Too Old for a Career in Av. Eng.?
Thread Starter
Too Old for a Career in Av. Eng.?
Apologies for yet another career enquiry post but I am in need of advice lest I waste my time.
At the grand old age of 44 do you think its too late for me to pursue a new career in aero engineering in whatever humble capacity?
I've signed up for an HNC in Aircraft Engineering at Perth College (Scotland) with possible advancement onto degree level.
I'm not expecting to be designing the next SST or anything spectacular, just I need assurance that I'd have a reasonable chance of securing a job in line servicing or whatever.
Not sure whether my age would put off employers from investing in me.
I've always been aviation daft but basically poor health has prevented me hitherto. Obviously I wouldn't be advertising the fact.
Many thanks in advance
At the grand old age of 44 do you think its too late for me to pursue a new career in aero engineering in whatever humble capacity?
I've signed up for an HNC in Aircraft Engineering at Perth College (Scotland) with possible advancement onto degree level.
I'm not expecting to be designing the next SST or anything spectacular, just I need assurance that I'd have a reasonable chance of securing a job in line servicing or whatever.
Not sure whether my age would put off employers from investing in me.
I've always been aviation daft but basically poor health has prevented me hitherto. Obviously I wouldn't be advertising the fact.
Many thanks in advance
No it's not.
Of course your success will depend on how committed and tenacious you are, as no doubt there will be some age discrimination.
However this sort of discrimination is slowly surprisingly becoming less of an issue.
I made the move in my late 30's from a career in aviation (737 first officer) to a career in Software (although I did have a rusty old related Degree) and found age not to be a real show stopper issue.
Good luck.
Of course your success will depend on how committed and tenacious you are, as no doubt there will be some age discrimination.
However this sort of discrimination is slowly surprisingly becoming less of an issue.
I made the move in my late 30's from a career in aviation (737 first officer) to a career in Software (although I did have a rusty old related Degree) and found age not to be a real show stopper issue.
Good luck.
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To repeat what 'flash8' has said, no it's not. you don't say whether you're aiming at aircraft maintenance engineering or aeronautical engineering but I would add one point and it is with your statement "....with possible advancement onto degree level...." I would strongly encourage you to go for a degree. Modern aircraft are becoming more and more sophisticated to such an extent that potential employers are now starting to look for candidates with degrees in addition to technical qualifications. Go for it.
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" I'm not expecting to be designing the next SST or anything spectacular, just I need assurance that I'd have a reasonable chance of securing a job in line servicing or whatever.
Not sure whether my age would put off employers from investing in me.
I've always been aviation daft but basically poor health has prevented me hitherto. Obviously I wouldn't be advertising the fact.
With the best will in the world and I am not being disparaging here, you don't have a cat in hells chance of getting a job in Line maintenance with your intended qualification. That, and the fact you have, as you say, poor health would also negate employment.
Line engineering does require you to be in generally good health and with a reasonable level of physical fitness...at least when you start....thereafter I've met numerous people whose health / fitness deteriorated with the working conditions being a causal factor...and, in some cases, lifestyle contributing as well.
You say you are now 44....if, you do decide to subsequently get the Degree, how old will you be then ?....and, apart from your age which, in theory shouldn't be a barrier in the UK but we all know it is because whilst an organisation may claim not to have age restrictions when recruiting, what they generally do is get a recruitment agency to source candidates and these human parasites have no qualms at all about being ageist.
Then there's the far from inconsequential matter of experience which, again, you simply won't have.
Not declaring any health issues would almost certainly come back to bite you as an organisation could rightfully claim you made a false declaration on application and thereafter it would be goodbye.
As for manufacturing, others on here are better qualified to respond in this area.
Frankly, and I say this sympathetically, I wouldn't waste your time and money on gaining the qualification.
What I would suggest however, is, if you want to enjoy and participate in aviation, you do so as a hobby....say gliding or micro-lighting ( three axis form....at least you have a cockpit and a relative degree of comfort here ) and in both forms you will get to do some aspects of engineering.
Not sure whether my age would put off employers from investing in me.
I've always been aviation daft but basically poor health has prevented me hitherto. Obviously I wouldn't be advertising the fact.
