how many of those engineers are actually out of work at the moment? There are 7 licenced guys at my place of employment, and 5 of those are currently actively looking elsewhere, but it's not like they are unemployed right now. It's just shifting experience - not fresh legs.

Anyone who thinks certifying engineers have less responsibility than pilots or managers and directors for that matter should check out the aftermath of the Tun-inter and Helios crashes.

There certainly is a shortage of capable, experienced b licenced engineers. And where I am the majority are up for retirement in 5 to 7 years.

I say competent because all too many of the people I see are not very competent. Sadly that goes in spades for B2 holders, (yes I'm a B2). With the shortage some very poor performers get a job and frankly the EASA licencing system does not help. Many of the new EASA B2 holders slavishly follow the FIM and seem incapable of independant thought. Couple this with inexperience and you do not get the level of safety I'd like to see. I don't know it all by a long chalk but I do find some of the people about now a worry.

OK politically incorrect and ' it was better in my day etc' but that's my considered view based on my everyday experiences. Anyway I should be out of it soon hopefully leaving a space for a new boy to fill.

For those of you considering it as a career, it takes effort but it's worth it. There is a drive to replace as many B licence holders with A licence holders so there will probably be fewer B positions in future. It's a worthwhile job deserving of more respect than it gets. I've had over 40 years of interest and some great fun interspersed with the odd moment of horror but I'll be glad to go. Too many idiot managers with no operational experience and who make piss poor decisions about nowadays.

Ah got that off my chest feel much better now:E

There may be a glut of Engineers although I would be surprised if that is the case when you ask another question. That question is ' How many top notch, well qualified, experienced Engineers (Techs and Mechs) are on the market?'.
I have had just over 3500 CV from all over the world (literally)in the past year for Tech/Mech positions and have been fortunate to recruit some very good, quality people, but I have noticed that there are a large number who lack sound, solid experience in depth and/or suitable qualifications. Don't let the perceived numbers of Engineers that are on the market cloud the quality and experience issue.

Temps.

One thing that sticks out to me, is that no one wants to help with your training.... I have over 12 years of large aircraft experience in the RAF a good apprenticeship & all of my B1 & B2 modules done, and recent heavy maint experience on Boeing & Airbus aircraft. I am just waiting on time now before I can apply for my licences.

But no one is interested in that, they want type rated experienced engineers NOW, not soon, but NOW! I can understand that they have a business need, but surley I must be a good bet for a company that needs to replace engineers in the future, as they get the chance to train me to their systems & build knowledge before being let loose certifying aircraft?

A colleague I recently worked with paid for his own type rating on a new licence, then a few days later was employed by an Irish airline :hmm: immediatley, with no training or anything other than the basic quality checks, as he had all the right bits of paper, and the bare minimum required type experience to be granted the licence!! He even admitted he was way out of his depth, but had to muddle through as the sole B1 engineer on shift!

What I see is a reflection of the pilot situation, where no one will take responsibiliy for training, then moan that standards are dropping :ugh:...

I just hope all the efforts so far will pay off in the long term, and engineers will start getting a bit more respect for the job they do!

Best thing that ever happened from our perspective is the vast number of licensed engineers being churned out by the part 147 training schools, its more like the American A and P system now , Licences are by all accounts so much easier to obtain than they were twenty years ago.

As has been said many times on this forum, experience is everything in this game and to answer the original question, yes there is a shortage of well qualified and experienced LAE's .

For those starting out in the industry or making the transition from the military, expect a long but hopefully rewarding slog to attain the relevant type experience and company approvals. At the end of the day a license is nothing more than a piece of paper. Any reputable company is going to be looking very carefully at you as a person in conjunction with qualifications before allowing you to certify. The example quoted in a previous post of a newly licensed person being given an “instant” approval is a worrying example of how things can be “dumbed down” Any inexperienced LAE who is prepared to be put in this position needs to carefully remember his/her responsibilities (companies don’t give approval pay just to help you buy a flash car etc!!)

As for pay parity with pilots…..most B1/B2’s with a decent number of approvals should be earning at least what an experienced F/O earns in most UK airlines these days. Is it enough?....probably not (but unlike pilots, engineers have never managed to effectively act as group to enhance pay and conditions) This issue has never been helped by the fact that most bean-counter managers have a chip on their shoulder that most LAE’s earn more than them anyway!

boeing_eng , i agree with you and thats why , for the time being , i prefer to stay unemployed ...

GWH

Brother this is the largest trend I fight every day, it is almost a directive from MGT to follow the FIM despite your better knowledge. Our group is slowly folding to a "career over craft" mindset on this issue. A factory FIM assumes (the selling point to airlines) that an aircraft system will fail as they expect and are completely ignorant (especially on an older aircraft) that it can fail out of their box. Airlines sold this BS will feel the effects of the cost's of years of accumulated out of service aircraft that cost big bucks! SO frustrating but it is a hard battle for us. (see next comment)

Boeing-Eng...

