Unions For Aircraft Engineers.
 

This thread is too ascertain what Aircraft Engineers truly think of their own union,if affiliated too one, and have individuals had experience(s) highlighting the strength of their union or weakness .

I have recently joined the ALAE, and understand Prospect represent their members, i consider this too be a good investment for the future as many individuals regard the ALAE too be a profesional body judging from various individuals i have spoken too, but i am fielding this thread too see what you guys/girls think and what your own experiences are especially appertaining too the ALAE, other union experiences also welcome.

ALL views and opinions welcome, (except childish crass ones).

:ok:

Just scrolling through the PPrune forums and notice this thread raised in 2010.................. 10 years ago and no one has replied except now, me! I wonder with all that is going on why the LAE's in the UK are not getting together more as a force and then I read this chap's thread and none of us replied, it's answered my own question really.

I have been a member of the ALAE in the UK since the day I got my BCAR Licence in the early eighties and continue to pay my subs via Prospect. I wonder what life would be like for us now if we had all joined the ALAE when we became licenced? I am convinced the reason UK pilots earn such nice sums today has lots to with the high number of them being members of BALPA.

I have heard good and bad stories about Prospect but trade unions are not like companies they are run by the membership, steered by the membership and exist for the membership and therefore if a trade union is not doing what it's members want then really you can only blame the membership or in our case those thousands of LAE's in the UK too tight to fund their only true voice in our world by not joining.

HubNuts, thanks for your question!

I understand many years ago, Balpa offered to represent engineers but this was declined by the then AUEW along with many engineers having the "us " and "them " mentality

Plus, never forget engineers can and always have been our own worst enemies at times. Overtime and working hours, the infamous now, thankfully, banned "ghoster " being a classical example.

Not sure of all that went on with the BALPA thing many moons ago maybe someone here could enlighten us to the story? I always thought that BALPA pulled out in the end, but I don't think a combined BALPA/ALAE TU would have ever worked, BALPA would have always overrode the interests of the LAE's when push came to shove. I still believe there are enough LAE's in the UK that could mobilise better than we do......

Still a member of ALAE though I think we’ve been forgotten in Prospect. I forgot to vote because I didnt recognise any representation. ALAE had a reputation of not succeeding much but the officials have worked very hard in my limited view, and we would not be here with Licences if it were not for them.
You are right in that LAEs are their own enemy in not forming alliances for working conditions - because they love working in those same working conditions...and the bosses love that too.

I completely agree with marvo. He has hit the nail on the head, we as engineers are too tight or lazy to be bothered until something happens and lots of screaming and blaming ensues.
I have been a member of ALAE/Prospect for decades including a few years as a rep. I gave up being a rep mostly because of the whinging and sometimes hostility from members and non members none of whom would lift a finger to help or further the cause but where very vocal when they thought that they were being wronged. I'm afraid it showed me how selfish most people are.
I have to say that I came across some truly dedicated people who obviously had more patience tolerance, and belief than I did. I'm still a member and have had a couple of occasions that I was very thankful to be.

How and when were Ghosters banned?!

Its about time as it was practices like this that meant that certain LAE's would always look after their pockets first rather than and try and act as a group to improve things......

It has brought me out of retirement literally. When will you engineers ever learn? If you want to influence anything you need to align under a single banner. It is the way of industrial life.
For those who remember, every attempt during my life time was basically sabotaged by lack of effort or the absolute back stabbing selfishness of the licensed engineer. SLATE, ALAE, Prospect you name it, it didn't succeed.
For every engineer with the balls to do his job properly and refuse to sign off aircraft that are not airworthy, there are 5 who throw integrity to the wind and sign.
You have yourself to blame that the worst option of all, Unite, has a foot in most companies.

The fact that no-one replied to the original question says it all.

I doubt you will ever wake up?

Quite frankly now I am out of it all, the best thing industry could do is get rid of the licence.