With the best will in the world and I am not being disparaging here, you don't have a cat in hells chance of getting a job in Line maintenance with your intended qualification. That, and the fact you have, as you say, poor health would also negate employment.
Line engineering does require you to be in generally good health and with a reasonable level of physical fitness...at least when you start....thereafter I've met numerous people whose health / fitness deteriorated with the working conditions being a causal factor...and, in some cases, lifestyle contributing as well.
You say you are now 44....if, you do decide to subsequently get the Degree, how old will you be then ?....and, apart from your age which, in theory shouldn't be a barrier in the UK but we all know it is because whilst an organisation may claim not to have age restrictions when recruiting, what they generally do is get a recruitment agency to source candidates and these human parasites have no qualms at all about being ageist.
Then there's the far from inconsequential matter of experience which, again, you simply won't have.
Not declaring any health issues would almost certainly come back to bite you as an organisation could rightfully claim you made a false declaration on application and thereafter it would be goodbye.
As for manufacturing, others on here are better qualified to respond in this area.
Frankly, and I say this sympathetically, I wouldn't waste your time and money on gaining the qualification.
What I would suggest however, is, if you want to enjoy and participate in aviation, you do so as a hobby....say gliding or micro-lighting ( three axis form....at least you have a cockpit and a relative degree of comfort here ) and in both forms you will get to do some aspects of engineering.
As you admit you have health problems I would certainly not consider Line Maintenance. Working 12 hour night shifts requires stamina and decent fitness levels (as well as an understanding family!)
Although your age shouldn't be a barrier to entry, in reality it probably will be if you are considering a career as a licensed engineer. To qualify you are looking at five years of hands on experience plus a lot of studying and exams. You may be able to shorten that slightly by attending a JAR147 training facility but no operator is going to give you full certification privileges until you have a decent amount of experience with "live" aircraft. You will also need to study further for type ratings before gaining any full type approval.
Its a long slog and starting from scratch at your age is something I've never seen in my 30+ year career. If you do choose the Degree route, you may get an office job in a Tech Services, Design or Planning role but opportunities are fairly limited. Either way, a Degree is not the way to go if you are considering the Licenced Engineer role.
Although your age shouldn't be a barrier to entry, in reality it probably will be if you are considering a career as a licensed engineer. To qualify you are looking at five years of hands on experience plus a lot of studying and exams. You may be able to shorten that slightly by attending a JAR147 training facility but no operator is going to give you full certification privileges until you have a decent amount of experience with "live" aircraft. You will also need to study further for type ratings before gaining any full type approval.
Its a long slog and starting from scratch at your age is something I've never seen in my 30+ year career. If you do choose the Degree route, you may get an office job in a Tech Services, Design or Planning role but opportunities are fairly limited. Either way, a Degree is not the way to go if you are considering the Licenced Engineer role.
Couchycool - I think that you need to get your head around what sort of engineering interests you.
The career route and qualifications into design, and the same for maintenance, or to a large extent the same into building new aircraft and equipment, are three quite different routes.
The fellows above are right - line maintenance is pretty tough on the system, and possibly if you've not had a prior life in something physically similar (and intellectually, these chaps use their brains as much as their hands, however much they like to deny it) you'll find changing from a "simpler" lifestyle into that sort of job pretty difficult. I'm not saying you can't, just that it'll be difficult.
If you want to go into the design side, then HNC/degree is the obvious starting route. You then, ideally with an MEng, can either go into one of the companies - most usually through a graduate training scheme (although they'll be a little surprised at applicants in their 40s and that may cause you problems), or do another year somewhere like Cranfield to do a specialist MSc and then slot more quickly into the working environment.
Another route is into the research side (I made this change mid-career from originally working on the design and certification side) by doing a PhD and then looking towards postdoc or lecturer level jobs in universities. Age will probably count least against you here, as universities generally couldn't give a stuff about age, sex, nationality, ethnicity, health - in fact anything but your academic ability. I'd love to say that the rest of industry was like that too, but frankly it's not.
If you have a fascination with aeronautical engineering, and a history of ill health, then certainly the degree rather than maintenance route is likely to favour you more.
