Human Factors
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: West Country
Posts: 1,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Human Factors
As an engineer with 25 years experience in aircraft maintenance am I the only one who is getting more concerned over the increasing presures on maintenance staff to work under stress and while fatigued.
I realise that there have always been pressures on maintenance to get the aircraft out, but in the last few years it seems that it is getting worse. The latest event that has concerned me, is the idea by the management that it is OK for an engineer to work 7 continuous 8 hour shifts and spend 5 hours a day travelling to/from work. Although I personally do not do this shift yet, if I did I don't think that I would have any confidence in my ability to do the job safely with that amount of fatigue. I am not convinced that I would like to fly on any aircraft that is maintained by staff who are that stressed.
It seems that the latest crop of senior management are graduates from universities with no actual experience of aircraft maintenance and are unaware of the difference between working on aircraft and flying a desk all day.
I know that the CAA and CHIRP are looking into the accidents caused by stressed/fatigued staff but if the companies don't take the reccomendations on board then they are wasting their time.
Anyone got any comments?
I realise that there have always been pressures on maintenance to get the aircraft out, but in the last few years it seems that it is getting worse. The latest event that has concerned me, is the idea by the management that it is OK for an engineer to work 7 continuous 8 hour shifts and spend 5 hours a day travelling to/from work. Although I personally do not do this shift yet, if I did I don't think that I would have any confidence in my ability to do the job safely with that amount of fatigue. I am not convinced that I would like to fly on any aircraft that is maintained by staff who are that stressed.
It seems that the latest crop of senior management are graduates from universities with no actual experience of aircraft maintenance and are unaware of the difference between working on aircraft and flying a desk all day.
I know that the CAA and CHIRP are looking into the accidents caused by stressed/fatigued staff but if the companies don't take the reccomendations on board then they are wasting their time.
Anyone got any comments?
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Down South
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Jet.
In the glamourous world of ATC Engineering at the shiney new center in Swanwick we operational Engineers work a peach of a shift pattern. Goes something like this....
NN-LLEERRR
(without trying to sound daft a N is a Night, a - is a sleep dat, a L is a Late and an E is an early. sorry if that was obvious but I'm tired...)
Now the bitch of this is after your 2 night shifts you have to wait about 5 days until you can get a good night's sleep. Also in there we have an Early to Late transition - leave work at about 10pm and have to be at work at 7am the next morning. After working a few of these cycles in a row your drained. I'd be very worried about having to make a safety critical choice on my last Early. Its a female dog to say the least. But we have to work it and get paid peanuts for the extra stress it puts on both social lives and family lives.
I know where your coming from. Do you chaps work shifts, or days or what? I'm interested as I'm trying to put together some sort of evidence, along woth my other colleagues into a good shift pattern that will work and also not make you more tired than going 10 rounds with Mike Tyson. It sounds like what you work is to be avoided....
In the glamourous world of ATC Engineering at the shiney new center in Swanwick we operational Engineers work a peach of a shift pattern. Goes something like this....
NN-LLEERRR
(without trying to sound daft a N is a Night, a - is a sleep dat, a L is a Late and an E is an early. sorry if that was obvious but I'm tired...)
Now the bitch of this is after your 2 night shifts you have to wait about 5 days until you can get a good night's sleep. Also in there we have an Early to Late transition - leave work at about 10pm and have to be at work at 7am the next morning. After working a few of these cycles in a row your drained. I'd be very worried about having to make a safety critical choice on my last Early. Its a female dog to say the least. But we have to work it and get paid peanuts for the extra stress it puts on both social lives and family lives.
I know where your coming from. Do you chaps work shifts, or days or what? I'm interested as I'm trying to put together some sort of evidence, along woth my other colleagues into a good shift pattern that will work and also not make you more tired than going 10 rounds with Mike Tyson. It sounds like what you work is to be avoided....
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Minneapolis, MN,USA.
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you're stuck with having to provide that kind of coverage, then it has to flow from earlys, to afternoons, to nights - then a beer break. I used to work that arse backwards shift and it was the dumbest way to spend a day I'd ever come across. As for human factors in general, its like pulling teeth to get the bean counters to accept it, especially as it only contributes difficult to quantify "soft" benefits to the bottom line. If your management views you as "labour units", the sophistication of human factors and organizational behaviour type thinking in your organization - is a long way off.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Minneapolis, MN,USA.
