Aero graduate
 

Hello this is my first post and I was wondering if anyone on this forum could please help me.

I graduated with an aeronautical engineering BEng nearly 2 years ago. I have applied to a number of graduate schemes (with Airbus, BAE Systems, Qinetiq, Rolls Royce) since graduating but with no success. I have been working in jobs that are not related to my degree and certainly don’t require my uni education. My career isn’t going anywhere at the moment, and I feel I need to do something drastic now before it is too late.

I am considering doing my matching sections by completing an MSc (possibly form Cranfield), hoping that it might increase my chance of securing an engineering job at the end of it. Is it worth it, or is getting some sort of work experience in the industry to bolster my CV more important? If experience is more important what is the best starting point?

Any suggestions for my current situation? I don’t have a particular sector of the industry that I want to get into (although I did enjoy my in-flight testing program during my uni course). I guess for me it’s a case of near desperation before I run out of brain cells. Any help or pointers would be gladly received.

Thanks,
pride and joy

P.S. I am considering joining the Royal Aeronautical Society for an Associate membership for £60 pa, hoping that it will help with my networking and increase the number of contacts that I have within the industry. Are anyone members and is it worth it?

There is a shortage of engineers in certain areas at the moment, eg; systems architecture/integration, stress analysis.

Have you tried applying to the small stress/design contract companies such as GED, Magellen, Morson Inbis. These do not necessarily run formal graduate schemes such as airbus or rolls royce but are good places for learning the stress or design trade.

Thanks for the reply. Haven't heard of the contract companies before, but it sounds interesting. If there is a demand for systems architecture/integration engineers and stress analysis engineers is it easy to get into it without any prior experience?

Thanks.

Hi Ppruners, after 2 yrs of skulking around this thread made me join, so.. I seem to be a similar case here. You see, B Eng just doesn't seem to be enough, even if 1st class. Big companies with graduate entries seem to prefer Master degree graduates as there is enough supply of those. With bachelors, one's chances of joining may be better if one has done a placement with them. I just secured an internship at an airport abroad, and the credit for that goes to my uni's careers department. Or, as portsharbourflyer suggested, small businesses are a great way as well, most of my course mates have gone that way. Good luck anyway.

Sounds as though things are not quite so good now for graduates as they were when I graduated in the late 90's. However I can assure you that if you step into any aircraft design office you will generally see a bit of a demographic problem (lack of young staff), so there is certainly the need to recruit the youngsters in order for the UK aerospace industry to survive.

SARTOR requirements for chartership now require four years of acedemic study, ie: MEng or BEng with an MSc, alot of the large company graduate programmes are geared towards achieving chartership, hence why just a BEng may not get you onto those schemes. However getting chartered isn't actually that important, what is more you tend to learn most of what you need on the job (you do use aspects of the degree more so than in other industries), but a years experience in industry training is far more useful than an extra year at university. Infact I know plenty of stress analysts whom have only ever held a hnc or hnd.

To summarise the industry is short of engineers, P and J, your lack of experience shouldn't be too much of an issue, as a fresh graduate even if you are not on a formal training scheme, I have found in the small companies experienced engineers are generelly happy to pass on knowledge and advice. If you can follow an ESDU data sheet you should be fine.
There is a shortage of stress analysts and other specialisations, so I would expect some companies are prepared to take on graduates as trainees.

Hi W.R.A.I.T.H thanks for the reply. That was what I was thinking too: big companies prefer Masters degree graduates because it is one step closer towards chartered status. Yet, perhaps companies may prefer BEng + indsutry experience over Masters + no industry experience.Totally confused.

Congratulations on securing your internship abroad - I hope it all goes well for you. How difficult was it to secure it without any prior experience (perhaps you have some industry experience already), and is it a technical placement?

Thank you for the advice. The industry from your point of view seems to be encouraging for graduates, and it's nice to hear some good news! Perhaps next line of action is to pursue to get a foot in industry, and maybe company will sponsor matching section later. This may sound like a stupid question but what type of work goes on in the design office?

Thanks again.