Do you have a " a reasonable chance of securing a job" ? Hard to say - generally speaking, in the graduate side, the issue for everybody is getting their first proper graduate job, as employers value experience much more than the academic qualifications alone. Once you are around CEng or postdoc level (depending upon route) then there's a growing shortage of people, so you're unlikely to every be unemployed for long.
G
The career route and qualifications into design, and the same for maintenance, or to a large extent the same into building new aircraft and equipment, are three quite different routes.
The fellows above are right - line maintenance is pretty tough on the system, and possibly if you've not had a prior life in something physically similar (and intellectually, these chaps use their brains as much as their hands, however much they like to deny it) you'll find changing from a "simpler" lifestyle into that sort of job pretty difficult. I'm not saying you can't, just that it'll be difficult.
If you want to go into the design side, then HNC/degree is the obvious starting route. You then, ideally with an MEng, can either go into one of the companies - most usually through a graduate training scheme (although they'll be a little surprised at applicants in their 40s and that may cause you problems), or do another year somewhere like Cranfield to do a specialist MSc and then slot more quickly into the working environment.
Another route is into the research side (I made this change mid-career from originally working on the design and certification side) by doing a PhD and then looking towards postdoc or lecturer level jobs in universities. Age will probably count least against you here, as universities generally couldn't give a stuff about age, sex, nationality, ethnicity, health - in fact anything but your academic ability. I'd love to say that the rest of industry was like that too, but frankly it's not.
If you have a fascination with aeronautical engineering, and a history of ill health, then certainly the degree rather than maintenance route is likely to favour you more.
Do you have a " a reasonable chance of securing a job" ? Hard to say - generally speaking, in the graduate side, the issue for everybody is getting their first proper graduate job, as employers value experience much more than the academic qualifications alone. Once you are around CEng or postdoc level (depending upon route) then there's a growing shortage of people, so you're unlikely to every be unemployed for long.
G
Thread Starter
I'm very much obliged to all the above respondants for their advice.
Perhaps I rather overstated the health issue, it basically hasnt been a problem in many years, I just wanted to elucidate why I've left it so late. I actually wanted to be aircrew originally.
Certainly I have done some very tough physical jobs in recent years, my present one is 12 hour nightshifts constantly on my feet.
I suppose my real query is just exactly what are the jobs which are out there?
As I said before, I'm not looking to change the world, I just want to get involved jobswise in whatever humble capacity.
Like the guys who do the turnarounds at your average airport, what quals./experience does one need for that?
And aircraft refueller, how does one get that job?
I'll probaby do the HNC out of interest anyway and just take it from there. Unless you have any better ideas.
Thanks again
Cooch
Perhaps I rather overstated the health issue, it basically hasnt been a problem in many years, I just wanted to elucidate why I've left it so late. I actually wanted to be aircrew originally.
Certainly I have done some very tough physical jobs in recent years, my present one is 12 hour nightshifts constantly on my feet.
I suppose my real query is just exactly what are the jobs which are out there?
As I said before, I'm not looking to change the world, I just want to get involved jobswise in whatever humble capacity.
Like the guys who do the turnarounds at your average airport, what quals./experience does one need for that?
And aircraft refueller, how does one get that job?
I'll probaby do the HNC out of interest anyway and just take it from there. Unless you have any better ideas.
Thanks again
Cooch
Last edited by Coochycool; 11th Aug 2014 at 19:39.
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Like the guys who do the turnarounds at your average airport, what quals./experience does one need for that?
And aircraft refueller, how does one get that job
Lets clarify your first query. " the average airport"....give the range from say LHR to Wick, there's really no such thing as a "average" airport.
As for the "guys doing the turnarounds", well that depends entirely on the operator. The crew may well do their own transit checks but with handlers doing the chocks, ground power, start up and see -off / headset for example.
However, a Line engineer may also be present with some operators and if you think that Line engineering is simply about pitching up to an aircraft, doing a walk round, then signing the Tech Log.....with a free coffee and sandwich from the Cabin Crew in the process, I have some bad news for you.
You have, I take it, seen those same guys at say, 03.30 hrs, in the middle of January in inclement weather working on the aircraft ?....the short answer is clearly not.