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you're absolutely stuck with having to provide 24/7 coverage, might I suggest that you consider the following - 2 days - 2 nights - 4 off. A four on four off 12 hour shift pattern that mitigates the misery. The 12 hours ain't that bad,especially if you're already screwed with OT,plus you cut down commuting trips so you save money on petrol. You get an evening off between days and nights for a few sherberts, and even though you're sleeping off the last night shift on your morning time, you have three and half days after that to get something done. It's the only shift I worked that made nightshift remotely tolerable.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Down South
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks tiny.
If the blitherings of "management" are to be believed there's a good chance we'll get 12 hours shifts sometime when Hell gets a but nippy, and then we'll probably work a Day, Night - sleep, Off Off pattern, which is the bee's knees. I've got some chums who work the DDNNSRRR pattern and they think it's quite good. And I also agree about the pattern being arse about face. This pattern was actually voted in by my lot a good year and a bit before I moved down south, so Think it should be swapped about.
shame no-one above gutter level listens to me and my sort....
If the blitherings of "management" are to be believed there's a good chance we'll get 12 hours shifts sometime when Hell gets a but nippy, and then we'll probably work a Day, Night - sleep, Off Off pattern, which is the bee's knees. I've got some chums who work the DDNNSRRR pattern and they think it's quite good. And I also agree about the pattern being arse about face. This pattern was actually voted in by my lot a good year and a bit before I moved down south, so Think it should be swapped about.
shame no-one above gutter level listens to me and my sort....
Join Date: May 2002
Location: between the REIL and VASI
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, since they asked.....
Greetings, the management required 24/7 but with a dedicated shift personall allowed. Strictly speaking, the night shift stayed night all the time, with maybe one or two rotating members as needed. The other shifts were the same way, once there, you worked that shift, no rotating in and out of other shifts. It worked because thats what we all wanted. granted we also worked 5 on 2 off, but then it was not all that bad, no one had both saturday and sunday off.....
it worked for us. Management picked who needed to be on each shift and let those of simular talent or skill to figure out which shift they were to work.
and yes it was aircraft maintenance.
Scrdvr
Live life with no regret.....and sleep confident.
it worked for us. Management picked who needed to be on each shift and let those of simular talent or skill to figure out which shift they were to work.
and yes it was aircraft maintenance.
Scrdvr
Live life with no regret.....and sleep confident.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: UK, not for long I hope
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi,
If you are to work 8 hrs shifts with 5 hrs driving management will say move closer!
The only shift that works for me is 4 on 4 off rotating days nights when you go from days to nights it seems like 5 days a you only start on the night of day 5 after last shift,also you get 16 days in bed at night in one go. I also did permy nights but gave it up as my wife was all for leaving as I was a real **** to live with when doing all nights.
And as a passing note most companys say 12hrs min rest between finsh and next start time!
If you are to work 8 hrs shifts with 5 hrs driving management will say move closer!
The only shift that works for me is 4 on 4 off rotating days nights when you go from days to nights it seems like 5 days a you only start on the night of day 5 after last shift,also you get 16 days in bed at night in one go. I also did permy nights but gave it up as my wife was all for leaving as I was a real **** to live with when doing all nights.
And as a passing note most companys say 12hrs min rest between finsh and next start time!
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: The party.
Posts: 316
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree.Move closer,or find somewhere to bunk for 2 Days-2 Nights and then spend the 1 and 4 off at home.
It is your choice to commute,no-one else's.
I'm lucky in a way, 9 minutes from door to door.
5 hrs - 18 minutes a day,if i practiced golf every day for that long i'd be over at St Andrews with a bit of luck this year.less chance of being a roadtoll too.
It is your choice to commute,no-one else's.
I'm lucky in a way, 9 minutes from door to door.
5 hrs - 18 minutes a day,if i practiced golf every day for that long i'd be over at St Andrews with a bit of luck this year.less chance of being a roadtoll too.