Hi P'n'J, my industrial experience equals something around nil unless endless tampering with my car counts - that's actually why placements are here, to get some. Mine's more of operations than engineering, which I'm happy about, although I would have enjoyed stress analysis just as well and am not ruling it out for the future in any case. Try and get in touch with your uni's careers office, they should have someone for international relations, so tell them you are interested in getting somewhere out and they'll tell you what can be done. It takes some courage and a lot of luck, just as everything, but it sure looks amazing on your CV afterwards, not to mention the language. And if you're extremely lucky and handleit well, they might as well offer to finance your Masters or something. Definitely worth a shot.:ok:

P and J,

Remember my advice is coming from one corner of the industry and there are numerous other specialisations you can become involved with. But in answer to your question what goes on in a design office? Well it is a bit if a generic term I suppose and almost impossible for me to summarise, and my experience is mainly mechanical, think of it the place that produces all the documentation that is required to produce (ie;instructions for manufacture dwings and cad files), verify (ie; performance test reports, structural verifiaction in the form of stress analysis reports, reliability prediction reports etc) and approve a design(ie; safety reports, compliance with oringinal specs etc). I suppose in aerospace I could categorise design offices into two types, those that are onsite tagged onto a manufacturing site, by far the more interesting to work, as you can easily access the equipment you are designing/analysing, where everything and anything goes on. The second are the stand alone design/analysis contract "houses" that take on sub contract design and analysis work and often isited away from the place of manufacture. It is always difficult getting the first position, but if companies are not currently taking on graduates we certainly need to be. Aero industry can be very boom and bust, but we are currently on a boom period and it should be good for five years or so. Good luck, P and J have you applied for the GKN Aerospace graduate scheme?

Hi W.R.A.I.T.H. Had an appointment with a careers adviser today at my old uni. The short time we had wasn't as productive as I would have liked, but we did discuss some aspects of CVs and applications and some positive points did come out of it. I guess is all about being patient and keep working hard, although I do admit that sometimes I like feel that I am wasting my time, :ugh:.

Hope you'll enjoy your time abroad, and all the best for the work whilst you're out there.

Thanks,
pride and joy

Sounds like, if I am correct, that the design office acts like the central hub for the entire operation of designing, farbricating and testing of a new aircraft(?). I haven't yet tried the GKN graduate scheme, so I'll definately give it try. I think I will now concentrate on more smaller organisations, and perhaps get some new contacts if possible from within the industry through my old uni or perhaps RAes. Thanks for the wise words and advice portsharbourflyer, it's definately been an encouagement. I'll post an update if I make any significant progress over the next few months.

Thanks,
pride and joy

We were all fresh graduates at some point. Your summary of the design office, nearly correct, these days you only tend to get to work on one part of a complete aircraft (ie; the wings for example ) as most projects are joint european cooperations, hence we only get to do bits of aircraft.
At a small compnay then everything and anything will go on in the design office, at a larger institution you will have departments dedicated to a particular tasks (hence no defined deisgn office but a multitude of departments contributing to the design task).


I envy the people whom were in the industry in the 50s and 60s so many whole aircraft projects going on.

Anyway good luck

I am just about to start a MEng course at Uni, and will be taking the placement year as i have three friends all with Aerospace and Aeronautical degrees and working in jobs that you can walk into after school.

The problem, experience. So taking a year in industry in year three is the way to go, as least then you get a years experience, and then that could lead to that company sponsering or offering you a job, and most placement years are paid almost grad rates.

I do however have one friend who works for a company supplying Airbus, and he finds himself over in france a fair bit recently, and all he has is a HND in Aero Eng. The case of right time right place i think...

What Uni's did you guys go to? You think a placement year really will make any difference to my employability in 5 years?

:rolleyes: I know how you feel guys.

I'ev just graduated from Loughborough Uni which is one of the best unis in the country with a specialised degree in aviation. most airports/airlines dont seem to have grad schemes and ones that do have rejected both mine and other coursemates CVs - depsite the fact we have a degree background in their type of business.

I am now working in a job where i am the only graduate in the office, and no use is being made of my degree! sometimes i wonder if the 16k was really worth it.