The bottom line is a cultural one. Aircraft maintenance is viewed as a LIABILITY, most proactive measures taken to reduce this are daft expecting after a MGT/bean counter review of some function is taken to improve reliability. Reliability in aircraft maintenance, on the ramp exists as a REACTIVE measure! Training and experience keeps the revenue flights flowing.


K-C130

Our Pilots are becoming drones as they more than any of us are encouraged to follow policy and procedure with less latitude for decision based on human logic. Once again the MFGR sells airlines an aircraft where neither Pilots or the AMT/LAME should need to think for himself.

Pilots and engineers are very different professions.
They are both equally indispensable members of the aviation community.
I don't know enough about the engineers or pilots shortages, so no commenst in that area.
As for the pay parity, I beleive it will always be that pilots, in particular captains get paid substantially more than engineers.
The main reasons are, the pilot is required to undergo medical check up and at a doctors's stroke, his/her carrier is in jeopardy. Annually or bi-annually the pilot has to pass an evaluation that could jeopardize the carrier if not passed succesfully. A multitude of other checks, such as line check, Dangerous goods, First aid, MNPS,etc.... have to be passed.
By nature of the job, pilots tend to spend more time away from home, while engineers even the ones working shifts tend to be more at home.
Engineers on the other hand do not have to go through such stringent evaluations after the initial qualifications, unless aquiring a new rating.
The idea that pilots have stronger unions, I am not convinced.
All airforces around the world and airlines from certain parts of the world where unions are not allowed, have similar parities betwen pilots and engineers.
It does not mean one is better than the other, it is just like a banana and an orange are both tasty and good for your health, but they are different.

Sorry Tournesol , i do not agree with you :
1/ the pilot is required to undergo medical check up : in France , thats the same and at the employer's discretion ... French Labour Law !
2/ pilots tend to spend more time away from home : did you hear already about Contractors and Relief Engineers ...?
Pilots are paid more because of the responsability of their job , problem is that , nowadays , when they are taking alone a decision , most of the time , they are f...ing up the stuff ...
Is it not a big responsability to sign off the release of an aircraft and this alone , whatever the temperature and climate could be , and i am not talking about some other human factors ?

Priceless, MATMAX. Absolutely priceless.

No wonder you are unemployed. :ugh:

I respectfully disagree.. Really, "hello my name is Captain Jones, I get paid 300k a year because I am forced to eat healthy and get some excercise".

I undergo countless hours of recurrent training and testing (DG is one of them) on 7 types of aircraft!!!

The largest mistake US A&P made was not to jump on the ALPA bandwagon when it was offered to technicians in it's early stages.

I know I do not represent the masses but 4-5 years of my career were spent living on an aircraft, had no problem with the being away from home part, hell I loved the odd chance to stay in a fine hotel in an exotic land. The problem was when the pilots went to the hotel after an 8 hour flight I still had several 8 hour legs to go before I saw a real bed.

A pilot with experience can usually pick and choose what he wants, some love inter continental flight, it is easy for a senior guy to usually give up a few dollars and fly a few short legs a day, be home for dinner and get plenty of time off.

Back on topic, working on a 20 year career as an AMT I have been hearing that there is or will be a shortage of AMT's in the USA since I heard it first from my A&P school recruiter. Fact is I have never seen a shortage, quite the opposite, just layoff's.

Mat Max,
I feel sad that you are offended by my opinion. What God given right do you have to disrespect other ppl opinions? The use of the f*** only shows your imaturity.
If you feel pilots have it easy, why don't you or didn't you become one? You know the answer to that. Some good LMEs have gone that way and have become very succesfull. But only the brave and confident ones made it.

I feel I have threaded on a very raw nerves with some LMEs, Technicians or Aircraft Mechanics. You are who you are because you chose to be one. You should be proud of what you do because your job is important in the aviation industry. Without you the airplanes will never become airborne.

The chips you are carying on your shoulders are only slowing you down. Grow up and smell the coffee. No where in the world an engineer/mechanic is going to be compared to a captain, no matter what the circusmstances are.

I can't speak for the US but in the Uk there is shortage. There is an increasing number of EASA B licenced available, but nothing I have seen yet convinces me that the EASA licence equates with the old BCAR licence. As a consequence many who would have not 'cleared the bar' now get through. Yes there will be many capable people who will make fine engineers. However there are a lot of people who have learned to answer questions in a multi choice paper and who do not really understand systems or the principles underlying them. If I were an employer I'd want to see some proof of ability. Overall the level of competence is declining.

