Quit Aviation Now. There are No Jobs
 

To all would-be apprentices there are no jobs in the industry.

If you are still serious find an employer first and then do your exams.

Don't bother with a pre-vocational course and they are not worth the time or effort.

If you work hard, have a good attitude and are reliable don't expect to find work.

If you have a previous career don't bother as you won't even make an interview. Industry will discriminate (even if they are not allowed too)

Bit harsh. Jobs around if you look hard enough. Scorned perhaps???

whissper: you are preaching to the choir. tell us something we don't know

Good written english may have been an advantage....

willing to move
 

I think the key to getting a job, especially that first one, is that you have to be willing to move. And I mean not just to the big cities. You have to be flexible. Also, don't expect to start off with your dream job, you need to do your time. By the way, I found a job and so do most people who are willing to move. If you just want to stay in Brisbane or the Sunshine coast, don't bother doing the course.

Do you know any employers who are actually looking for apprentices? Don't really mind if is mechanical or avionics (would prefer avionics) but it must exist as a job.

I would be quite happily willing to move but I do not know where the jobs are. I see little value in driving around the country trying to find an apprenticeship as I don't know where to find the employers. The CASA website is broken searching for maintenance organisations. I have found the yellowpages useless as most don't really advertise. Searching the web has been useless as many don't have a web presence except maybe an email address. The Australian newspaper occasionally has a advert for an apprentice and I do make application but that is as far it goes. ALAEA doesn't really have an apprentice listing. Aviation recruitment agents don't really advertise apprenticeships as there is no money in them. Most apprenticeships seem to come from word of mouth and if you are not in the loop then you will not know. I am to a large degree dependent on my "friendly" school but they are trying to wash their hands of me.

A problem with this industry is that if you don't fit the mould you are not wanted. You can be the brightest, hardest working person but if you are not regarded as being the right stuff then employment will be impossible. Those of use who have a very different background are viewed with a degree of suspicion and put in the reject pile.

Too early to give up
 

Hi whissper
My advice to you (an advice from a young guy that has joined the industry 2 years ago and recently got licensed).
Don't give up yet I know the apprenticship is the most difficult bit, But it's as the above posts mentioned you might have to consider relocating to even outside of australia if needs must and working as a mech, It's a bit hard to think of but thats how you get by in this field you have to get subjugated at beginning, I agree with you that doing the course without being employed already is useless but you did it now and there is no turning back it's either leave or keep your hopes up in the industry and keep trying, It all comes down to you, whether you're fond of the industry and are willing to compromise or not.

Seems to me like you've convinced yourself you're going to fail, and that it's somehow everybody else's fault.

There are jobs, and there are apprenticeships. Not many I'll grant you, and employers are very selective who they take. I'll lay bets they won't take losers who spend all their time whining about how hard done by they are.

Here's a simple multi choice question for you.

If at first you don't succeeed:
[a] give up and blame everyone else
[b] keep trying, do more research, ask for advice
[c] parachuting may not the the sport for you

:)

The problem is not the industry, it is you... or more specifically your attitude.

The fact you would even post such a dumb thread shows this.

If an employer is going to invest 4 or more years into an apprentice he is certainly not going to hire someone with a bad attitude. Think about it!

Whissper,

Aviation is not for pesimists, its for optimists.
The glass isn't half empty!
If that is your attitude don't bother in this industry, we are the first sector to feel the pain when anything happens globally and the doom and gloom mentality you have you wouldn't make it very long at all!
On another note who have you tried if all you have tried is Qantas and Virgin you have not tried very hard at all.
I have seen some peopele post on this web site they have applied 3 or 4 times to qantas and still not got in!!
Have you tried John holland if its the bigger stuff you are after?
What about GA companies Australia has many of those.
You really must choose mech or avionics you can't just say oh I will take what ever, sounds like you don't know what you want to an employer not a good look.

Whissper,

I would have to agree with you, I believe you may have been sucked in by some of the big promises Aviation Australia made when they got you to pay for the course.

I sat a CASA exam there a few years ago, everything looked very pretty, LOTS of keen students but when I asked one of the teachers where they expect to find jobs for all these kids......well the conversation went rather quiet.