My work experience is relevent, but the acutal openings seem scarce.

I am considering leaving my current job (advertised as a "graduate position :rolleyes: ) at the end of my trial period but do worry about how this would look on my cv!

FT

Know how you feel. Got a BEng from Aston - applied to loads of jobs/grad schemes with no such success. Many of my classmates went on to do either Masters or PhD's or leave the field of Engineering. I decided to go down the PhD route. I think with the amount to graduates at the minute, you have to give yourself the edge of others applicants - so postgraduate study seems to be the best way to go.

Good luck!

Yes there are quite a few people doing PhDs' these days who don't intend to go into academia or go into research positions. I started out doing my PhD because i wanted to do some really dedicated research but now that i am almost finished i want to move out into industry. Just a word of warning though, a PhD can be equally good and bad when it comes to looking for industry jobs. A number of people i know who got their PhDs in the last couple of years had quite a bit of trouble getting work afterwards. Its ok with the big companies like Rolls-Royce and Airbus, they understand the PhD qualification and often recruit PhDs straight into their engineering departments depending on expertise. But for smaller companies you can find that the PhD can scare them off! I've heard from a number of people that they got turned down for interview because they were deemed to be "overqualified" for a graduate position. Either that or the employers believe that you will demand a higher salary for doing the same job as someone with a BEng/MEng. It comes as quite a shock to some that they are only offered the same basic starting salary as a standard graduate but thats the way it goes. I'm not trying to put anyone off but just be aware that if you go down the PhD route you may have to battle quite hard to get across to potential employers what you have to offer and that you are not some mad-boffin type.
One piece of advice i would give if you want to do a PhD and then go into industry is to be very careful about the subject of your research. Try to get something which involves working very closely with an industrial partner, preferably something partly funded by industry, so that you can cite on your CV that you have experience working directly with industry. You would be surprised the difference that can make on getting called for job interviews etc.

Agreed 100% Merlin505! If you can find an indsutrially funded PhD (CASE) or an EngD, it means you will be working along side an industrial partner. Mine involves some work with BAE and Airbus. I wouldn't have done a PhD that didn't in some way involve industry, as my intention is also to go into industry after my PhD.

The trouble with an off spec Phd (one not backed alongside a company) is the subject matter is too specialised to be any use in industry (which is essentially what Merlin has stated), don't get me wrong I appreciate the fact that the research from Phds serves a useful purpose.

The majority of PHd holders I have worked with in industry are still doing the the exactly the same job as BEng or MEng holders, and on the whole you will get no financial benefit from having a PHd. If you don't go onto career in academia (research or lecturing) then all a Phd gets you is the title Doctor.

Essentially for the majority of graduate jobs in industry the thoery content of an HND is perfectly adequate to do the job, remember the majority of engineers whom designed the BAe1-11, Concorde probably only ever held the equivalent of an HND, misfortuantley the requirements for chartership have now been raised to fours years of acedemic study (MEng or Beng + Msc), so it is rare the HR department would now accept just a HND. I accept the current situation is forcing you to look to post graduate study, but in my opinion this isn't what the industry needs.


Planecrazy, I didn't do a year out in industry, but on my course it would be fair to say that those whom opted for the year most were taken on by same company after graduation, mind you the pay for a year out is nearly half to two/thirds that you would get as a graduate (at least it was when I was at University).

So i am pretty sure i will stick with the placement year plan, i was told 15-18k for the year, i really have no idea on what grads get for a starting salary. Which leads me to a question, how much is they pay? I have done no research on this, just have a desire to work in aviation.

Another thing i wanted to ask, do many or any employers let the University studdied at influence the decission in giving you an interview or job? Is there a list of Unis for Aero Eng with the best at the top, and the least regarded at the bottom, i have seen such lists for Mechanical engineering, but not Aero.

I am off to Brunel, is this a good/goodish Uni to study Aero Eng at?

Finally, Aeronautical Engineering or Aerospace Engineering, Or Mechanical with Aerospace engineering?

thanks...

