Pressured to sign the release?
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Pressured to sign the release?
How many of you have refused to release an airplane becuase you are not happy with its condition? How many have been pressured to do so and then hauled before management for refusing?
Last edited by Ravintola; 30th Jul 2003 at 16:49.
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At my last job several times on both accounts. All I had to say was I have a licence and you don't. Do you want me to go and ask the regulators about this. Next thing I was given a stern warning that this was not acceptable behavior, and that was it. If this is what work is like at that company, then get out. It is not worth the head ache and frustration, or your integrity.
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Agree with RWM.Don't sign if your not COMPLETELY happy with what could be a permanent loss of licence plus Jail-time if the **** hits the fan (negligence)Don't made threats to go to regulator,DO IT !!
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All of us?
Rav,
My guess is that at some time every engineer has been pressurised into signing a release. whether it has gone over to a b
king for refusing is another question. However it is their job to pressure us, they want the a/c serviceable, and it is our job to say NO if we feel it is not safe.
The only other thing I would add is that there were some things that I may not have signed in my early licenced days that now with the benefit of experience I would be happy to sign. Just as there are some things I may have signed in my early days that bring me out in a cold sweat!
Where some doubt exists consult with a colleague, another opinion always helps.
But at the end of the day, it's your licence so if you don't like it don't sign. As I once said to my boss 'If I sign that and it goes in, I'll loose my job and my licence. If I don't sign it all you can do is take my job, and I'll always get another one!'
My guess is that at some time every engineer has been pressurised into signing a release. whether it has gone over to a b
king for refusing is another question. However it is their job to pressure us, they want the a/c serviceable, and it is our job to say NO if we feel it is not safe.The only other thing I would add is that there were some things that I may not have signed in my early licenced days that now with the benefit of experience I would be happy to sign. Just as there are some things I may have signed in my early days that bring me out in a cold sweat!
Where some doubt exists consult with a colleague, another opinion always helps.
But at the end of the day, it's your licence so if you don't like it don't sign. As I once said to my boss 'If I sign that and it goes in, I'll loose my job and my licence. If I don't sign it all you can do is take my job, and I'll always get another one!'
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The responsibilities of the Certifying engineer are enshrined in law, whereas those of the engineering manager are normally only laid down by his senior managers - who are being leant on by the beancounters.
No manager would admit to the CAA/FAA/DGAC or whoever that he would pressurise a certifying engineer to let a suspect aircraft go, but in private it's a different situation.
You are entitled to be accompanied by a colleague if a manager wants to see you, so do it. If you can bring in the Quality manager, then that's even better. Like the others on this thread have stated, they can't take your ticket - but the authorities can!
When it's 3am on a rainswept ramp, it's your decision, and no-one else's. Do what is required for safe operation, and beat off the flak next day.
No manager would admit to the CAA/FAA/DGAC or whoever that he would pressurise a certifying engineer to let a suspect aircraft go, but in private it's a different situation.
You are entitled to be accompanied by a colleague if a manager wants to see you, so do it. If you can bring in the Quality manager, then that's even better. Like the others on this thread have stated, they can't take your ticket - but the authorities can!
When it's 3am on a rainswept ramp, it's your decision, and no-one else's. Do what is required for safe operation, and beat off the flak next day.
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An easy answer if getting pressurised to sign anything you are not happy with by some overbearing manage muppet is to say
"Heres the book mate, you want it signed then you and you alone sign it"
One of two reactions will develop.
1) If he can sign it (Licensed and approved) then be it on his head and what you do then is up to you. (A quick call to QA maybe)
or
2) If he cant sign it (unlicensed or approved) then tell him to "****** off" as you will only sign it when you are satisfied that all is complete and SAFE.
If he is pressurising you to sign the box, then one could deduce that he obviously can't in which case #2 applies.
It is your licence and your livelyhood.He has no rights to ask you to place these on the line just so he can appease whoever is pressurising him. You never know he might learn a thing or two as well.
Try it, I have and it works
"Heres the book mate, you want it signed then you and you alone sign it"
One of two reactions will develop.
1) If he can sign it (Licensed and approved) then be it on his head and what you do then is up to you. (A quick call to QA maybe)
or
2) If he cant sign it (unlicensed or approved) then tell him to "****** off" as you will only sign it when you are satisfied that all is complete and SAFE.
If he is pressurising you to sign the box, then one could deduce that he obviously can't in which case #2 applies.
It is your licence and your livelyhood.He has no rights to ask you to place these on the line just so he can appease whoever is pressurising him. You never know he might learn a thing or two as well.
Try it, I have and it works
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Been there, done that....
Its worth remembering that the majority of engineering managers were once Licensed Aircraft Engineers and many still hold licences, although the ratings may have long expired. To suggest as 'Nopax,thanx' does that managers face no legal penalties in the event of an accident is to say the least, ignorant: Managers face even greater accountability in this respect than do the licence holders.