If I was you I would be aiming my anger more so at Aviation Australia than the industry. There is no way there is enough jobs in Australia for all the kids they are sucking in and spitting out. Its easy to take kids money and promise them everything:sad:

here we go again
 

Having retired after 40 some years as a LAE I can speak with a little insight on this topic. Had one month without a job in those years. Had to leave the UK to
Saudia for 5 years while the jobs came back on line in the UK. You must sometimes move out of the comfort zone to keep a job. Having worked with moaners they are best to stay out of it, replacing a wheel at night in wind and rain you do not want someone who wants to work somewhere else.
Maybe I was lucky but I never didn't want to go to work to play with big boys toys mind you retirement is something I have got to like if this snow would leave and I could get on the golf course again.
Keep them up boys as may want to go south for the heat this winter.
:cool:

Further comments
 

It is interesting to note the how there seem to be two differing view coming from this thread. One is that attitude is everything and with that I agree totally. The other is that the industry is not all that is cracked up to be and that training organisations are really only interested in training more students and that jobs are scarce.

Right a little bit more background for those who have not read my other posts.

I have completed both mechanical and avionics exams to EASA standard. I finished at the top of my mechanical class. I did avionics to broaden my appeal to potential employers (and to actually get a mechanical license there is a requirement to have completed Modules 3 and 4 I believe but to a lessor standard). My ultimate aim is to be qualified in both. If pressed I would prefer avionics first but it really doesn't matter.

All my instructors have rated me favourably and I have seen their evaluation of me as being excellent. I got on well with classmates, did the work, understood the tasks, worked as team player, understood the concepts, etc. I really struggle to see how this does not translate into a least an interview.

I have applied for something like 14 roles in the past year. I didn't really care where they were (e.g. NT, WA, north Qld, etc) or who they were. Despite all of the above I CANNOT get an interview. I have asked repeatedly for employer feedback and it is not readily forthcoming. In particular my agency makes out that is the responsibility of employer and not them. Yet after so many goes can they at least explain to me why I have not at least made an interview.

QANTAS recruitment is now run by HR. I failed QANTAS psychometric evaluation and only because I pressed them did I get any answers.. The days of being the best are gone and now you have to conform to a "standard". Fall outside of the standard and you are not wanted.

I've talked to local operators as far north as the Sunshine Coast and south to Coolangatta. The impression I get is the EASA is not wanted by many aviation businesses. Sure EASA is wanted by the QANTAS, Virgin Blue, Jetstar, Strategic, Australian Aerospace, Boeing and maybe a handful of other employers. Yet MOST aviation maintenance jobs are in general aviation (there are thousands more GA aircraft than RPT). Something that is not explained well, if at all, by training organisations.

I have even taken a different approach of advertising for work in the national trade paper. I got four responses. Two died immediately. One lasted a week and I spent hours trying to find a contact phone number for them. The fourth lasted about a month and half.

The CASA website for job searching is broken and has been for months. It might be fixed by Christmas but more likely next year. I've asked for a CAO listing and they say they cannot give me one (despite it being shown on the screen). Many aviation maintenance businesses don't advertise in phone books and internet adverts are not reliable. Of the emails I have sent seeking employment there would be less than a handful who have responded.

You might understand a little of my frustration, anger and bitterness. Why is it that lesser quality students are GIVEN employment (the lowest two in my class were practically given jobs) yet the more capable are still wondering what they are lacking. When half my class are employed before or when they leave the school, it leaves a very sour taste in my mouth when months later nothing has changed for me.

Have you tried looking for an unpaid apprenticeship?
I mean working as an apprentice unpaid for a certain time untill you conform to the practical experience standard and get licensed then try applying for jobs again.
They might also hire you if they found out that you're a diligent person when you're doing your apprenticship unpaid.
If you still insist on getting paid you might try applying for a technecian job abroad, there is a handful of employers outside australia with a technecian vacancy.
Just a thought.