Quals ?.....formal and recognised engineering training, a Licence and...several years experience.
As for the refuellers, lets start with an HGV licence, an ADR qualification thereafter ( plus a few others ) and, again, experience.
To be honest, I think you are letting your heart rule your head here and I think it's safe to say you would never get a job as a Line Engineer. I also feel you are not really prepared to listen to advice until you get the answer you want to hear.
Sorry if this sounds rather blunt, but, there's no other way of answering your questions and, along with others who have responded, offering you realistic advice.
And aircraft refueller, how does one get that job
Lets clarify your first query. " the average airport"....give the range from say LHR to Wick, there's really no such thing as a "average" airport.
As for the "guys doing the turnarounds", well that depends entirely on the operator. The crew may well do their own transit checks but with handlers doing the chocks, ground power, start up and see -off / headset for example.
However, a Line engineer may also be present with some operators and if you think that Line engineering is simply about pitching up to an aircraft, doing a walk round, then signing the Tech Log.....with a free coffee and sandwich from the Cabin Crew in the process, I have some bad news for you.
You have, I take it, seen those same guys at say, 03.30 hrs, in the middle of January in inclement weather working on the aircraft ?....the short answer is clearly not.
Quals ?.....formal and recognised engineering training, a Licence and...several years experience.
As for the refuellers, lets start with an HGV licence, an ADR qualification thereafter ( plus a few others ) and, again, experience.
To be honest, I think you are letting your heart rule your head here and I think it's safe to say you would never get a job as a Line Engineer. I also feel you are not really prepared to listen to advice until you get the answer you want to hear.
Sorry if this sounds rather blunt, but, there's no other way of answering your questions and, along with others who have responded, offering you realistic advice.
Ref the "guys doing the turnarounds".....as has been mentioned these may be carried out by licensed engineers or pilots.
However, a licensed engineer will get involved if there are incoming defects on an aircraft which cannot be deferred. Decisions have to made regarding the airworthiness of an aircraft and rectification often takes place in a pressurised environment (particularly now with the delayed flight compensation culture!
)
This is not a career you can amble into. It takes, a lot of training, studying & exams just to get the basic license and plenty more of the same (plus heaps of experience) to become trusted by a company to hold an approval.
It’s possible you could obtain a position as an unlicensed Mech in a hangar environment after your HNC (which is always good place to learn the basic trade) However, the money won't be great and it will depend on your location and ability to travel. If that’s what you choose to do, you'll be able to gain the all-important experience and decide if the career is for you.
However, a licensed engineer will get involved if there are incoming defects on an aircraft which cannot be deferred. Decisions have to made regarding the airworthiness of an aircraft and rectification often takes place in a pressurised environment (particularly now with the delayed flight compensation culture!
)This is not a career you can amble into. It takes, a lot of training, studying & exams just to get the basic license and plenty more of the same (plus heaps of experience) to become trusted by a company to hold an approval.
It’s possible you could obtain a position as an unlicensed Mech in a hangar environment after your HNC (which is always good place to learn the basic trade) However, the money won't be great and it will depend on your location and ability to travel. If that’s what you choose to do, you'll be able to gain the all-important experience and decide if the career is for you.
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Too old?!
Trust me, when you get to 70 you'll be wondering why you even asked the question.
I'm on my 3rd career since I was 40 well over 30 years ago, and they have all been great fun, completely different, and fairly profitable, in spite of all being loosely aviation-related apart from one when I tried to break out of aviation and managed a fleet of 12 charter yachts for 5 years. (Hugely enjoyable, but not profitable so I sighed and went back to aviation.)
If you want to do it, you sprog, go for it. You have at least 30 years useful life left. I'll tell you in 10 years time if that should be "at least 40 years left".
Ah yes, the "poor health" problem. How poor? Does it prevent you studying and working? If not, it's not an issue. If it does, then ignore the advice above.
Trust me, when you get to 70 you'll be wondering why you even asked the question.
I'm on my 3rd career since I was 40 well over 30 years ago, and they have all been great fun, completely different, and fairly profitable, in spite of all being loosely aviation-related apart from one when I tried to break out of aviation and managed a fleet of 12 charter yachts for 5 years. (Hugely enjoyable, but not profitable so I sighed and went back to aviation.)