Cunning Artificer
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Age: 76
Posts: 3,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My own experience suggests that shifts seem easy enough when you're young, but they're just like cigarettes. The effects hit you later when you're older and the damage is already done. There is no doubt whatsoever that shift workers (and despite their controlled hours, pilots too) have reduced average life spans. Of my co-workers who reached retirement, not one has lasted more than five years after they retired and that doesn't consider those who died before they ever drew their pensions. Out of twenty in our section we have five over fifty. Two have had coronary bypass operations and one has intermittent claudication - none are smokers, but all were long-time shift workers. It may be true that people are living longer these days but that doesn't apply to engineering workers who are still stuck with a life expectancy of only 68 years.
There could be a number of other factors in the work conditions responsible for the reduced life spans of shift workers, particularly in the engineering world, but diurnal disturbance is the prime suspect. For example, Hospital Doctors, Nurses and Security Guards don't work with hazardous chemicals and processes yet they are equally affected. If only the unions had spent some time and money on supporting scientific investigation of the long term health effects of shift work instead of negotiating crappy shift pay agreements, we might all have been better off. As it is, I seem to have sold ten years of my life for forty quid a week shift pay back in the seventies.
24/7 working IS needed in many industries but there has to be some way of reducing damage to the health. Shift rotations must give longer rest periods between night duties so that diurnal disturbances are minimised. Perhaps longer holidays for shift workers may be required. All these will no doubt increase costs, but proper scientific investigation IS now finally taking place and I suspect that when the results are out and the lawsuits begin, the bean counters will sit up and take notice.
**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
There could be a number of other factors in the work conditions responsible for the reduced life spans of shift workers, particularly in the engineering world, but diurnal disturbance is the prime suspect. For example, Hospital Doctors, Nurses and Security Guards don't work with hazardous chemicals and processes yet they are equally affected. If only the unions had spent some time and money on supporting scientific investigation of the long term health effects of shift work instead of negotiating crappy shift pay agreements, we might all have been better off. As it is, I seem to have sold ten years of my life for forty quid a week shift pay back in the seventies.
24/7 working IS needed in many industries but there has to be some way of reducing damage to the health. Shift rotations must give longer rest periods between night duties so that diurnal disturbances are minimised. Perhaps longer holidays for shift workers may be required. All these will no doubt increase costs, but proper scientific investigation IS now finally taking place and I suspect that when the results are out and the lawsuits begin, the bean counters will sit up and take notice.
**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
Last edited by Blacksheep; 31st May 2002 at 03:05.
Cunning Artificer
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Age: 76
Posts: 3,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just been off to look up some figures...
Facts about shift work taken from the the academic literature review 'Shift Work, Health and Safety':
1. Shift workers are likely to die younger than day workers;
2. Shift workers are 40% more likely than day workers to suffer from cardiovascular disease;
3. After 15 - 20 years of shift work 20% of shift workers had cardiovascular disease, three times the rate in day workers in similar jobs;
4. 30-50% of shift workers suffer from indigestion, two to five times the rate for day workers;
5. Shift workers suffer from peptic ulcers at an earlier age and if they leave shift work, their peptic ulcers often improve;
6. Shift workers and former shift workers suffer more from anxiety and depression than day workers.
7. Although no definite link with cancer has been demonstrated, women who work night shift were found to have three times the rate of breast cancer compared to women who work days in comparable jobs.
This literature review was referred to by the European Commission in drawing up 'The Working Times Regulations 1998'. However the transport industries - Maritime, Aviation, Rail and Road Transport were excluded from the regulations limiting our working hours and governing shift patterns and rest periods, so they don't apply to us. If we must work these hours and shifts, the health implications suggest that shift work is under-compensated and that shift pay could need to be up to three times the rate for day work to compensate for proven reductions in health and life span.