I have had 6 employers in 25 years of aeromaintenance, ranging from defense, airline through to GA. Defense trains well but its pure luck whether you end up at a good squadron or bad one plus the qualifications gained are poorly recognized out side of defense. Of my 5 civil employers, 1 was good (GA and small airline) the others were not good places to work. Several went broke while I was there with me losing as much as $10000 each time.

I have 5 trades, several grp20 and 21 but I choose to work as a self employed electrician, wiring houses, small factories and writing plc programs.

My point is that aviation is a very low quality employer unless you get lucky, I found one good one in 25 years and I stayed until they closed the doors but I am qualified and experienced. Starting out as an apprentice is a great way to learn a trade but not only will you not get one in aviation unless you know someone but your learning a useless trade. Go and do a trade apprenticeship learning something to do with the construction industry, its well paid and the work can always be local or not, your choice.

Your correct about EASA, if the poor employers dont drive you out of the industry then CASA will.

I hate to be negative, I like fixing aircraft very much but I like being paid and not being on call 24/7 more.

Anyway, my 2 cents based on my experiences, I am sure there are engineers out there who only have glowing recommendations for the industry, I just dont know any.

cheers.:)

Listen to what CAT1234 said. Wise words.

These aircraft trades are useless in the real word and I'm with him in getting out and getting a trade that you can use anywhere.:ok:

The golden days of aircraft engineering are gone, it's going to take a long time for this industry to recover.

Interesting reading the various posts. My experience is that the industry, especially airlines are only offering a low amount of apprenticeships. It also means that the academic qualification requirement goes up. That leaves the others that used to enjoy the chance with lesser qualifications or grades on the scrap heap, because their aren't any craft/manual apprenticeship schemes. If there are, they are limited. Unless it's in manufacturing of course.
The wannabe's that decide at a later stage in life they want get involved then have to face the other route of which includes starting at the bottom and sometimes working for nothing. Airlines, MRO's and some contract agencies in some cases will take advantage of this and I would say exploit. The aviation industry in Europe is on it's knees and most work is in the Middle East, Asia or Australia and the salaries are higher as well. Obviously there is a delta in terms of working conditions and management styles between ME, Asia and Australia but thats the way it is.
To say finding another trade or career path, well that is an option, but as a lot of people said, if you try you will EVENTUALLY find somehwere or something that suits you. Having been in the industry for 34 years and having worked for 6 airlines they more or less are ALL the same. Only time will tell in the current climate and lets ALL hope we enjoy what we did in the past. I'm afraid engineering is ALWAYS the pauper and money drain in airlines and has been the cloth cap trade and are treated as such.
Don't let em grind yer down, thats what I say :ok:

There is only one thing that keeps you going in this job - PASSION
Thats why I stuck it out for 30 odd years. There's no real money for all your trouble and study. motor mechs get more than I do. I also make more fixing machines at the Ice Cream factory. But I will always look up at that Boeing or whatever flying by. Its a sickness!!

Dont give up if thats what you really want.

I have been building "homebuilt" aircraft for some time now.
Have you looked at that industry. That is the future of aviation because more people are buying those things as they are better than some of the overpriced factory airplanes. There are more people being employed every day building new prototypes.
It can also be a good start to experience for a better career!

Yeah KK, I think Boeing are trying to build a prototype as we speak, unfortunately a few years late LoL ;)

I disagree. I graduated my avionics course in June and got a job offer just this afternoon from what is perhaps the nation's best airline. But not before:

4 phone interveiws,
2 group interviews,
3 formal interviews,
14 days of work experience 500km away from my home paying for accommodation at my own expense;
Driving thousands of kilometers up, down and all around the east coast of Australia showing up on doorsteps at regional airports I knew nothing about handing in resumes in person.

I applied at 17 businesses since I graduated, I even considered flight simulators. There are jobs if you try hard enough. Yes Aviation Australia is full of lies but you have to see passed that and realise it's a very competitive industry and probably >50% of the graduates are "unemployable". Companies want you to "fit their mould" because they have found that in the past, certain types of people work better than others.

How are you going to get hired as an apprentice at age 34 anyway?:confused:

This is important information because much as you seem to feel others are followers of your posts, what you've established is that you have no experience. You've made a grand total of 14 job applications. You're fresh out of school and have never worked in the industry, and therefore have no idea what you're talking about. You haven't scratched the surface when it comes to looking for work, and speak as though you're willing to give up before you get started.