'mono' gets it right when he says it is managements' job to apply pressure - thats how they find out if there is a real problem or not. I've refused to release an aircraft on several occasions and, faced with a lounge full of irate passengers, its only natural for the boss to apply pressure to test the situation. He could do no less. When I refused to budge though, there were never any consequences - unless you count increased respect of course.
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Through difficulties to the cinema
'mono' gets it right when he says it is managements' job to apply pressure - thats how they find out if there is a real problem or not. I've refused to release an aircraft on several occasions and, faced with a lounge full of irate passengers, its only natural for the boss to apply pressure to test the situation. He could do no less. When I refused to budge though, there were never any consequences - unless you count increased respect of course.
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Through difficulties to the cinema
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Now then Blacksheep, I didn't say that.....of course I know that many Engineering Managers were once or are still licence holders. My point was that it's the Certifying engineer's decision if the aircraft gets signed off or not, and that it will always be his legal obligation. That's where the sharp end is, and I'm happy for you that you have an understanding management. Naturally a manager would be hauled over the coals if there were an accident or incident - but then again, the entire engineering department would be under scrutiny.
But no-one can deny that there will be a continuing effort by certain types within management to let the ship go rather than lose a revenue trip - the further away from the floor the worse it gets, simply because accountants and senior managers are not engineers and don't see it from the engineers' point of view.
I hope that clears up your understanding of my standpoint. I'm not licensed, but have been exclusively in aircraft engineering since 1975 - maybe not as long as yourself, but long enough for me!
I'm on your side really.....!
But no-one can deny that there will be a continuing effort by certain types within management to let the ship go rather than lose a revenue trip - the further away from the floor the worse it gets, simply because accountants and senior managers are not engineers and don't see it from the engineers' point of view.
I hope that clears up your understanding of my standpoint. I'm not licensed, but have been exclusively in aircraft engineering since 1975 - maybe not as long as yourself, but long enough for me!
I'm on your side really.....!
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Lets all get a laugh at what happened to me. Turned up as hangar Foreman and got told to sign for a wheel change that was finished on nights. Asked to look at A/C and was told it
had taken off on a service. When refusing to sign was told I hope I don't have to go to the Manager about this Quess who was telling me this the QA manager. Left airline soon after.
had taken off on a service. When refusing to sign was told I hope I don't have to go to the Manager about this Quess who was telling me this the QA manager. Left airline soon after.
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I've been there - you've got to stand firm. If, as a result of continued pressure, from a variety of sources, you eventually give in, they'll wonder why you resisted in the first place.
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as experienced certifying personnel, we know what is go and what is no go. in real life, (forget what regulatory / qa insist) aircraft may not be 100% strict to mel, amm.... everyone of us have our own set of go/no go gage. some people put that at 95% and some people put thing at 85%. it is our own judgement how to navigate through this difference between real life and book rules. this may depend on how well we understand individual systems. if u don't feel comfortable in signing something, don't sign.
commercial pressure - our job is to make aircraft safe for travel. having 400 people eagering waiting at the gate because of a delay won't make u feel comfortable neither. if thing is acceptable, why don't let all people happy making their trip on time. of course the right level of safety should never be compromised.
i'm not management and will never be.
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MY COMPANYS FAVORITE IS TO PRESENT YOU WITH THE SMI SIGN OFF WITH ONLY A FEW HOURS BEFORE ETD. NO WAY YOU HAVE TIME TO CHECK THE PACK (WE ARE TALKING C CHECKS HERE), AND WHEN YOU REFUSE YOU GET THE "TROUBLEMAKER" LABEL, AND THEY JUST FIND SOMEBODY ELSE WHO ISN'T AS STRONG TO SIGN IT.
NOTE: AND QUALITY SAY IT ISN'T THEIR PROBLEM!
STAND BY YOUR DECISION THOUGH, WOULD RATHER BE A TROUBLEMAKER ( I HAVE BEEN CALLED WORSE) THAN AN IDIOT - I LEAVE THAT JOB TO THE MANAGEMENT
NOTE: AND QUALITY SAY IT ISN'T THEIR PROBLEM!