**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
Facts about shift work taken from the the academic literature review 'Shift Work, Health and Safety':
1. Shift workers are likely to die younger than day workers;
2. Shift workers are 40% more likely than day workers to suffer from cardiovascular disease;
3. After 15 - 20 years of shift work 20% of shift workers had cardiovascular disease, three times the rate in day workers in similar jobs;
4. 30-50% of shift workers suffer from indigestion, two to five times the rate for day workers;
5. Shift workers suffer from peptic ulcers at an earlier age and if they leave shift work, their peptic ulcers often improve;
6. Shift workers and former shift workers suffer more from anxiety and depression than day workers.
7. Although no definite link with cancer has been demonstrated, women who work night shift were found to have three times the rate of breast cancer compared to women who work days in comparable jobs.
This literature review was referred to by the European Commission in drawing up 'The Working Times Regulations 1998'. However the transport industries - Maritime, Aviation, Rail and Road Transport were excluded from the regulations limiting our working hours and governing shift patterns and rest periods, so they don't apply to us. If we must work these hours and shifts, the health implications suggest that shift work is under-compensated and that shift pay could need to be up to three times the rate for day work to compensate for proven reductions in health and life span.
**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
Last edited by Blacksheep; 31st May 2002 at 06:22.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: South East England
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having just read the above items I feel I have to put people in the picture.
From Mainwheel
I'm afraid this is not quite the case, I believe Jet11 is refering to Big Airways who are forcing engineers to commute to LHR on a 7 on 3 off 7 on 4 off pattern, some live at least 50 miles from the airport and will have to do this twice a day because they will not be able to afford to relocate.
So this is not by choice as you put it Mainwheel.
From Mainwheel
I agree.Move closer,or find somewhere to bunk for 2 Days-2 Nights and then spend the 1 and 4 off at home.
It is your choice to commute,no-one else's.
.
It is your choice to commute,no-one else's.
.
So this is not by choice as you put it Mainwheel.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Down South
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Youch. Thanks BlackSheep. I knew shifts were hard on us mere mortals, but didn't realise my life would end sooner rather than later!! I'm but as young pup (just under 25) and have been working shift for nearly 3 years now. I've changed shift pattern to one which is a killer - and it sounds like in more ways than 1!! Are there any ideal shift patterns? Ones which allow you to not die 10 years before your misses?
I've heard bits and bobs about this transport regulation exemption thing, but I thought it ran out in 2004 or 5? Would be nice to keep up with the rest of the working world for once!! If I'm not being too nosy, what sort of shift pay do you chaps out there in the cold and rain get? At sunny Swanwick I get £3,500 - a fixed amount and is not a % of pay or anything like that. That also included bank holidays - we don't get O/T for those. Is this comparable with what, on average, the airline types pay?
I've heard bits and bobs about this transport regulation exemption thing, but I thought it ran out in 2004 or 5? Would be nice to keep up with the rest of the working world for once!! If I'm not being too nosy, what sort of shift pay do you chaps out there in the cold and rain get? At sunny Swanwick I get £3,500 - a fixed amount and is not a % of pay or anything like that. That also included bank holidays - we don't get O/T for those. Is this comparable with what, on average, the airline types pay?
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Paradise
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Blacksheep,
Where did you get hold of the info with regards to the report on effects of shiftwork? Apart from terrifying the life out of me (what little I have left of it!!! .......having been doing this crapp for 20 years) I am pursuing a post grad course in aviation human factors and this looks like an important issue to get into to.
Regards.
Are you currently in Borneo? spent a number of years in KK and liked it.
Where did you get hold of the info with regards to the report on effects of shiftwork? Apart from terrifying the life out of me (what little I have left of it!!! .......having been doing this crapp for 20 years) I am pursuing a post grad course in aviation human factors and this looks like an important issue to get into to.
Regards.
Are you currently in Borneo? spent a number of years in KK and liked it.
Cunning Artificer
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Age: 76
Posts: 3,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unable to fault,
A good starting point for academic research in this area is the Journal of Occupational & Environmental Medicine, which can be searched on-line at their website OEM Online Some papers are available in full [e.g. Karlsson,Knutsson & Lindahl, 2001, An association between shiftwork and the metabolic syndrome.] Others are available only in abstract but if you contact the journal and explain your research interest no doubt they will accept your subscription. For the less academically minded, you may wish to visit the following informative sites:
Shift work link to heart disease
Night shift link to heart problems
Nightshifts linked to heart disease
Nightshifts 'increase breast cancer risk.'