This is important because it means your initial post has no credibility. Sorry you feel despondent about the state of the industry, but you haven't even started yet. It's a little early to give up. If you give up this easily, this early, then you were out of place in this business before you ever began.

More important information. You failed a psych exam because of your attitude.

How do you know what the good old days were like? You never worked in them.

You're aware that working for an airline is all about standardization and conforming, right?

You feel that you couldn't get the job because Qantas isn't looking for the best, but for conformists. What makes you think that having come from school, seeking work as an apprentice, with no experience, that you're "the best?" Little wonder you failed the exam.
Perhaps you're not as top-flight as you think.

Perhaps employers prefer to hire an employee who's just a little more humble and a lot less arrogant. You don't have the experience or background to support your arrogance. Drop it, and you might stand a chance.

Just had a quick look at the Aviation Australia Website and a couple of things come to mind straightaway (well three actually...)

1) Avionics (quote)
This is a full time course consisting of 38 weeks of structured theory and practical tuition.

38 weeks to cover; Course Modules;

Mathematics
Aerodynamics
Physics
Electrical
Human Factors

Aircraft Aerodynamics & Flight Control Systems
Electronic Fundamentals
Aircraft Systems (Autoflight)
Digital Techniques

Aircraft Systems (Electrical)
Aircraft Systems (Instruments Pitot Static)
Aircraft Systems (Instruments Gyroscopic)
Aircraft Systems (Instruments Other)
Aircraft Systems (Communication)
Aircraft Systems (Navigation)
Aircraft Systems (Airframe)
Aircraft Systems (Propulsion)

Maintenance Practices Avionics
Maintenance Practices General
Basic Maintenance Practices Structures


Aircraft Structures
Aircraft Material and Corrosion
Aircraft Hardware
Aircraft Electrical Hardware

OH&S in Aviation

Aircraft Handling, Maintenance Procedures & Inspections

38 weeks doesn't even scratch the surface...


2) Mechanical (quote)
This is a full time course consisting of 38 weeks of structured theory and practical tuition.

3) Structures (quote)
This is a full time course consisting of 34 weeks of structured theory and practical tuition.

So you elect to do all three courses say; then what?

After a total of 110 classroom weeks you know all there is to know about aircraft right?

God's gift to the industry right?

Totally wrong; in fact you know next to nothing and to most employers who are looking for experience you are a total waste of space.

I cannot speak for the structures guys or the engine guys but for Avionics I would say this;

To fully comprehend just the communications aspect of avionics alone requires a minimum of 15 months of continuous training; and then there's 15 months of radar training.

It puts me in mind of the wunderkinds who passed out from Brunel College after obtaining the old 5 Avionics licences; Comms, Radar, Nav Systems, Electrics and Instruments. Brainy as bu**ery but for the most part, absolutely useless when let loose on an aircraft. The company I worked for before I retired, sponsored and employed such a person and frankly was pleased when said person decided to go back home to Oz.

Apprenticeships are few and far between in any walk of life these days; why should an employer legally tie himself to someone who may prove totally useless, when they can get some kid off the street who is as keen as mustard, pay him peanuts or whatever the government specified minimum wage is, and then kick him out when times get rough.

So for a 34 year old, probably what you say is true...

Too little, too late.

pp

phalconphixer
Thats the way it is nowadays, Most CAAs around the world close ranks about the new EASA system which approves this 37 weeks course for a basic knowledge about A/C systems, It took me about 2 years to finish my avionics course in the 147 school from which I graduated (both practical training and theoritical), I still know next to nothing but I'm trying to cover the areas of defecencies (by reading extra material in my free time and researching onto whatever I dont know), Its not like if I did a 15 months training of communication solely I would know ''everything'' it's hard to claim to know everything, you need to somehow embody what you had studied in your theoritical classes to have a good perspective about it and here comes the work experience part, I'd say work experience is the most essential factor in determining who will be hired by employers and thats what he lacks currently.
That said I think he still has a potential I know his age could be a stumbling block onto getting an apprenticeship but he can still get in as a technecian and work his way up to engineering if he really wants to, Tries hard enough and stop being a pessemist.