I've seen it all in the 40 odd years I've been in the industry.......There never has and never will be a level playing field when it come to LAE's. Some will do whatever it takes to "get on" or line their pockets whilst others will try and do the best job they can whilst standing up to management if required. Pilots generally all stick together and sing from the same hymn sheet. The lack of proper defined maximum working hours for Engineers has always been an issue which has been exploited by companies over the years. In my case the reduction in manpower over the last decade or so has been a major issue which companies can easily "fudge" when audits are held or be creative on MOE's etc! Overtime should be voluntary but too many LAE's and companies have relied on it in the past!..... I'm aware of LAE's who have been basically penalised for not doing enough!

Don't get me started on Unite!!!

Not long before I "engxit"....it can't come soon enough!

As far as I can recall, "ghosters " went out of fashion shall we say sometime in the late 80's, and I could be wrong here with the dates when the CAA decided to let it be known they "weren't happy " with the practice. …..which had taken them a rather long time as we know to arrive at this decision.

I am happy to concur with those who also feel that engineers are, and probably always will be, our own worst enemy when it comes to working hours, unity and the lure of overtime, the latter becoming essential for many who became over reliant on it being available.

To be frank, despite the attempts to provide a united representative body for engineers, I don't think this will ever materialise simply because engineers have an almost "masochistic " wish to be exploited by management who have never been averse to exploiting the divisons that we all know exist. Even more so when managers have come from the same background.

As far as I can recall, "ghosters " went out of fashion shall we say sometime in the late 80's, and I could be wrong here with the dates when the CAA decided to let it be known they "weren't happy " with the practice. …..which had taken them a rather long time as we know to arrive at this decision.

I'm aware of Ghoster's being worked much more recently so the transport industry opt out from EU Working Time Directive obviously allows this!

We had quite good representation in SLAET, then it got absorbed into RAeS, who then decided licensed engineers weren't clever enough for them unless we had a degree.
At same time ALAE were only interested in persons holding type ratings...despite the regulations at the time preventing anyone holding type rating for above 13,610lb MTOW, so had a distinct GA bias.

IMHO neither of these organisations are fit for purpose as Unions.

Ttfn

Never ceases to amaze me that people a) still don't understand unions and b) still repeat so much rubbish

@airsouthwest, who are they?
a union is primarily represented by those who work within the company, the employees (union members). They (employees, union members) elect internal representatives and set the agenda, the full time union officials advise with legal advice and support the agenda. So if "they" did nothing at Flybe then it was the internal work force who allowed it.

@ivor toolbox
having formerly been a member of ALAE since almost day one this statement is in my opinion complete nonsense and belongs in the box with many other false claims made over the years, "At same time ALAE were only interested in persons holding type ratings"
humans do tend to blame their own failings on others. Is this the case here or can you offer up proof of your claim?

I go back to my earlier point: When will you engineers ever learn?

Been in ALAE/PROSPECT since 1989. Worth it as it costs nothing being claimed against income tax same and Raes. Only works if everyone sticks together which sadly we don't as a profession !

Someone that actually understands what an internet forum is about!

When I was thinking about leaving the RAF I was looking around for a professional body that would help me with some recognition of my RAF record, so I joined SLAET. On demob I joined Bristow Helicopters but was told that any Union membership that I might have had would not be recognised by the Company, it did not cause me to reconsider my position.

During my time with Bristow the company went through a tremendous expansion during the 1970’s and 1980’s when a lot of new Pilots were taken on, many were members of BALPA who managed to start a strike. They tried to expand the strike on the airport (fire, air-traffic, baggage handling) but they were a bit heavy handed regarding other ranks (most Pilots were ex RAF). Engineers were having none of it and all the striking pilots were sacked. No Union officials lost their jobs as usual. When I joined RNAY Fleetlands I was multi-licensed, AFSLAET, in fact I had the same letters after my name as the Quality Manager but I could not get beyond Fitter. Our Union Rep sold us down the river and got elected as an MP. ALAE were making vague promises but they could not achieve much. SLAET joined with the RAeS but sank without trace after being asset stripped. Unions tried to get us in General Aviation to join up, but it is a large company thing so we stayed out. We were not lazy, we certainly did not receive large sums of money we just kept on employing a large number of people along with ourselves without interference from foreign bodies ( I’m Alright Jack springs to mind)

Getting engineers to agree amongst themselves is an impossibility. Three engineers five different opinions!!!!