STAND BY YOUR DECISION THOUGH, WOULD RATHER BE A TROUBLEMAKER ( I HAVE BEEN CALLED WORSE) THAN AN IDIOT - I LEAVE THAT JOB TO THE MANAGEMENT
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I've worked for some good companys, and I've worked for some bad companys. I worked for good guys in bad companys and I've worked for bad guys in good companys. Bottom line is it is my licence and integrity that I have to answer to. It could be my family in that a/c or under that a/c when it flies. Does that mean I won't let it go with some minor cosmetic problem? of course not. I won't let it go if there is a serious problem, but I've let it go with a leak that is way out of limits, but gave a heads up to the guy at the next base about it. Is that legal? Not really, but is it safe? Of course it is, or I wouldn't have let it go. I've been called a lot of things in my career, but I have the respect of my fellow coworkers, and my management that I am knowledgeable about what I do. If it is broke I won't let it go, and my manager won't push me to sign the release. He will ask about the snag, the steps I've taken, he will give me advice or other options, but until I'm happy that things are good, I don't sign. I have been talked into signing things, only because as a collective we have come up with a solution that will make the a/c servicable, may not mean that it is exactly as per mm, but safe and servicable just the same. Bottom line is that a/c pays my salary, and i can't get paid if it doesn't fly, nor do i get paid if it crashes. Besides you can't spend your salary in jail. Think smart, think safe.
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The bottom line is is once YOU have signed/stamped
for the work carried out it is YOU that will carry the can for
when it goes wrong. The management will be nowhere to be
seen don't compromise your own standards by being pressurised
by these muppets. In my experience they are mostly spinless
individuals who's main concern is lining there own pockets at
the expense of everyone else. YOU are the certifier what you
say goes as regard to certification of the a/c please don't become the fallguy.
for the work carried out it is YOU that will carry the can for
when it goes wrong. The management will be nowhere to be
seen don't compromise your own standards by being pressurised
by these muppets. In my experience they are mostly spinless
individuals who's main concern is lining there own pockets at
the expense of everyone else. YOU are the certifier what you
say goes as regard to certification of the a/c please don't become the fallguy.
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rwm,
Agree 100% with what you say,a perfectly safe and competent attitude to have.
I must say that with nearly 18 yrs under my belt,I have never been pressured into signing for anything I'm not happy with.I have no problems with grounding an aircraft and have done so on many occasions but I would not ground it strictly on the basis that it's out of limits.It depends on by how much and what the problem is.
Rightly or wrongly this is the real world.
Agree 100% with what you say,a perfectly safe and competent attitude to have.
I must say that with nearly 18 yrs under my belt,I have never been pressured into signing for anything I'm not happy with.I have no problems with grounding an aircraft and have done so on many occasions but I would not ground it strictly on the basis that it's out of limits.It depends on by how much and what the problem is.
Rightly or wrongly this is the real world.
Last edited by eng123; 29th Aug 2003 at 17:03.
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In case my last statement was taken out of text let me clarify the incidence "An MEL (3 day limit)had previously been applied and on the morning of the forth day was pressured into signing the release.My dummy spit was because we had the spares to rectify the prob but the A/C had overnighted in a minor base (bad planning ! )and when it arrived I was expected to just sign it off and allow the MEL to go on. Was I being pedantic or just covering myself.Eventual outcome was find another to sign !!
Strikes me Eng123 you are either incredibly lucky or are very good at blocking out the pressure. Whilst I hope that I've never actually done it where safety was an issue, being pressured to sign things off I'm not entirely happy with is almost a weekly problem for me.
Could be worse I suppose because I mostly deal with privately owned aeroplanes and private owners want their pride and joy in the air to an extent that wage-slave manager's don't necessarily.
G
Could be worse I suppose because I mostly deal with privately owned aeroplanes and private owners want their pride and joy in the air to an extent that wage-slave manager's don't necessarily.
G
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Genghis,
I can honestly say that I haven't ever been pressured to sign.Maybe I am very lucky.I have certainly backed down and changed my mind having consulted with colleages but I've never had a manager tell me to sign off a defect that is clearly outside the MEL and dangerous. Maybe that is a significant difference between the standards of general aviation compared to commercial operations?
fruitloop,
In that situation I would certainly have refused to release the aircraft with an MEL over-run especially if the spares were available.They would have to have got me a concession in order for me to do that but once again,I have never been unfortunate enough to work for a company that has tried it on like that.
I can honestly say that I haven't ever been pressured to sign.Maybe I am very lucky.I have certainly backed down and changed my mind having consulted with colleages but I've never had a manager tell me to sign off a defect that is clearly outside the MEL and dangerous. Maybe that is a significant difference between the standards of general aviation compared to commercial operations?
fruitloop,
In that situation I would certainly have refused to release the aircraft with an MEL over-run especially if the spares were available.They would have to have got me a concession in order for me to do that but once again,I have never been unfortunate enough to work for a company that has tried it on like that.
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My current emplolyer and one of my other previous employers have very strict rules on MEL and minor defect logs. So no matter how minor the problem is, my hands are tied if an MEL goes beyond the date. But I think I can extend an MEL once, and a minor defect twice so long as there are parts demanded. If it goes beyond that, then the A/C is AOG where ever it is.