Aviation Australia has only one role to fulfil.

That is to get as many students to pass the exams. That is really their only requirement. They do say that government funding is tied to job placements but the statistics can be broken down in a number of ways.

I (and others like me) feel screwed over by a system where despite doing all the right things at school, we never progress any further. Employers are discriminating (and I would say on age despite suggestions otherwise) because a 20 year old is still cheaper to employ and can be kicked harder than a mid-30 year old.

I've run out of job avenues to pursue as I don't know where to go next.

flame_bringer...


I think its the only way...

whissper
Of course you were screwed over! Along with anyone else who tries to break into this industry via this or any similar route. These schools exist purely to make money for the shareholders and that's the whole point of my post. It wasn't not a personal dig at you! Its just a huge scam; they are not in the least bit interested in your proposed career. All they want is your money (or the taxpayers via subsidies).

I came into the industry via the UK military and the training was second to none. After 12 years RAF, I then spent 10 years with a couple of equipment OEM's as a field service and trials engineer and finished with 15 years as an Avionics hangar rat with a major UK Defence contractor.

Ageism is alive and well in this biz. I found myself redundant at 62 with a mortgage. If you think 34 is a problem try 62! No-one wants to know! Early retirement was my only option.

To be perfectly honest, in your position I'd probably be talking to the RAAF about a short to medium enlistment term in aircraft engineering.
You could also try Cobham plc at;

* National Air Support (Adelaide, Australia)
* National Jet Systems Pty Ltd (Adelaide, Australia)
* Surveillance Australia (Adelaide, Australia)

But be prepared; HR and the bean counters between them run these companies. Do your homework / research. A bad or even an uncertain attitude will terminate an interview quicker than anything.

Good Luck.

Austrailia need a new cricket captain soon! :E

Total Bullshit
 

That's the premise of this thread it is FALSE. Aviation always has been at the vanguard of technology. From airframe to power plant vaiation leads the way. Take a career in aviation technology and you will never be out of work. Sure you may have to relocate. But you will NEVER be without a career. Every energy transfer on this planet requires your skills... from metal/plastic work to power plant..... they all use aviation technology. Could be that you are working in Shanghai with a cute Chinese wife but HEY..heads up!

According to Aerospace, the Journal of the Royal Aeronautical Society, there will be many thousands of new Pilots, and maintenance engineers required in the next few years, there many new aircraft on order from Boeing and Airbus. Someone is going to have to fix them.
Perhaps I was lucky, 15 years in the RAF, and then 29 years with possibly the worlds largest Helicopter company, including a stint in Africa.

I am sure that you have to be prepared to relocate, I believe my old company (Bristow) is training engineers in Aberdeen, but you would have to be prepared to do some time on the North Sea.

Dave

I don't know that aviation is the vanguard of technology so much as the occasional user of it.

Certainly certain aerospace aspects have had filter effects to the world: NiCad batteries, for example. GPS is an aerospace-based technology that finds global applications in areas far reaching outside aviation. However, much of what we find in aviation is by no means cutting edge, and often utilizes existing technology.

The mythical personnel shortage in aviation hasn't taken place yet, and won't.

Work is available in aviation; one frequently must travel to get it. Aircraft travel to make money; one has to travel to make money with them. It may mean uprooting and moving one's home and family. It may mean international transfers or commuting, or temporary assignments.

One can't expect to graduate schools and then demand one's salary and location. As an inexperienced neophyte, one is the beggar, not the chooser.

Just checked aviationjobssearch and came up with all this and by the way most of them are avionics technecian vacancies.
""""
You searched for aircraft technician.
Corrected to aircraft technician

http://www.pprune.org/global/images/...mplate/rss.gif
Your search returned 43 jobs, showing jobs 1-10
""""


I think you haven't tried hard enough mate.
There are jobs but definitely not for slack people.