If you want to do it, you sprog, go for it. You have at least 30 years useful life left. I'll tell you in 10 years time if that should be "at least 40 years left".
Ah yes, the "poor health" problem. How poor? Does it prevent you studying and working? If not, it's not an issue. If it does, then ignore the advice above.
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Couple of things to consider.
If you dream of an employees career in aviation and you are now 44, it is simple - your chances are almost nothing. The only way you get a job is by knowing somebody who gives it to you. The normal labor market, applications and initiative letters won't bring you anywhere, as companies tend to suspend investing in you at about 45. Simple stupid, but that is the way HR departments work nowadays.
If you consider being selfemployed or built a business and give a **** for HR departments, you could do and do good for the next 20, 30 years. You not only have to own your career path, but have to care for further education as well. Let me assure you - this is the better way to have fun, and at that age, probably the only one.
If you dream of an employees career in aviation and you are now 44, it is simple - your chances are almost nothing. The only way you get a job is by knowing somebody who gives it to you. The normal labor market, applications and initiative letters won't bring you anywhere, as companies tend to suspend investing in you at about 45. Simple stupid, but that is the way HR departments work nowadays.
If you consider being selfemployed or built a business and give a **** for HR departments, you could do and do good for the next 20, 30 years. You not only have to own your career path, but have to care for further education as well. Let me assure you - this is the better way to have fun, and at that age, probably the only one.
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Yes, I should have added that after 40 you must be your own employer. But that's how you start a new career.
Whether you do that by starting a business or simply free-lancing is another matter.
But you need to have a skill to sell to freelance. And the ability to do what you asked to do politely and efficiently, and not to talk about your clients and/or their affairs.
Whether you do that by starting a business or simply free-lancing is another matter.
But you need to have a skill to sell to freelance. And the ability to do what you asked to do politely and efficiently, and not to talk about your clients and/or their affairs.
The "need" to be self employed only occurs in some sectors of the industry, not all.
The absolute need however, which we've all been skirting around but not stating explicitly is to really want to be there, or are en-route to what they really want to do. It really doesn't matter what job you want in aviation - maintenance engineer, design engineer, airline pilot, flying instructor, researcher - you have to really want that job and have pushed hard for it.
Pretty much any worthwhile job in aviation is filled by somebody who really wanted to be there, and has pushed for years to get to that position. There are few, if any, worthwhile jobs in this game filled by people who just fancied the job, or drifted into it.
Age is much less relevant, than how much you want the job and how hard you're prepared to work for it. There probably aren't any people posting advice on this thread who have done less than 4 years study and training since school to get where they are now, and some of us have passed 10. The only thing that'll get you through all that is really wanting to be at end point that all that will give you.
G
The absolute need however, which we've all been skirting around but not stating explicitly is to really want to be there, or are en-route to what they really want to do. It really doesn't matter what job you want in aviation - maintenance engineer, design engineer, airline pilot, flying instructor, researcher - you have to really want that job and have pushed hard for it.
Pretty much any worthwhile job in aviation is filled by somebody who really wanted to be there, and has pushed for years to get to that position. There are few, if any, worthwhile jobs in this game filled by people who just fancied the job, or drifted into it.
Age is much less relevant, than how much you want the job and how hard you're prepared to work for it. There probably aren't any people posting advice on this thread who have done less than 4 years study and training since school to get where they are now, and some of us have passed 10. The only thing that'll get you through all that is really wanting to be at end point that all that will give you.
G
Thread Starter
Well the "dont have a cat in hells chance" doesnt surprise me in the slightest.
Its the story of my life.
But I'll try anyway.
Its either that or I do some dead end job for money I dont need.
Or study something else equally dead end.
But who knows, maybe MAF might appreciate some free labour if nothing else.
Thanks once again to all.
Cooch
Its the story of my life.
But I'll try anyway.
Its either that or I do some dead end job for money I dont need.
Or study something else equally dead end.
But who knows, maybe MAF might appreciate some free labour if nothing else.
Thanks once again to all.