Nearly as bad as the legal fraternity then!

I went to a seminar many years ago, organised by the CAA to introduce the prospect of EASA licence introduction as well as us reps from various UK airlines, and maintenance companies, a senior person ( possibly now deceased) from ALAE was there. I was member of ALAE at the time. Anyways, each time one of us airline reps asked a question, regarding BCAR A8-13 privileges and conversion to EASA format, said person would jump up and say "we ( A8-13 certifiers ) weren't licensed so what right did we have to ask questions....the only licensed engineers in the room were those holding type ratings... an lwtr was not a license"

I cancelled my ALAE membership next day in disgust at this lack of inclusion on the part of a senior member of ALAE

Ttfn

Small point of order here please. You forgot to include one sitting on the fence and another being in complete agreement, whilst being the exact opposite and working out how to gain financially at the expense of everybody else ….;)

@Ivor toolbox ...I recall the " the LWTR vs TR Licence " debate " ( euphemism ! ) carried on for a rather long time in the minds of some. Recall a letter, kindly published in full, in "Flight " from a recently retired QC gronk who, in his own immortal words, opined how he enjoyed "slipping them a crippler " when interviewing LTWR holders. Clearly would have been in his element certifying teradactyl's

This little tucked away thread is quite interesting.

@Krystal and Ivor what is the point you are trying make? We don't need licences or everyone should have one free? I genuinely can't find the point in your posts.

@ivor: A senior member of ALAE turns up at a seminar and defends his members position. Isn't that what he is supposed to do? Taken in context of the time (I am guessing somewhat it wasn't just pre EASA, it was possibly pre JAR). Are you aware that the original european proposal was actually called JAR-65 and was completely free of licences? Are you aware that the CAA in the early 1970's trialled an unlicensed system and incidents went through the roof? Personally I prefer higher safety standards.

@krystal: what are you saying, that you are so good you don't need a realty check every now and then or are you an experienced mechanic who believes he should have a licence for free but isn't prepared to work for it?

These sort of posts highlight whats wrong with the internet in my opinion. I think if this was a normal discussion between people in a room there would be much more depth to the conversation.
Internet promotes false outrage, a false belief in actual intelligence levels, short online tempers. Just love "I don't a need a lecture comments". Often made (but not always) by people who actually do need a lecture.

LWTR: Licence Without Type Rating. A holder has satisfied the requirements for the issue of an aircraft maintenance engineer's licence but hasn't a specific type rating. The basic licence wasn't given away in a cornflake packet as you know; it was tougher than any type exam I've sat because the questions could come from anywhere in CAIPs.
When I held a new BCAR LWTR in 1986 it was common practice for CRS approvals to be issued to competent non-type-rated licenced engineers by the QC department.

What is of concern to me, amongst many things EASA, is the way in which Cat A engineers are given more and more approvals stretching the boundaries of their privileges, not so noticeable in the UK but on mainland Europe some operators are taking the mick. Back in the early days of JAR66 the ALAE along with AEI reluctantly accepted the idea of a Cat A as a compromise, if they hadn't the licence was gone and it would be Company Approvals only. We need to challenge the Cat A privileges issue where ever we see it going wrong in our workplaces. I think the Cat A is not such a bad thing so long as it is kept under control, most of the Cat A's at my Company are studying for their B licences and the Cat A experience they are getting is doing no harm.

I took my first CAA LWTR exam (A&C Turbine Helicopters) at Southall College of Technology in 1989 completing 150 vote-for-joe questions (with negative marking for incorrect answers) and four written questions. The pass mark was 75% (90% with negative marks)

Having passed that, I was called for my CAA interview at the old Heathrow office. The surveyor marched me down into a room in the cellar where I sat at a desk with a pencil and paper on it facing the surveyor, a blank wall and a tall, grey steel locker. The "interview" lasted 4 hours, with no rests, during which the guy literally went through a copy of the Section L for helicopters (which included supersonic intakes and exhausts) and I had to draw and calculate electrical circuits and draw control system diagrams to show my understanding of each subject as they were asked. On leaving the room I sheepishly asked how I'd done - "You'll do" he said. A heavy envelope landed in my hallway some 6 weeks later.