A few thoughts - I've a BEng (supplemented later by a PhD for the hell of it) and have been knocking around the UK aircraft industry for a couple of decades without (so far) managing to be unemployed. Incidentally, I got my CEng before they required an MEng, so that particular issue has never troubled me.


- Work experience counts for more than anything. Relevant work experience that is. Do anything you can to get it.

- If you really, really, can't get work experience (even unpaid) a relevant MSc is almost certainly the next best thing.

- A PhD sounds impressive, but only really if added to professional experience, not instead. You won't get much special treatment as Dr. inexperenced engineer compared to Mr. inexperienced engineer. This is even true if you want to work in a university - although substitute research for work experience to a large extent (+ publications record).

- Brunel courses. The Mech+Aero is basically mecheng for people who want to work in the aerospace industry. The aerospace engineering course has rather more aeronautical content, but is substantially similar. The aviation engineering course bins a lot of the more "pure mechanical" stuff in preference for much closer concentration upon the flight vehicle. All good courses, pick what suits your interests closest. Brunel hasn't much of an aero tradition, but is one of the biggest and best engineering departments in the UK, so you're unlikely to regret going there.

- Yes, do join the RAeS, but don't just join. Use the careers department, go to local branch meetings, attend headquarters lectures. In other words, learn stuff and network with people.

- The big company graduate training schemes are great - if you can get onto them. To just slot into a job, small companies will show you much more breadth. In either case, never ever send a standard application and CV. Spend days, per application tailoring it exactly to the company to whom you are applying.

G

CEng FRAeS

For my year in industry i was lucky on the pay scale (maybe not on the job quality!) I was paid 17k, plus accomodation, and travel to the uk once a month ( i lived abroad) downside was that i worked from 8am - 8/9pm and constantly on duty.

As for my pay now increased - im on 18k with no benefits whatsoever. When i challenged this (as now i am qualified with a degree, surely im worth more than 1k more a year!) I was told i didnt have the experience in the field that i was going to be working in. So far in the month of so i have been here there is little to challenge me. I know that life shouldnt be all about the money, but when you have very little of it, all of a sudden it does!

If i could have afforded not to have a job and thought about what i wanted to do and the career path i wanted to take then that would have been my option - unfortunately my financial position doesnt afford me that luxury.

I saw a graduate magazine in my university careers office a few months ago and off the top of my head i believe that the national average starting salary for graduate engineers is approximately 20-21K. Obviously that will be subject to regional variations etc. YThe magazine said you can add an extra 1K per year onto that figure if you have a PhD apparently. Although as portsharbourflyer has already stated if you are being recruited onto a graduate scheme or into a standard graduate position don't expect to get anymore than anyone else for your PhD. At the end of the day its a recruiters market and if you don't want to take the low-paid job to get your foot in the door somebody else coming behind you probably will. The only sad thing about that is that alot of good people are doing aerospace degrees etc. and then going off into other higher paid sectors such as finance.

I agree with Genghis work experience is vital! If you are doing a PhD which involves extensive wind tunnel testing or CFD code development/ CFD commercial package use then you can expect that to stand you in good stead for going into industry too, so long as you don't mind going into the industrial research sector.

This post is amazing me. Back of Flight Magazine (e.g. 15-21 Aug 06) always going on about lack of engineers yet it seems many unemployed gradutes about and with BAE trying to leave Airbus the future does look bleak for British aviation. I left working in Europe (UK & Ireland) due to low pay and I see on this tread the starting salaries have practically not moved since I left UK 10 years ago (so considering inflation, starting salaries have gone down in real terms). Also I get regular updates on job offers and to be honest I earn more outside the UK (permanent job, not a contract so tax and all is paid :) )before I take into account higher cost of living in the UK.
I thank Kingston Uni for my year out, the experience got me my first job (pay is not really an issue for your year experience, all I got was 100F a week working in Bordeaux, had just enough for beer and parties :D but the experience started my career and in addition an appreciation for food, wine etc so thanks France, so Kingston gave me a degree and a lifestyle :ok: )
At present I take on one student a year from the local uni (I remember the efforts I went through, so started this scheme two years ago and instead of getting a temp for basic office work, I get a aero eng student. So it was not a fancy proposal to the board etc and is not formal but its a start) and I am happy to say it gave one engineering student a kick start to a good career at a local airline.
If any other engineers looking, they should also give back to students (tell the accounts people it's cheap labour and at least you have a better chance of getting an eager person that some grumy temp, even if it only for scanning in documents or creating jobcards).

