Engine cleaning.
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: Depends on the day
Engine cleaning.
Good day fellow Ppruners,
I have question regarding commercial aircraft jet engine washing. I am specifically referring to engine washing technology that can be used at the gate, as opposed to any engine washing that takes place during scheduled maintenance.
What I would like to know is:
1) What would be the most common method currently used for engine washing? Is this method effective? what are the new technologies in this area?
2) How often is it recommended to wash a jet engine?What would the minimum hours of operation be between washes? Is there any advantages to be gained in washing a jet engine after every flight?
3) Are there any studies which have been conducted on this subject that show clearly how much fuel consumption efficiency can be increased through regular engine washes?
4) Are there any limitations currently in place on this practice.
5) In Europe is this a service which is commonly offered at all major airports? Where would be the best place to go an see any of these systems in action.
Thanks for your time, I greatly appreciate any answers which you experienced persons can provide.
Br
Passepartourt
I have question regarding commercial aircraft jet engine washing. I am specifically referring to engine washing technology that can be used at the gate, as opposed to any engine washing that takes place during scheduled maintenance.
What I would like to know is:
1) What would be the most common method currently used for engine washing? Is this method effective? what are the new technologies in this area?
2) How often is it recommended to wash a jet engine?What would the minimum hours of operation be between washes? Is there any advantages to be gained in washing a jet engine after every flight?
3) Are there any studies which have been conducted on this subject that show clearly how much fuel consumption efficiency can be increased through regular engine washes?
4) Are there any limitations currently in place on this practice.
5) In Europe is this a service which is commonly offered at all major airports? Where would be the best place to go an see any of these systems in action.
Thanks for your time, I greatly appreciate any answers which you experienced persons can provide.
Br
Passepartourt
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 453
Likes: 0
From: Colchester
Engine cleaning.
Not a techie, but regularly in a lot of Central European airports.
I've never seen anything like what you are describing on a stand, or away from deep maintenance areas. I think you may be clutching at rumours here.
All our engines get boroscoped at regular intervals.
I've never seen anything like what you are describing on a stand, or away from deep maintenance areas. I think you may be clutching at rumours here.
All our engines get boroscoped at regular intervals.
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 775
Likes: 2
From: near EDDF
No rumour!
Lufthansa Technik provide a service called CycleanŽ.
More info here: Engine Wash (CycleanŽ) - Lufthansa Technik AG
Lufthansa Technik provide a service called CycleanŽ.
More info here: Engine Wash (CycleanŽ) - Lufthansa Technik AG
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 733
Likes: 2
From: Andalucia
When I was working at Manchester there was a designated engine wash stand that had segregated "ecological" drains. Had to do the washes on that stand.
Work though, usually a good increase in E.G.T. margin.
Work though, usually a good increase in E.G.T. margin.
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
From: EDDF
Engine cleaning
Here are some more cleaning videos, but they are all hangar cleaning.
Engine cleaning at the gate is very unlikely due to environmental reasons.
Unscheduled water wash takes place when performance is affected or stalls/surges have happened. Scheduled water wash with detergents is to clean compressor/turbine blades and coking residues at the nozzles and also reduces fuel consumption. Washing intervals depend on company programmes, engine types and manufacturer recommendations.
I hope this helps!
Easaman
Engine cleaning at the gate is very unlikely due to environmental reasons.
Unscheduled water wash takes place when performance is affected or stalls/surges have happened. Scheduled water wash with detergents is to clean compressor/turbine blades and coking residues at the nozzles and also reduces fuel consumption. Washing intervals depend on company programmes, engine types and manufacturer recommendations.
I hope this helps!
Easaman
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 773
Likes: 30
From: Hyperspace
We use Ecopower for on-stand engine washing.
They use a portable rig which collects virtually all the water used to wash the engines.
Its a long way from the old days of using crushed nut shells with a lance and trying not too get too close to the running engines!
They use a portable rig which collects virtually all the water used to wash the engines.
Its a long way from the old days of using crushed nut shells with a lance and trying not too get too close to the running engines!
Joined: Feb 2002
Aviation Qualifications: AME
Posts: 4,166
Likes: 1,096
From: UK
We used to wash B737-200 (JT8Ds) on stand at Manchester many years ago. We had a simple two stroke engine driven pump, a tank of water and a ten foot hose on a trailer. All very basic but it worked. We only did it in the summer obviously, but it was a regular night shift job.
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 775
Likes: 2
From: near EDDF
Originally Posted by easaman
Here are some more cleaning videos, but they are all hangar cleaning. ...
The link "Lufthansa Cyclean Engine Water Wash" clearly show the procedure at a gate position at the end of the video:
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: Depends on the day
Cheers for the responses guys
Thanks for all the responses, some great info.
The Lufthansa Cyclean system seems to be the one that comes up allot.
Easaman, thanks for the link to those videos.
Boeing_eng, The Ecopower system is an interesting looking product. And they have some great info on their website also, which I'm going to check out. The crushed nut shells sounds like a ingenious solution, must have been a great job preparing all the shells....a full day eating pistachio nuts.