As to pilots and engineers. I would like to see engineers valued more not pilots less. The two roles are different but each in their own way requires hard work to maintain the required level of professionalism. The pilots are valued for many reasons not least of which of which is their strong unions. BALPA, I believe, sends in a queens Counsel to negotiate and although this costs it gets results. Also pilots do not usually criticise one another in public engineers queue up to do it.

One thing has always puzzled me though. Pilots are only interested in pilots and nobody else. I can accept this. Given though that even the best pilot cannot fly a seriously defective aircraft, (obviously depending on the nature of the defect), you would think then that they would keep at least half an eye on their engineering departments. This for their own safety. But they have no interest whatsoever, seems at best a bit short sighted. At this point I would like to make a nod to those honourable exceptions, few in number, who do take an interest. As to the rest, are you as smart as you think you are?

So there may be an adequate number of people holding bits of paper but there is a real shortage of 'the right stuff'.

As I said in a previous posting I'm glad to be out of it soon. I have seen it at it's best and I don't like the way it's going.

Tournesol, I have just seen your last post. It may be a language thing, I certainly hope it is, but you come across as more than a little arrogant. Most of the engineers I know are very proud of what they do and do it because it's what they want to do.
Most of the crew I meet respect their engineers and treat them accordingly,(not withstanding the point I made earlier).

Greatwhitehunter,
I have never been disrespecfull to anyone because of their profession, race religion, sex orientation or skin color.
Funny enough I happen to have a number of LMEs friends that I respect and admire their skills.
The only ppl I have a problem, are the ones who start bitching about others.
Should the LMEs get better wages? I will be the one to fight for their cause.
Should they start compare their status to pilots? NOOOO. The two professions are not comparable.
That is MY OPINION and I am entitled to it. I will always respect your views even when they are different from mine. That is what make life interesting.

man you nailed it on the head, I am happy to be with a group who does not do this much but as I referenced before having experience as a flight mech I have seen 2 grown men act like children in the cockpit to go as far as to say endangered our lives slapping each other on final yet walk off the aircraft looking like dignified professionals. This was an extreme experience but the truth is those guys do a good job of not airing their dirty laundry and maintain a wonderful public image.

I have seen AMT's on the other hand brag about themselves or complain about others (usually a combination of both) in front of everyone, esp MGT looking for a leg up. Hell I now spend less energy fixing aircraft and more energy working on my self image for the betterment of the craft. I do not brag when I find a 3 month old smoking gun, I do not talk about the people I work with when they screw up. I do always refer to the person(s) I am working with as us, "we fixed it". I do give praise any chance I can "we had been working this pig for 12 hours and Johnny here found wire XXX shorted at this location"

Having said all that I really wish there were more AMT's/LAME's out their like me!!!!!:D

Tournesol,
Nowhere in my posts have I said that pilots and engineers should receive the same renumeration. My concern is the reduction in quality and competence affecting maintenance which is partly related to cost cutting and partly to the pay and conditions offered to new engineers. I would not want to see aircraft flying with a reduced safety margin. What pilots earn is their business and none of mine.

You are fully entitled to your opinions and as you say it's the differences that make life interesting. I was trying to make the point though that the way you sometimes expessed your views would be taken as insulting by some readers. I was positing the view that this might have been because english was not your first language rather than being intentional. On the other hand you might be arrogant and proud of it.:O

What will really make life interesting is to see UAV's operate in the private sector. Airlines for years have been trying to eliminate maintenance and operating costs. They have failed on the maintenance side, they have managed to remove one crew member thus far from the cockpit and replace him with automation.

So do I Grounded27. Sadly where I work changes are bing pushed through that are calculated to set everyone against everyone else and devil take the hindmost. It's a culture of appearance over everything else. A well respected LAE was bollocked for 'writing too slowly in the log', another got an 'attaboy' for clearing a lot of ADDs all of which came back on the next flight.
maybe Tournesol has a point maybe we are mentally deficient.:E

everybody will have a different opinion, the ones that are good VS. the ones that think they are good. so yes, there is a shortage of good mechs/techs/engineers.
but the sad thing is that good ones are getting frustrated because some management :mad: :mad: are taking the priviledges(that they deserve) of some hard working good guys. and yes, why bust your ass off if for the same amount of money you can just :yuk:

Grounded 27,

Wether we like it or not, changes will always happen.
Not too long ago they had 5 crew members in the cockpit of large airliners.
Over the years, the wireless radio operator dissapeared, then the navigator, followed by the flight engineer. We are down to two. It is just a matter of time before the pilot dissapears.
Similar things have happened every where. I recall a time when a car mechanic use to listen to the sound of the engine and actually fix an item when deffects are noticed. Now the car is plugged to a computor and the mec is "told" to replace a certain box.
That is just the way things are and will continue to change.