Thanks for the, people keep telling me that Brunel is more an Engineering Uni than and Aero Eng one, so what are the top Aero Uni's around?

I am having issues with my C1 Medical, so i am not sure if i can be a pilot, if i cant i want to be involved with aviation, i am interested in Design and Planning. I really have no idea what degree would suite me the best, i have asked many people, and have asked a few times on here, but i am still as confused as ever.

I am going to Brunel to do a FOE course as i never did a direct science or maths A'level and they wont take me even though i have good A levels in other subjects. So in a few months time i am going to be applying again for a BEng or MEng course at Brunel or another Uni, i am really after some info on where the best regarded Aero eng courses are, and what course would suite me the best out of the different Aero eng courses offered?

GTE seems to have some good knowledge on this industry, i would really value to good information and it is much appreciated and before any one says so, i have look through this forum board but cant really find what i am looking for... Thanks

Planecrazy, don't threat Brunel has a good reputation.

When I did my aeronautical degree alot of the modules were common with the automotive group. First years of most aeronautical degrees will concentrate on core engineering subjects (materials, engineering mathemathics, stress, fluid dynamics,drawing) you may not actually study anything in hte first year that is aircraft specific, even the second year was still 70/30 split between generic mechanical engineeering and aircraft specific subjects. In the final year alot of the modules will be optional, hence I seleceted subjects that were aircraft specific (eg; Flight Dynamics), however it would still have been possible to select the majority of modules that were common with automotive. My point is an aeronautical engineering degree is essentially a mechanical engineering degree, so why you may be interested in aircraft you also need as much interest in core mechanical engineering to match in order to suceed in aero.

On the subject of pay, contracting is normally the only way to make decent money in engineering, but you will need a few years experience to be able to contract. So we all had to put up with "permy" salaries for a while.

While I am generally optimistic about the industry, the latest threat to the UK is the advent of low cost design / stress contract organisations based in India.

One bit of advice is make sure your aero degree includes the flight test week in the Cranfield NFLC, that is the highlight of any aero degree.

Thanks for the reply, is an Aeronautical degree more suited to deisign or project management that Aerospace Degree? Or even Aerospace with Mechanical Engineering? Because i am going an Foundation year i have a little time to choose the MEng course i will be doing, think i will stick it out with Brunel, they seem good and reputable. Is there a list of top aero eng courses? or who are regarded as the best for Aero eng out of the UK Unis?

i am in exactly the same boat and is really not doing much for my confidence. I have even tried for work experience but finding that difficult too

Polkm,

Don't let it screw you up, whatever happens. Better days will come, although they may not be in the aerospace industry. It's not worth the grey hairs. We should all have been studying ferret sexing!

N

A quick update:

Still no aero job :ugh:

Hi Polkm,

Sorry to hear about your situation. Have you thought about a postgrad degree? Whilst doing my undergrad BEng in Electrical/Electronic Engineering, I got to mix with alot of PhD research guys in my department who were sponsored by various Aero companies. BAE, Airbus, Goodrich to name a few. Having the ambition to work in aerospace myself and not coming from an Aero background, my industrially sponsored CASE PhD has open many doors that weren’t open to me as both a Bachelors graduate, and non-aero graduate.

Why not have a look at an industrial CASE PhD or EngD which is sponsored by an aero company? You’ll work for 3 years on the cutting edge of novel technology, both at the academic institute and the sponsoring company.

I’m half way through mine with BAE/Airbus and it’s been fascinating so far.

If you’re interested, www.jobs.ac.uk is a great place to start.