There have been many posts on here complaining that "aircraft engineering ain't what it was", but that said it's always been something you have to want to do, and have to be prepared to do what it takes. Positive Mental Attitudes only need apply because it's a small world and employers very quickly know what sort of people will do the best job and work the best with the teams they have. Somebody may be very bright but if their face doesn't fit or they come over as gobby that's it. Way of the world in many industries, not only aviation.

This will not change and may only get harder. Air traffic growth has been driven by the LCCs, and the cost of fuel is a much higher part of their business model than the legacy carriers as their aircraft spend more time in the air with lower corporate overheads. Thus future rises in oil cost will impact their ticket prices hence demand and the size of their fleets. With them being such a large sector this will reduce the size of the world fleet and accelerate the phase-out of older aircraft as the shrinkng number of buyers seek fuel-efficient and maintenance-free new designs.

In the next 10-20 years this industry will be a shadow of its former self. Those with jobs will be the lucky ones, though they may not be well paid as engineers accept lower rates to stay employed. Those wishing to enter the industry will find it very hard indeed.

I don't wish to appear a prophet of doom but that's how I see it. If anyone has a more optimistic view I'd love to hear it.

My opinion is that you’re going about this the wrong way. Instead of doing an apprenticeship go in as a trade’s assistant. I sure no employer wants to put a 30+ year old guy into an apprenticeship as they know they are consigning him into 4 years of indentured slavery . You cannot maintain the lifestyle of an adult on those wages.

CASA requires 21+ years of age, Exam basics, Speak English and 4 years’ experience. NOT a cert IV OR an apprenticeship

There are plenty of jobs out there. Some hangar's look like retirement homes, we always need fresh blood!

Different Perspective

I completed the Aviation Australia Training course in its 2nd year of operation, Airlines knock on our doors about 3 months before it ended, about half my class were hired to go to sydney to commence apprenticeship (before Hangar 3 opened). I did my time, got back to BNE not long after hangar 3 opened, got my trade cert and walked out the door to become a regular electrician. Since then the GFC hit, 2 of the companies i worked for went under, i never got said sparky ticket (im about 6 months shy) however i now get paid the same as a level 4/5 LAME, with phone, company ute, laptop etc etc and i cruise around the place installing and maintaining security alarm and CCTV systems for woolworths group. And i couldnt be happier.

I miss the planes, the work but the dollars are ****, job prospects are ****, and you only have to look at one of my relatives who is a 20yrs+ serving LAME with Sunstate to realise the big airlines pretty much think you're a glorified mechanic/auto electrician and you're not worth pissing on if on fire.

If you're in brisbane with all the floods about try get a sparky trade or fridgies trade.

Old Mate

If you did not have the background of your training you would not be in work now.

Thats the thing about aviation eng training. It is versatile and always up with technology.

I agree with you that most people say in UK or Australia think engineers are lesser people. Then again most UK/Aust engineers let themselves be treated like chit.

Thats why there WERE unions.

Hi!

In the US, guys are saying the same thing about pilot jobs.

There are lots of jobs, and the number of openings in all aspects of the aviation industry are just now starting to accelerate at an astounding rate.

This week, and airline in China ordered 50 A-320s, and one in India ordered 180.

It is NOT easy, but there are jobs and a career to be had!!!

cliff
AMS
PS-Just noticed the EK banner ad below this post on this page looking for more pilots. My buddy just got info from EK, and they said for every new A-380 they need 64 pilots.

Cliff,

This is a forum for mechanics, not pilots. The individuals here aren't talking about finding pilot jobs. It's an entirely different animal.

whisper, why dont you do the modules on your own and join a aviation company for free labour just to collect your log books and from there you can catch some contacts and climb up.no need for any special apprenticeships

No jobs
 

Whissper, there is no doubt that most of the work is now contract based. Few Companies want more than a skeleton crew of permanent staff. It is hard to be a contractor in Aviation without experience. However there are a few labour hire firms around which may be helpful. At your age you might want to go down the work experience path as well get some experience and get known. A good atttude and skills are still valued.

I have been in Aviation since I was 19 been through 5 different employers over 32 years. I am still employed in a technical role and sometimes wonder if it would be nice to be unemployed for a while. The short story being if you stick at it and you have what it takes you will make it.

J