Imperial shifter, thanks for your post, and the info about assessing the effectiveness of the procedure. I get what your saying about pleasing greenies, it'll be the first time I ever been accused of that
I would be very interested if anyone has any info on the procedure, like a standard operating procedure that is currently in use. Also if anyone has any info about the intervals between washes it'd be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
P
The Lufthansa Cyclean system seems to be the one that comes up allot.
Easaman, thanks for the link to those videos.
Boeing_eng, The Ecopower system is an interesting looking product. And they have some great info on their website also, which I'm going to check out. The crushed nut shells sounds like a ingenious solution, must have been a great job preparing all the shells....a full day eating pistachio nuts.
Imperial shifter, thanks for your post, and the info about assessing the effectiveness of the procedure. I get what your saying about pleasing greenies, it'll be the first time I ever been accused of that
I would be very interested if anyone has any info on the procedure, like a standard operating procedure that is currently in use. Also if anyone has any info about the intervals between washes it'd be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
P
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
From: Swansea
In my experience (military), there are two times engines are "cleaned";
The first being a de-salination of the compressor and turbine blades, where they are washed with fresh water for a minute and the engine is then vented for a further 5 minutes to expel any excess water which could hamper ignition on start-up and also cause flame-out.
The second instance, is a wash with an aqeous detergent which is again, pumped into the engine via an external rig for one minute, it is then left to soak for 20 minutes and then washed clean for a minute as with the previous instance, and the engine is then vented prior to start-up. Flame-out occurs more frequently with this option.
In terms of fuel economy...I doubt it would save that much to make any real discernable difference, the de-salination and industrial washes are done for the cleanliness of the engines, and they are also boroscoped every couple of flying hours to check for any damage to the blades etc.
Hope this helps.
The first being a de-salination of the compressor and turbine blades, where they are washed with fresh water for a minute and the engine is then vented for a further 5 minutes to expel any excess water which could hamper ignition on start-up and also cause flame-out.
The second instance, is a wash with an aqeous detergent which is again, pumped into the engine via an external rig for one minute, it is then left to soak for 20 minutes and then washed clean for a minute as with the previous instance, and the engine is then vented prior to start-up. Flame-out occurs more frequently with this option.
In terms of fuel economy...I doubt it would save that much to make any real discernable difference, the de-salination and industrial washes are done for the cleanliness of the engines, and they are also boroscoped every couple of flying hours to check for any damage to the blades etc.
Hope this helps.
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
From: EDDF
IFixPlanes
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: near EDDF
Posts: 650
Quote:
Originally Posted by easaman
Here are some more cleaning videos, but they are all hangar cleaning. ...
You should watch your own linked videos.
The link "Lufthansa Cyclean Engine Water Wash" clearly show the procedure at a gate position at the end of the video:
BTW: no detergents are used with this method...
To IFixPlanes
Basic hangar cleaning includes Nozzle Cleaning with Chemicals to remove Coaking residues from fuel nozzles.
Even wall nut shells are used for compressor/turbine blade cleaning.
Which airport will allow you to do your water wash at the gate?
Cheers
Easaman
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: near EDDF
Posts: 650
Quote:
Originally Posted by easaman
Here are some more cleaning videos, but they are all hangar cleaning. ...
You should watch your own linked videos.
The link "Lufthansa Cyclean Engine Water Wash" clearly show the procedure at a gate position at the end of the video:
BTW: no detergents are used with this method...
To IFixPlanes
Basic hangar cleaning includes Nozzle Cleaning with Chemicals to remove Coaking residues from fuel nozzles.
Even wall nut shells are used for compressor/turbine blade cleaning.
Which airport will allow you to do your water wash at the gate?
Cheers
Easaman
Last edited by easaman; 18th October 2013 at 15:34.
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 451
Likes: 0
From: Scotland
Many years ago I witnessed an APU wash on a Tristar which was performed on the stop cycle.The wash was performed with a chemical solution of 10% Rochem and 90% water - unfortunately the person who mixed the solution and filled the pressure pot was on leave and his relief filled the pot with 100% Rochem.There was a loud explosion accompanied by a large fireball and the turbines exited the jetpipe at high velocity, absolutely totalling the APU.Spectacular but expensive!
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 775
Likes: 2
From: near EDDF
Originally Posted by Easaman
To IFixPlanes
Basic hangar cleaning includes Nozzle Cleaning with Chemicals to remove Coaking residues from fuel nozzles.
Even wall nut shells are used for compressor/turbine blade cleaning.
Which airport will allow you to do your water wash at the gate?
Cheers
Easaman
Basic hangar cleaning includes Nozzle Cleaning with Chemicals to remove Coaking residues from fuel nozzles.
Even wall nut shells are used for compressor/turbine blade cleaning.
Which airport will allow you to do your water wash at the gate?
Cheers
Easaman
As i said before: Lufthansa Cyclean Engine Water Wash only use water. Why should an airport forbid this?
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 368
Likes: 0
From: brisbane, Australia
A look at Pratt's EcoWash on a Southwest 737-700
It works !!
It works !!