Cooch
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Well the "dont have a cat in hells chance" doesnt surprise me in the slightest.
Its the story of my life.
But I'll try anyway.
Its either that or I do some dead end job for money I dont need.
Or study something else equally dead end
I think you've just revealed rather more about yourself than you intended.
You mentioned Line engineering in your first post and, poor health along with going for a qualification that would be of no use to you in that environment.
I spent about 25 years in Line engineering, and, luckily, survived with my health intact. I have though, as I am sure others have, met many former Line engineers whose health deteriorated over time and, when they retired, simply withered away.
You are 44 now....with no experience or background....be realistic therefore, do you really think you would get into any position on the Line ?
The Bold is rather telling as well.....are you seriously trying to say you don't actually need money to live as you are self-sufficient ?....or, possibly, you just live a minimalist lifestyle ?....not that either matters because, as I will reiterate, your heart appears to be ruling your head here....and if you really believe in the "glamour of aviation" then, possibly it's best if you stick to the sector as a hobby....it doesn't matter if it's maintenance or manufacturing, the work is always intense.
You have asked for advice and you have had a variety of responses, all of which have offered you an insight as to what, realistically, you could hope to achieve.
Do, please, read what people have been saying....
Its the story of my life.
But I'll try anyway.
Its either that or I do some dead end job for money I dont need.
Or study something else equally dead end
I think you've just revealed rather more about yourself than you intended.
You mentioned Line engineering in your first post and, poor health along with going for a qualification that would be of no use to you in that environment.
I spent about 25 years in Line engineering, and, luckily, survived with my health intact. I have though, as I am sure others have, met many former Line engineers whose health deteriorated over time and, when they retired, simply withered away.
You are 44 now....with no experience or background....be realistic therefore, do you really think you would get into any position on the Line ?
The Bold is rather telling as well.....are you seriously trying to say you don't actually need money to live as you are self-sufficient ?....or, possibly, you just live a minimalist lifestyle ?....not that either matters because, as I will reiterate, your heart appears to be ruling your head here....and if you really believe in the "glamour of aviation" then, possibly it's best if you stick to the sector as a hobby....it doesn't matter if it's maintenance or manufacturing, the work is always intense.
You have asked for advice and you have had a variety of responses, all of which have offered you an insight as to what, realistically, you could hope to achieve.
Do, please, read what people have been saying....
Thread Starter
Well I'm not sure which nerve I touched Krystal but perhaps the 25 tough years in Line Servicing has something to do with it. Yes I understand pride. And yes I understand work can be tough.
But let me state here unequivocally that yes I already got the message. I thank you for it. I hereby accept that I wont get anywhere in this vain. I came here to duly establish that, and now its done.
But I'll probably do the degree anyway just out of personal interest.
Because yes I am self sufficient and don't have a great need for money. Poor health and hard work in the past means I don't have a wife and kids or much else to pay for.
Speaking of tough jobs I did 10 years as a postman. Remarkably well paid if you were happy to do overtime. And a second outdoor job on top. Never met anyone else who worked as hard as that. Despite the Scottish winters in recent years where even the emergency services struggled to operate. So I bought and paid for my house in 2.5 years.
And no I'm not reluctant to reveal any of it, it is all intentional.
I have every respect for what you do, maybe you can respect me too for where I find myself
But let me state here unequivocally that yes I already got the message. I thank you for it. I hereby accept that I wont get anywhere in this vain. I came here to duly establish that, and now its done.
But I'll probably do the degree anyway just out of personal interest.
Because yes I am self sufficient and don't have a great need for money. Poor health and hard work in the past means I don't have a wife and kids or much else to pay for.
Speaking of tough jobs I did 10 years as a postman. Remarkably well paid if you were happy to do overtime. And a second outdoor job on top. Never met anyone else who worked as hard as that. Despite the Scottish winters in recent years where even the emergency services struggled to operate. So I bought and paid for my house in 2.5 years.
And no I'm not reluctant to reveal any of it, it is all intentional.
I have every respect for what you do, maybe you can respect me too for where I find myself
Last edited by Coochycool; 14th Aug 2014 at 11:43.
So I bought and paid for my house in 2.5 years.