The Transport and General Workers Union are also informative [at last!]
The Working Time Regulations - A TG&W Guide
Drawing conclusions from academic studies is notoriously difficult as there are always conflicting findings and disagreement over the significance of particular figures, or even the methodology itself. Nevertheless, anyone familiar with research papers will soon find a central thread leading to the conclusion that shift work, particularly night shift, is extremely hazardous to the health.
In my own case I continue to suffer from increased tri-glyceride levels that are non-responsive to dietary intervention. Only medication keeps the levels under control. Studies have indicated that night work leads to increased tri-glyceride levels that do not necessarily return to normal after night work ceases. I did several years of permanent nights in the seventies to pay for life's essentials and then paid the price in the nineties when I had a heart attack and subsequently a bypass operation to restore the blood supply to my heart.
BTW, I mentioned in an earlier post that of the five people in my section who are over fifty, three of us suffer from vascular disease. In view of the research, it is noteworthy that all three worked long periods of night shift when we were younger. Of the remaining two, neither have ever worked extended night shifts and one, who still enjoys BP readings of 115/65, has never worked nights at all.
**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
A good starting point for academic research in this area is the Journal of Occupational & Environmental Medicine, which can be searched on-line at their website OEM Online Some papers are available in full [e.g. Karlsson,Knutsson & Lindahl, 2001, An association between shiftwork and the metabolic syndrome.] Others are available only in abstract but if you contact the journal and explain your research interest no doubt they will accept your subscription. For the less academically minded, you may wish to visit the following informative sites:
Shift work link to heart disease
Night shift link to heart problems
Nightshifts linked to heart disease
Nightshifts 'increase breast cancer risk.'
The Transport and General Workers Union are also informative [at last!]
The Working Time Regulations - A TG&W Guide
Drawing conclusions from academic studies is notoriously difficult as there are always conflicting findings and disagreement over the significance of particular figures, or even the methodology itself. Nevertheless, anyone familiar with research papers will soon find a central thread leading to the conclusion that shift work, particularly night shift, is extremely hazardous to the health.
In my own case I continue to suffer from increased tri-glyceride levels that are non-responsive to dietary intervention. Only medication keeps the levels under control. Studies have indicated that night work leads to increased tri-glyceride levels that do not necessarily return to normal after night work ceases. I did several years of permanent nights in the seventies to pay for life's essentials and then paid the price in the nineties when I had a heart attack and subsequently a bypass operation to restore the blood supply to my heart.
BTW, I mentioned in an earlier post that of the five people in my section who are over fifty, three of us suffer from vascular disease. In view of the research, it is noteworthy that all three worked long periods of night shift when we were younger. Of the remaining two, neither have ever worked extended night shifts and one, who still enjoys BP readings of 115/65, has never worked nights at all.
**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
Last edited by Blacksheep; 3rd Jun 2002 at 04:57.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The land of plenty
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Blacksheep
At your suggestion I only studied the links for the less academic (after all I cannot aspire to the exulted heights of Technical Services). Anyway I found the info rather frightening as I worked night shift for many years.
While I agree that the results are quite conclusive. I feel that some fault for the health problems in your work area must be the result of spending too many years working for a mis-managed company, that through lack of firm direction from the top, forces it's staff into a state of perpetual stress.
I have had some contact with your company and as another link on this site shows, it is surprising that any of the staff are still healthy and happy.
Thank you for some interesting reading.
Raster
At your suggestion I only studied the links for the less academic (after all I cannot aspire to the exulted heights of Technical Services). Anyway I found the info rather frightening as I worked night shift for many years.
While I agree that the results are quite conclusive. I feel that some fault for the health problems in your work area must be the result of spending too many years working for a mis-managed company, that through lack of firm direction from the top, forces it's staff into a state of perpetual stress.
I have had some contact with your company and as another link on this site shows, it is surprising that any of the staff are still healthy and happy.
Thank you for some interesting reading.
Raster
Cunning Artificer
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Age: 76
Posts: 3,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Exalted heights Raster? I've never thought of it that way before, but thanks anyway. You've made my day, you have! 
**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