Good luck matey. :ok:

Scruggs

Yes I have thought about a postgrad deg but whilst it may open many doors, it can equally keep doors locked if you do not have a 'useful' phd. Most phds are sponsored anyway so it is not so much the money that concerns me, it is the lack of experience as a fresh graduate. Having said that, i know I now know how important a summer placement while at uni is so important. I am even finding it difficult to find unpaid work experience in the aero industry :yuk:

Cheers for the info, much appreciated

Polkm



Like your login btw :ok:

Nowadays few people will look at you for a PhD without an MSc first anyway, unless you have lots of relevant industrial experience instead.

But, a relevant MSc to the area you'd like to work in can certainly open a lot of doors.

Frankly PhDs! - looks great on your business card, makes it possible to work in a university, little bit of street cred, but not something to do as a career-enhancer otherwise. I did mine because I wanted to do the research, and I don't think that there's another good reason unless you desperately want to be a university lecturer.

That said, the going rate for a PhD studentship at the moment is about £12,500 tax-free, which although hardly generous, isn't too bad, particularly since you can still live like a student.

G

No worries Polkm.

Just to follow up......

The standard tax-free rate for a CASE PhD is as follows:

Year 1: £15,000
Year 2: £15,300
Year 3: £15,600

Basically if you're not on a CASE/Industrial PhD, subtract 3K off each of the wages stated above. And it's even better for an EngD.

Plus I get to do a bit of undergraduate lab demonstrating at £13.00 p/h. Not bad really. When I talk to mates who have gone into industry, most comment on what a good salary it is considering we are still classed as students. I generally pick up around £1400 a month, which covers my rent, food and beer!

The majority of companies I have already spoken with about future employment, including a few well known Aero companies, say that they see PhD research as "industrial experience". So when I graduate, I'll have +3 years industrial experience. I wouldn't have done a PhD otherwise.

What amazed me was that within around 6 months of starting I had two companies (both UK aero) asking me to get in touch in 2008 for a job, and that's excluding my sponsors. That was something I never expected.

But as G pointed out, you really have to want to do the research. Being in it for the Dr title is the wrong reason to be in it, and believe me, I’ve met a few of these title chasers in the past!

Most importantly….you can indeed live the student life. Today I felt like a lie in – so I had one. I also felt like leaving early to go for a few beers with the boys, so I did :}


I'll just make up for it tomorrow :ugh:


All the best Polkm. Keep us updated.

Hi Everyone,

I forgot to mention that after graduation I actually worked for six months in a general engineering firm, then another year in a firm doing defence projects which had aspects of aerospace work but were mostly based around ground support equipment, so I had a year and half exeprience in "general" (apologises for the vague term) engineering before I started working for a firm that specialised in aerospace projects. In other words look to gain experience in any engineering sector, when I first posted on this thread the industry was indeed short of engineers, recent developments means things are perhaps not quite so good now, but I still personally think experience in industry is more useful than a PHD, even if it is designing washing machines or something. Approach local universities to see if they have any regional gradaute development schemes going, these used to involve doing six monthz "post gradaute" work experience with a local firm combined with a short research project in conjunction with the university.

That all depends on what kind of work you're looking to go into. The reason I chose a PhD was because I wanted to work ideally in R&D. Granted, you can do this as a graduate too, but these opportunities I found were/are very few and far between. If I wanted to work as a front-line aircraft engineer for example, then obviously a PhD isn’t the way to go.

As for what companies look for specifically in their R&D people, this must vary from company to company. We get a lot of companies, not just aero, frequently visiting our group to try and recruit guys who are about to complete their PhDs, which does illustrate that some companies do appreciate the value of a research degree. Other companies like to train in-house, and run specific R&D graduate schemes. But as I said, these are thin on the ground.

But, I do believe that being industrially sponsored makes a huge difference. That way, you get to work along side your industrial counterparts on an industrial project. We have some non-sponsored students and their projects appear to lack the drive and focus that the sponsored projects seems to have.

Anyway, each to their own. Hopefully my research will lead me to the job I want. Although, as I said in another post, a mate of mine who has just finished his has been offered a job in London as an investment banker, starting on £120K a year + bonuses. Now that sounds awfully tempting :E