After that, I did another three CAA LWTRs and subsequent interviews - the last interview (Large Aircraft) being about 20 minutes (with a coffee) I am now a B1.1, B1.2 and B1.3 licensed QAM for parts 21J, 21G, M and 145. It is my job to make sure that the guys and galls we employ are "competent"...and I do.

I'm sure there was an, obviously, unwritten rule that the surveyors would make the initial issue of an LWTR as difficult as possible and for obvious reasons. Thereafter, progressively less so. I was asked, as were many others, to draw various diagrams from CAIP's which was "fun " and to complete circuits whilst explaining what the various components did. Interestingly, there was very little on AGS standards.

Ah, the infamous negative marking. ! I am intrigued however as to why, with your background, you didn't get a dispensation for " the vote for Joe " questions. There was mandatory Air Leg, four written and for me 60 of the latter. However, I'm also aware people of similar experience didn't get the dispensation for reasons that were never really made clear to them

But, I was a member of ALAE ( as well as SLAET at the time) so.... it was my interests too that he should have been defending. It was pre JAR btw as you rightly surmise ; he was trying to argue that we A8-13 certifiers were less safe , some of us pointed out we were members, only to be ignored.

Ttfn

But, I was a member of ALAE ( as well as SLAET at the time) so.... it was my interests too that he should have been defending. It was pre JAR btw as you rightly surmise ; he was trying to argue that we A8-13 certifiers were less safe , some of us pointed out we were members, only to be ignored.

Ttfn

Likewise for me, ex RAF rigger, 8 essays (4 trade, 4 legislation) plus the infamous multi choice . I was given to believe at the time that it depended on what you had spent part of the last 2 years of your service working on, whether you qualified for the reduced multi choice, you had to have worked on live aircraft, and preferably one with a civil equivalent.

I was lucky, was able to take a part time work experience job with a locally based operator, working on G reg aeroplanes (their chief engineer was one of my neighbours)

After the written exams there was the wait for the letter....either telling you that you had failed...or inviting you to apply for the oral board. 4 or 5 hours in an office at Gatwick, the final question I had was " what does an engineer do when he first receives his new licence" ; which I answered, but my brain was too addled by this time to work out it was a way of letting me know I'd done OK.

Ttfn

In general terms they were less safe the statistics proved it. Of course in amongst all that there were some very good certifiers. It has been a source of debate for some time. Industry doesn't want to accept the truth as it would increase costs and they successfully lobby NAA's to keep this discussion off the radar.

Draw your own conclusions from several events. Back in the late 60's the CAA proposed a non licensed system. Legislation was submitted to make the change. When the A8-13 certifer trials ran in the late 60's early 70's incidents increased significantly. This resulted in the formation of ALAE and they successfully fought to keep the licence. The government official statement at the time was that the increase in incidents was not because of the A8-13 certifiers but because of the introduction of the 747.

My own personal experience of european unlicensed systems is that they are definately less robust, open to abuse and result in more incidents. This may be due to culture I don't know. For me safety without compromise comes first, therefore licence.

Union's for Aircraft Engineers .......................
Best Summary I could give, Back in the day. They wanted to push for a reduction in the working week from 40 Hours to 35 Hours. Due to their astute bargaining skills and foresight. The paid 1 hour lunch break turned into 1 hour unpaid. The union thought they did a great job. Enough said...............................

Utter nonsense. Which union, which company, which year?

Amalgamated Union of Engineering Workers (AUEW) was Pre 84 before they had the big internal union bust up between the internal branches. No interest in licence staff. all pulling in different directions internally, was a right mess.
EDIT - Thinking back it was a 45 Hr to 40 Hr week.

I keep paying my ALAE fees but I recognise that, apart from receiving fees, Prospect has no interest in us at all.

you still didn't mention the company. If it was pre 84 and it is true, naming shouldn't be a problem.

The reduced multi choice was a double edged sword,if the oral examiner had your multi choice answers in front of him he would go for your weak points.If he didn't he would go through the lot.
In 1982 my first attempt at a Section L LWTR I was an ex RAF J/T rigger and had only worked on fighters & bombers but I got the dispensation and duly failed my oral.