As for me being arrogant, that is your opinion.

Tournesol,
Please tell me , if the computer is u/s , who will replace or fix the defect ... a pilot ?

Please don't take my question as a snipe at pilots, the intention of my post was to question the percived "underclass" of the engineer, when they are as vital to the operation as the captin. Both pilots & engineers have a mutual interest to look after each other in my humble opinion.

Kengineer-130,
OK , sorry man.
I do not know if there is a lack of Engineers maybe , but the thing i am sure is that , nowadays , most airlines or companies are trying to save money by having less Engineers as possible , sad but true ...

Kengineer,
I can only speak for where I work where my experience has been that many engineers who have become managers do most of the damage to their colleagues pay and conditions. It is their activities that help create the engineering 'underclass'.
The second major cause is that unions in general do not support our aspirations. In larger companies we are a bargaining chip for the unions and they have no wish to see us get shead of anyone else. The ALAE did good work but was not recognised in many places and now they are part of Prospect, (time will tell on wheather this is a good thing).
lastly as I intimated earlier we don't hang together. If in any organisation, unionised or not, we supported one another we would be in a better position. Instead there is always someone who for short term advantage will sell out his/her and everyone else's future.

Even if you lay aside any arguments about what a pilots or engineers job is intrinsically worth the pilots will always do better because they do not fall foul of the above faults. If engineers are to be valued in future they must behave as a cohesive, professional group.

Grounded27. Your exactly right. We, instead of I.....
I'm a keen team player and if johnny found the problem, then it's johnny who gets the glory!! (as such. In a way of well done, now we can fix it and get her flying again)
I get fed up of all the I did this and I did that........ But I have found that if they break something, it's We did this and we did that!! Really.......
It was once pointed out to me by our Storeman that some licenced engineers have big egos. Refuse help from others as they don't want to be upper classed! Ever since I was made aware of this it is very obvious!
Its a shame to see!

Tournesol
 

I have never called you arrogant, quit being so defensive. As far as the radio operator and the navigator, they had been removed before I was born in western aviation. As for the auto mechanic, there are still naturally aspirated engines and mechanic enthusiasts. The modern auto mechanic deals with something similar that we do, the life of a car is getting shorter as are aircraft. All of the technology and self diagnostic equipment the manufacturer can install to sell the customer an aircraft that diagnoses its self, can't help them when the unexpected happens. The AMT/LAE who has been around for a while knows to be weary of following a FIM as an aircraft ages you learn to expect the unexpected.

Sadly I believe there is negative public/management perception of LAMEs. You have only got to look at the way the Pilots swan about the airport even in their civies with ties on etc. They can be total numpties, but they look the part.

Couldn't agree more about the new gen LAMEs reliance on the FIM, if you were to believe boeings FIM you'd be replacing wiring before the most obvious component.

If somebody could put up a cost analysis to management (that they could understand) then maybe we could prove the real worth of a properly trained, experienced LAME.:ok:

Yes, bring back the BCARs, todays baby LAEs lack competence.

Maybe not Shell ...
Could you please explain why bringing back the BCARs will "give" a better technicity as i do not see your point ...?
Are you european ?
Thats how things are nowadays in Europe and , Sir , we are in 2011 and you have to live with your time.
Are you still working at 64 years old ?

At the risk of greatly oversimplifying a complex and serious issue for the sake of lightening up a bit, let's not forget a rule of thumb that applies in most situations; if an engineer screws up fatally, it's the pilot who kisses his a**e goodbye, and if a pilot screws up fatally, it's the pilot who kisses his a**e goodbye.

An M3 MRO that I was once involved with decreed that the engineer who signed off an aircraft after work calling for a test flight should ride as the observer on the test flight, along with the company pilot. The ensuing outrage reverberated for months, centering around the declaration "Not my job, mate". They won, but I always felt the principle had a lot going for it. So far as pay negotiations went, it was a Pyrrhic victory for the engineers.

EGT,
Did you reply to my first question to Shell , i do not think so ...
Why are you talking again about this "jealous" stuff ...?
Some Frenchies got a position you were dreaming of ?
May i suggest you to read the EASA rules mostly about the grand-fathers laws ...
Personnaly , i will not say to an older Engineer how he should work.
It is not because you got a piece of paper before others that you are a "better" Engineer.
A need to justify that you are not a butcher ?
(my first AML is from 2003 , what about yours ?).
You are right , i did not pass a single license examination but two and this during three years of apprenticeship ...
On that time , I was doing lockwiring by hand and replacing wirings only by following the diagrams.
Do you think you are able to do it ?